Indian LCA Tejas Or Pakistani JF-17: Who Is Winning The Malaysian Fighter Jet Contract?

[Arulmozhi Varman]

Integrating missile will not be very difficult if plane has open system architect. It allows easy integration. In other case, the software languages can be a major hurdle in Integration. For example, an American missile is hard to integrate with Russian plane and vice a versa. Open system architecture makes the task easy. Same is the case with modular design. It is easy to replace a part in same kind of design. India strictly follow modular designing approach in its weapon development.

I was talking with respect to JF17 or the Tejas. Cm400 or KH series missiles were not designed with integrating with those fighters in mind. That thought of integration comes second and hence becomes lil.tricky but not impossible.
Even an American missiles can be integrated with Russian radars. It has been done during and after cold war with the cold war aircrafts. It needs software reprogramming. If the designer is all cooperating then anything can be done.

So 100 missiles were ordered in 2017 or 2018 and 4 years later it has not been delivered or integrated with Jf17 really?? This assumption of yours is based on what fact ? Traditionally PAF is always secretive about high end weapons and projects so it is possible that the weapon is ready to use but not yet unveiled to public.......

That's why I replied with lots of ifs and buts if you had read my reply properly. Integrating is just not software part alone. Vibration tests, dummy release test, missile firing has to take place. Multiple firings has to take place before one has to be declared the missile is operationally declared with an AC. Of course this is how normal development takes place.
PAF which shows off every new induction with firings etc to show India that they have them. Example is Raad firing. Reg CM400 there is no such evidence. Infact no one even knows if the ordered missiles are delivered. Or they are part of JF17 BLK3 order ,in that case it will be delivered when bk3 starts to get delivered

 

[Surya 1]

I was talking with respect to JF17 or the Tejas. Cm400 or KH series missiles were not designed with integrating with those fighters in mind. That thought of integration comes second and hence becomes lil.tricky but not impossible.
Even an American missiles can be integrated with Russian radars. It has been done during and after cold war with the cold war aircrafts. It needs software reprogramming. If the designer is all cooperating then anything can be done.


That's why I replied with lots of ifs and buts if you had read my reply properly. Integrating is just not software part alone. Vibration tests, dummy release test, missile firing has to take place. Multiple firings has to take place before one has to be declared the missile is operationally declared with an AC. Of course this is how normal development takes place.
PAF which shows off every new induction with firings etc to show India that they have them. Example is Raad firing. Reg CM400 there is no such evidence. Infact no one even knows if the ordered missiles are delivered. Or they are part of JF17 BLK3 order ,in that case it will be delivered when bk3 starts to get delivered

Response to my post without understang it.

 

[VkdIndian]

Yes it is possible and doable according to former USAF Vartan @gambit , but i think Pakistan currently lack this capability

That’s the point I was trying to make. If an aircraft carries a missile with a greater range then it’s radar range then it can’t exploit the full capability of the missile. Moreover, would anyone want such a situation unless restricted due to certain technical restrictions?

This was in context of BlK III carrying PL-15.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

That’s the point I was trying to make. If an aircraft carries a missile with a greater range then it’s radar range then it can’t exploit the full capability of the missile. Moreover, would anyone want such a situation unless restricted due to certain technical restrictions?

This was in context of BlK III carrying PL-15.

And no BVR can fire at its max range whether aircraft radar range support it or not, if any BVR fires at max range the enemy aircraft have a chance to out run it, All BVR are fire within NEZ range to increase the chances to hit

 

[VkdIndian]

And no BVR can fire at its max range whether aircraft radar range support it or not, if any BVR fires at max range the enemy aircraft have a chance to out run it, All BVR are fire within NEZ range to increase the chances to hit

BVR can’t fire at its max range is a wrong statement. It can be fired at its max range. However, tactical situation permitting it should be fired close to its NEZ to ensure higher probability of a kill.

Moreover, if NEZ logic is applied then no manufacturer should install a radar with more range than the NEZ of the onboard missiles. Is that the case? No.

If the current radar on an aircraft can’t match the current missiles then how would it meet the future enhancement of weapons? Upgrade the radar every time a newer missile is available?

All manufactures would try to ensure that the radar and the onboard weapons are adequately matched to ensure their full exploitation. The fact that Blk III radar has a lesser range than PL-15 is not by choice but probably due to technical reasons related to size of radome, power delivery, weight or some other issue.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

BVR can’t fire at its max range is a wrong statement. It can be fired at its max range. However, tactical situation permitting it should be fired close to its NEZ to ensure higher probability of a kill.

Moreover, if NEZ logic is applied then no manufacturer should install a radar with more range than the NEZ of the onboard missiles. Is that the case? No.

All manufactures would try to ensure that the radar and the onboard weapons are adequately matched to ensure their full exploitation. The fact that Blk III radar has a lesser range than PL-15 is not by choice but probably due to technical reasons related to size of radome, power delivery, weight or some other issue.

most sites state PL-15 have 205 km range and KLJ-7A has a max range of 200 km but you have to remember in air to air role KLJ-7A has range of 170 km against 5m2 target and most of your fighter have bigger RCS than 5m2 at the range of 170 km your MKI has RCS of 15m2, your Mig-29 has a RCS of 5m2 or more only your M-2000H and may be Tejas have a relatively low RCS, lower than 5m2 i think???

 

[VkdIndian]

RCS of various common aircraft is given here :-

Radar Cross Section (RCS)

www.globalsecurity.org

RCS OF Different Fighters

Please see interesting website on RCS of fighters and radar capability. There has been much discussion on this forum re this TOPIC. Situation Awareness

defence.pk

This thread has some interesting details on this aspect.

Yes SU-30 has a high RCS. All newer aircraft including Tejas are likely to have lesser than 3m2. Rafale is close to or less than 1. Tejas MK II will definitely be close to that of Rafale.

One can’t pick and choose the aircraft an adversary is going to send. You always prepare for the worst case scenario.

A little future proofing regarding onboard sensors including radars is done keeping in mind better missiles and weapons likely to be available later.Radar upgrades are very complex and costly affairs and can’t be undertaken every time a longer range missile is available for integration.

Why would one want to restrict the radar range if it was feasible to get a radar with a better range?
It is likely to happen only when there is a reason which is stated in my previous post.

 

[HostileInsurgent]

RCS of various common aircraft is given here :-

Radar Cross Section (RCS)

www.globalsecurity.org

RCS OF Different Fighters

Please see interesting website on RCS of fighters and radar capability. There has been much discussion on this forum re this TOPIC. Situation Awareness

defence.pk

This thread has some interesting details on this aspect.

Yes SU-30 has a high RCS. All newer aircraft including Tejas are likely to have lesser than 3m2. Rafale is close to or less than 1. Tejas MK II will definitely be close to that of Rafale.

Moreover, one can’t pick and choose which aircraft an adversary is going to send. You always prepare for the worst case scenario.

A little future proofing regarding onboard sensors including radars is done keeping in mind better missiles and weapons likely to be available later.Radar upgrades are very complex and costly affairs and can’t be undertaken every time a longer range missile is available for integration.

Why would one want to restrict the radar range if it was feasible to get a better range?
Not unless there is a reason as stated in my previous post.

AMCA will be a stealth aircraft, and it’s MK2 variant will be stealthier.

 

[VkdIndian]

AMCA will be a stealth aircraft, and it’s MK2 variant will be stealthier.

That is the reason the PL-15 and radar combo of Blk III doesn’t seem to be optimised at this juncture.

Hopefully some of these doubts would be cleared as the actual capabilities are known.

 

[HostileInsurgent]

That is the reason the PL-15 and radar combo of Blk III doesn’t seem to be optimised at this juncture.

Hopefully some of these doubts would be cleared as the actual capabilities are known.

But AMCA’s GaN radar will be something that will be a beast, reportedly it’s prototype fabrication has started.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

AMCA will be a stealth aircraft, and it’s MK2 variant will be stealthier.

canards is bad for stealth according to western/US design philosophy

That is the reason the PL-15 and radar combo of Blk III doesn’t seem to be optimised at this juncture.

Hopefully some of these doubts would be cleared as the actual capabilities are known.

It still effective against your all fighter jets, you no comparable BVR right now, only meteor on RAFALE is comparable to PL-15 and unless you will finish ASTRA MK-2 development and will start to mass produce

 

[HostileInsurgent]

canards is bad for stealth according to western/US design philosophy

AMCA doesn’t have canards, the aircraft in your profile picture has.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

AMCA doesn’t have canards, the aircraft in your profile picture has.

And iam talking about your upcoming MK-2

 

[HostileInsurgent]

And iam talking about your upcoming MK-2

Mk2 AMCA is same design.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

Mk2 AMCA is same design.

Don't be delusional i am talking about your mighty Tejas MK-2 medium weight fighter which will have CANARDs and i am not talking about AMCA or you're trying to save face