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Indian Helicopter Discussion

Buddy you forgot to add
100+ Hal Dhruv
50+ Mi17V

And ya i agree with ''Coldheart Aviator'' that Indian Army Strike Corp should be provided with fixed wing fighter jets for CAS role....

Now that's a bit too extreme. Let IAF handle its roles while let army handle theirs. Fixed wing nowhere is operated by Army. We don't need to again get into reverse-cross commands.
 
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I respect your intentions but the thing is that currently the IA is short of 10,500 officers on top of that you need Science graduates for flying.Now one aircraft requires more than 2 pilots...I dont have an idea of Military Aviation but airliners require 10 pilots for a single aircraft.

So things are not looking simple as of now...The Army would have to take some steps.

I don't know how the figures breakdown wrt shortage of AAC pilots but I would imagine that, if it exists, the shortage of pilots is less acute then in other wings of the IA. I agree the IA will need to dramatically ramp-up recruiting for AAC but I just don't see it as a major challenge and like I said the IA would have had to provide a valid and credible plan in operating these assets to the MoD or the decision would have gone against them. Look at the US, they have a significanly smaller population size but operate many more a/c than India and have little issues with pilot shortage. Of course the US India comparison is unfair for all but it is an example of what can be done. Maybe the AAC will have to recruit directly and not from other arms of the IA as I believe it does right now.


It should all work out.
 
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If the A-10 ever did come to India it would rightly be a part of the IAF-you can't have such slow,low-flying and lumebering assets moving foreward with the IA without significant back up from the IAF's fighters. Addtionally the operation of the Thunders would be counter the the IA's own policies and belifes wherein their aviation assets are deployed as foreward as possible. The A-10s just like the IAF's fighters need fully fledged AFBs to operate from and can't be operated like the AAC's rotary wing assets nevermind the logistical and training factor. The thinking just doesn't fit. And anyway the IA should not be pushing for fixed-wing assets these should remain in the possession of the IAF other wise the ACM's comments on "mini-air forces" is valid.


Anyways the A-10s will not be coming to India they are outdated and not required by India.

Thats a valid point but if the AF has established air superiority over the area then the Army can surely use these platforms and if it hasnt the Army can ask for help from the AF.

But thats thinking too far...and i dont think if at all india will ever get these birds.
 
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Now that's a bit too extreme. Let IAF handle its roles while let army handle theirs. Fixed wing nowhere is operated by Army. We don't need to again get into reverse-cross commands.
Sir don't you think that when you are fighting a war in enemy territory it will be better if CAS role jets are under your command....


@ColdHeart i came to know about that through John Shearer Sir post in this forum....So we are left with only 2 aircrafts for CAS role...BAE Hawk or LCA Mk1...
 
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from that report,Army is getting a lot of Rudra s.but now the question is,which heavy duty helos they will try to get???is more n more AH-64D are coming??? :azn:

There is nothing like a heavy duty combat helicopter, all combat helicopters are meant for the same few roles, all that differs is some part of their capability. Rudhra and LCH will share nearly all weapons and techs, with the difference beeing the design of the LCH that is fully geared for combat and not to carry additional troops + some more payload. The Apache will do just the same things as these, but with it's more advanced avionics, it will be more useful in modern netcentric warfare.

The best for India would be, if we can link the Apaches to our drones, AWACS as well as LCH and Rudhra. With them in recon and command roles, followed by LCH/Rudhra and IA ground forces, we would really have a very good armed cavalry.
 
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I don't know how the figures breakdown wrt shortage of AAC pilots but I would imagine that, if it exists, the shortage of pilots is less acute then in other wings of the IA. I agree the IA will need to dramatically ramp-up recruiting for AAC but I just don't see it as a major challenge and like I said the IA would have had to provide a valid and credible plan in operating these assets to the MoD or the decision would have gone against them. Look at the US, they have a significanly smaller population size but operate many more a/c than India and have little issues with pilot shortage. Of course the US India comparison is unfair for all but it is an example of what can be done. Maybe the AAC will have to recruit directly and not from other arms of the IA as I believe it does right now.


It should all work out.

It all comes down to literacy rates.The USA would have more people suitable for the job in the end than India and being a Pilot is not about getting a good % in your school or college but you should have the aptitude also.

Now coming to the shortage of officers...The IA recruits its Pilots from the other arms and when the other Arms are themselves short of officers then how do you expect that AAC is gonna be fine?
 
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Buddy, why a new threat? There are so many open threats with the same topic, it simply is of no use to split the discussions. :confused:
 
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Sir don't you think that when you are fighting a war in enemy territory it will be better if CAS role jets are under your command....


@ColdHeart i came to know about that through John Shearer Sir post in this forum....So we are left with only 2 aircrafts for CAS role...BAE Hawk or LCA Mk1...

I would rather have LCA with the AF....Apaches are quite capable and combined with LCH and Rudra it would be a deadly force.
 
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Buddy, why a new threat? There are so many open threats with the same topic, it simply is of no use to split the discussions. :confused:

Sorry sancho, i thought it gives a new dimension to the discussion & needs a new thread. i'll post it in already opened thread.
 
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The Union defence ministry after plenty of deliberations has finally decided to hand over control and operation of attack helicopters to the army, notwithstanding the stiff opposition from the Indian Air Force. This would mean that all future attack helicopters would be with the army and its aviation corps would operate, pilot and also maintain the attack choppers.

The tussle between the two Services over the issue had come out in the open when IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne said the country cannot afford to have these "little air forces" doing their own things.

Air Marshal (retd) B K Pandey (PVSM) explains to Rediff.com that this is something the army cannot be faulted with for having asked for control over the attack choppers.

"One must also understand the army's point of view. The idea of the army is that whenever they carry out an operation on the ground they would need intimate air support. The army feels that if the control is with the Indian Air Force the response time would suffer," he says.

"The decision of the government to hand over control of attack choppers to the army was made sometime back. When the army had procured the light combat choppers from the HAL it was pretty clear that the government was handing over some control to the army," he says.

"I do not fault the army's demand for control over attack choppers. An operation undertaken by the army would need to be carried out to precision. With their own air support, they feel that the coordination and the response time would be better. Prior to this they had to wait for a clearance from the IAF and all this led to a certain amount of delay," Air Marshal Pandey points out.

"However, this decision should not been seen as if the air force is losing all control. Out of the 22 Apaches, a certain amount of choppers would remain with the air force. Also one should not think that the air force would become defunct after this decision. The air force would continue to do its work such as precision attacks, destruction of radar installations and also striking at terrorist camps. The army would only have a direct control over choppers during a ground operation".

"This should also not be seen as a shocking decision. In the past too the air force has handed over control of its aircrafts. They have handed over their reconnaissance aircrafts to the Indian Navy. The navy today is also getting the P8 I which again would be under their control. Also the IAF had handed over choppers such as the Chetak and the Cheetah to the army."

"This in my view would be a step in this sequential development of events that have been taking place. The government of India [ Images ] did find the demand by the army as a legitimate one and hence handed over control of the attack choppers to the army," he notes.

"Now with regard to the ego clashes, I would like to say that there will be many. But it will not come in the way of an operation. Such major decisions cannot be taken based on ego clashes and the government has studied the issue carefully before taking such a decision. There is an objective view that needs to be taken in such matters of national interest. However, the army must not treat this as a victory over the air force. It is merely the acceptance of ground reality," he points out.

"In any major war it will be the air force which will commence action. The first step in a war would be to neutralise the air power of the opponent. Although we debate the lack of air power being used in the 1962 war and also the hesitation to use the air force during Kargil [ Images ], today everyone knows that air power will commence operations during a war. There cannot be any hesitation in using air power during future wars. Hence, let us not make this into an ego battle. It is an acceptance of the ground reality and the importance of each wing of the armed forces remains intact," Air Marshal Pandey notes.

Attack choppers for army: 'Acceptance of ground reality' - Rediff.com India News
 
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It all comes down to literacy rates.The USA would have more people suitable for the job in the end than India and being a Pilot is not about getting a good % in your school or college but you should have the aptitude also.

Now coming to the shortage of officers...The IA recruits its Pilots from the other arms and when the other Arms are themselves short of officers then how do you expect that AAC is gonna be fine?

Exactly, the IA is going to have to do some thinking and recruiting direcrtly from intake for AAC pilots may be an important and successdul step in addressing any pilot shortage that make occur.
 
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IMO all arm forces should merged into strike packets, packet that involve units from 'army,airforce,'navy if needed' , treating them separately might help better management but on other hand it come with such costs. and these can be very costly in case of conflicts, just saying.
 
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CAS requires fighters or aircrafts that can fly at slow speeds, can carry a variety of weapons in good numbers. That's why the A10 or Su 24 in the past were great choices for this role, but also why fast fighters like the F35 or LCA in our case are not good choices. These fighters can only drop LGBs from high altitude, to a target that will be tracked by ground forces, but that can be done with any fixed wing aircraft, so no need to divert fighters to IA for this, IAF can simply take some of the old Jags to support IA, while the multi role fighters will take frontline roles.
More effective will be, if IAF finally, forgets about it's pridewars with IA over the helicopters and finally adds some armed drones or fixedwing gunships:

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These aircrafts can loiter over IAs ground forces for a much longer time than fighters or helicopters can, support them with surveillance and a variety of weapons.
Especially the rapid build up of a capable drone fleet should be IAFs focus today and not some combat helicopters, with a very limited importance for them.
 
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I would rather have LCA with the AF....Apaches are quite capable and combined with LCH and Rudra it would be a deadly force.
Ya even i agree your LCA point and secondly i don't think Tejas due to its delta wings will be a good option for CAS role......
 
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