Indian General:India actually lost Kargil war: Gen Pal

[ramu]

tum log lad lad k mar jao ici argument myn k kaun jeeta kaun hara. jang myn jeet kici kee b nhi hotee

Haan yaar .. samjdaar ho .. lekin Kargil ki jang shuru kis ne kiya ?

 

[rangbaaz]

Haan yaar .. samjdaar ho .. lekin Kargil ki jang shuru kis ne kiya ?

thnku 4 understanding

jst on ur later part of the post - is py humyn 1 or point mil jata hy ladny ka k shuru kic ny kia ab agly 20-30 sal icy py time waste krty rehyn gy k shuru kic ny kia

cheers

 

[username]

Let me clear a couple of things for you...

a) You are right when you say P-O-K was not part of India but that does not mean we do not claim it...Yes it was never under our control but that part belong to us(as per Indian POV)...
b) It is a disputed territory and as per 48 cease fire both parties are supposed to respect LOC and resolve the issue amicably...This stand was further enhanced by Shimal Accord post Pakistan debacle of 71...
c) As per Indian POV current status quo is in India's favor and that's why we have no intentions of further escalating the issue...We are fine as long as there is no sponsored millitancy...This is the reason Pakistan is hell bent on making Kashmir issue an international issue and supporting insurgency
d) You are wrong when you say Siachen is strategically important...In fact there are tons of articles which tells that this peace of glacier has no significance...Its insignificance was the reason that during Shimla Accord(when India was a clean winner) strategist did not feel it is important to demarcate LOC covering this area...
e) Unfortunately what seems to be insignificant become significant because of the animosity between two countries...Both countries were claiming this area as per their own understanding and GOP started issuing permission for trekking expeditions...This created lot of hue and cry in India...
f) Both PA and IA started preparing to take control of the glacier almost at same time...We happen(intelligence inputs about PA plan) to reach there earlier and once you have your defences in place at such heights it is impossible to get you out from there....

Unlike popular belief among our neighbours India has no record of attacking any country right from her birth thousands years ago....anyways i think i have clarified few of the things here...Feel free to ask/correct me...

The same difficulty does not apply for Kargil ? But still we took control of it, this is what I meant in my post...
anyways thanks for clearing a few things...

 

[jeypore]

Indian general says what his country gained from war has not been consolidated

NEW DELHI: An Indian general, who commanded troops during 1999 Kargil war, on Sunday broke his 11-year silence to say that India actually lost the war in strategic terms.

Lieutenant-General (r) Kishan Pal, the then head of Srinagar-based 15 Corps, told a private channel that he did not speak because he was never convinced about this war.

“We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories, but lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily,” he said, when was asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later.

Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh. An armed forces tribunal has indicted Pal for showing bias against Brigadier Singh; former 70 infantry brigade commander, and belittled his achievements in the war besides falsifying accounts of battles during the Kargil operations.

Meanwhile, a Chandigarh-based former army major has also come out with a revelation that his inputs on Kargil ‘intrusion’, sent to his seniors as early as January-February 1999, were ignored and he was asked to stop sending such reports in writing.

Major Manish Bhatnagar, who participated in the Kargil war, said not only were his inputs ignored, later, when a full-scale conflict broke out, he was court martialled on another pretext and made to leave the army.

He said he had informed his senior officers about the heavy presence of hostile forces and had also apprised them of the large number of bunkers and occupation of vital points by them during his posting. “Later, when the strength of ‘intruders’ was found to be more than the perceptions of the top generals — resulting in mass causalities of soldiers — officers like me were persecuted to hide their wrongs,’” Bhatnagar said.

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\05\31\story_31-5-2010_pg7_6:pakistan::coffee:

Truely,

It is funny that this thread is still alive when there is simply no proof of any link.... It only takes a click and nothing opens!!

What that means Mr. Paksher you are a BS'er

 

[PakSher]

Truely,

It is funny that this thread is still alive when there is simply no proof of any link.... It only takes a click and nothing opens!!

What that means Mr. Paksher you are a BS'er

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


India actually lost Kargil war: Gen Pal

* Indian general says what his country gained from war has not been consolidated

NEW DELHI: An Indian general, who commanded troops during 1999 Kargil war, on Sunday broke his 11-year silence to say that India actually lost the war in strategic terms.

Lieutenant-General (r) Kishan Pal, the then head of Srinagar-based 15 Corps, told a private channel that he did not speak because he was never convinced about this war.

“We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories, but lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily,” he said, when was asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later.

Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh. An armed forces tribunal has indicted Pal for showing bias against Brigadier Singh; former 70 infantry brigade commander, and belittled his achievements in the war besides falsifying accounts of battles during the Kargil operations.

Meanwhile, a Chandigarh-based former army major has also come out with a revelation that his inputs on Kargil ‘intrusion’, sent to his seniors as early as January-February 1999, were ignored and he was asked to stop sending such reports in writing.

Major Manish Bhatnagar, who participated in the Kargil war, said not only were his inputs ignored, later, when a full-scale conflict broke out, he was court martialled on another pretext and made to leave the army.

He said he had informed his senior officers about the heavy presence of hostile forces and had also apprised them of the large number of bunkers and occupation of vital points by them during his posting. “Later, when the strength of ‘intruders’ was found to be more than the perceptions of the top generals — resulting in mass causalities of soldiers — officers like me were persecuted to hide their wrongs,’” Bhatnagar said.

 

[jeypore]

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


India actually lost Kargil war: Gen Pal

* Indian general says what his country gained from war has not been consolidated

NEW DELHI: An Indian general, who commanded troops during 1999 Kargil war, on Sunday broke his 11-year silence to say that India actually lost the war in strategic terms.

Lieutenant-General (r) Kishan Pal, the then head of Srinagar-based 15 Corps, told a private channel that he did not speak because he was never convinced about this war.

“We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories, but lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily,” he said, when was asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later.

Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh. An armed forces tribunal has indicted Pal for showing bias against Brigadier Singh; former 70 infantry brigade commander, and belittled his achievements in the war besides falsifying accounts of battles during the Kargil operations.

Meanwhile, a Chandigarh-based former army major has also come out with a revelation that his inputs on Kargil ‘intrusion’, sent to his seniors as early as January-February 1999, were ignored and he was asked to stop sending such reports in writing.

Major Manish Bhatnagar, who participated in the Kargil war, said not only were his inputs ignored, later, when a full-scale conflict broke out, he was court martialled on another pretext and made to leave the army.

He said he had informed his senior officers about the heavy presence of hostile forces and had also apprised them of the large number of bunkers and occupation of vital points by them during his posting. “Later, when the strength of ‘intruders’ was found to be more than the perceptions of the top generals — resulting in mass causalities of soldiers — officers like me were persecuted to hide their wrongs,’” Bhatnagar said.

I understand that goodbye waving (which is not going to happen), but likewise your original article has no bases, can you please explain about that...

Thanks I think I should do to you in future

 

[PakSher]

I think General Pal is the best person to speak on this, I just narrated his words. The mujaheeden were just a stunt. As per one of my friends that served in Kargil did mention that the fighting was intense in Kargil and closer to the end of the conflict almost 95,000 (Ninty Five thousand) Indian Troops had come to fight 1,600 (Sixteen Hundred) Pakistani soldiers. Had Nawaz Shareef not shitted in his shalwaar, the Pakistan Army had already cut off the main road to Ladkah.

But again I cannot have Gen. Pal change his opinion, if he wants to speak out.

 

[PakSher]

Though Pakistan fought covertly against the might Red Army of the USSR in Afghanistan from 1979-1988 and gained a lot of mountain warfare experience. Plus PAF is the only Air Force in the world that did actual dog fights with Soviet Air Force, the rest NATO, USA always played Cold War zero combat.

Pakistan Army taking limited part of the 1967 Arab Israel War. Operation Desert Shield, Desert Storm, War on terror, Somalia, Pakistan Armed Forces serve all over the world. Serbs raped thousands of muslim and Christian women in Bosnia and Croatia, but after the arrival of 8500 Pakistani Troops and 10000 Iranian troops they shut the hell up and went back to Serbia.

One good thing that came out of Kargil that the Pakistan Army blew the myth and might of the Indian Army. Plus it gave birth to new lions of Pakistan, one being Captian Sher Khan (Lion of Kargil) who received the highest medal of honor after being recommended for valor and bravery by the Indian troops who fought him.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karnal_Sher_Khan


Long Live Pakistan and I hope we all have a chance to serve as lions of Pakistan one day.

 

[intelarpit]

I think General Pal is the best person to speak on this, I just narrated his words. The mujaheeden were just a stunt. As per one of my friends that served in Kargil did mention that the fighting was intense in Kargil and closer to the end of the conflict almost 95,000 (Ninty Five thousand) Indian Troops had come to fight 1,600 (Sixteen Hundred) Pakistani soldiers. Had Nawaz Shareef not shitted in his shalwaar, the Pakistan Army had already cut off the main road to Ladkah.

But again I cannot have Gen. Pal change his opinion, if he wants to speak out.

Okkk I never understood one thing......Pakistan was winning the war then why Nawaz wanted to remove his General....He should have been awarded......

BTW my Cousin took part in Kargil conflict and he said that Pakistan didnt accept more than 2000 bodies and more than 4000 were actually killed....even Nawaz confirmed that more than 4000 killed in Kargil war...he also said if we were given the chance to cross LOC we could have overtaken wholo P..O..K......

I guess Nawaz Sharif the PM of that time has full information regarding kargil

 

[intelarpit]

One good thing that came out of Kargil that the Pakistan Army blew the myth and might of the Indian Army. Plus it gave birth to new lions of Pakistan, one being Captian Sher Khan (Lion of Kargil) who received the highest medal of honor after being recommended for valor and bravery by the Indian troops who fought him.

On the contrary it blew the myth that Pakistan can ever fight a war with India....That is the reason why PM of your country went to US......If they were winning..then Atal shd have gone to US for cease fire.....Indian forces shown their true bravery and reoccupied all the regions and that too in two months......


@Growler: I have a different Point. The mighty Pakistani army could not hold region which it occupied for just 2 months

 

[Icarus]

Comparing apples with oranges ehh??just because one famous picture is controversial does not necessarily mean that anything and everything have to be controversial or unreal.What were u thinking before comparing these two famous pics???


The night temperature may fall below freezing point in Tiger hill region,but the day temperature is normally above freezing point during summer.Moreover the assault on Tiger hill was commenced on 2nd July.Thats the peak summer time in that region.Dont expect a blanket of snow at a height of 4000 mts during that time..

Regarding picture quality and all...theres again a difference between photography of mid-40's and late 90's..hope u understand...Anyways ,Tiger hill was captured was Indian Army,and after that,there was nobody there to stop them from taking pictures...so I dont see any reason to fabricate anything...
As a matter of fact, u r the first person I am encountering who expressed doubt over the credibility of the picture..The only question is,r u plausible enough to be taken seriously by me or u r just here to do some cheap troll...a few posts from u and that will be clear to me...

It's snow covered through out the year by that I mean even during summers, many Indian posts are covered by snow during the winters, almost all of the kashmiri posts are, however, India never leaves those posts during the winters, the only reason India left it's posts in winter is because the temperature is unbearably low, like -50 degree Celcius at places like Siachen. Ask PDF member IndianArmy, he is a military man I believe, he will tell you.

 

[GUNNER]

I agree with Rangbaz. The ultimate losers are the people of both countries even though they may think otherwise.

 

[Areesh]

You are missing the point, if GoI feels it is important it will and can take it by force and hold to it example Siachin Glacier...

If PA feels it is important it can't take it and hold to it for long example, Kargil

At present GoI may not feel the importance in taking Pakistan occupied Kashmir by force... I don't have any insider information... but what I could think as the reason is that place might not be as strategically important as Siachin Glaciar...

On the otherhand GoI is concerned about people in Pakistan occupied Kashmir, if you want I could show you news reports where in GoI invites and says it could take care of people from Pakistan occupied Kashmir to come to our side of Kashmir...

You are missing the point, if GoI feels it is important it will and can take it by force and hold to it example Siachin Glacier...

No body is missing the point dear. In fact you are going in contradiction to what you said. You said to me that it doesn't matter that what is the reason for not maintaining the occupation of Kargil. The same applies to you also. It doesn't matter whether GOI feels or not. The most important is that they failed to do so since the last 62 years. They fail to regain the so called occupied territory. The reason may be because it isn't undefended or less defended like Siachin.

It isn't easy to occupy Azad Kashmir like Siachin where they were no strong proper defenses present at that time.

If PA feels it is important it can't take it and hold to it for long example, Kargil

I don't it is a wise thing to repeat same things again and again. Your argument for bravery of IA doesn't apply for Azad KAshmir.

At present GoI may not feel the importance in taking Pakistan occupied Kashmir by force... I don't have any insider information... but what I could think as the reason is that place might not be as strategically important as Siachin Glaciar...

This is a lame excuse. Their is simply no base in it that GOI isn't interested in taking AJK back from. Pakistan. If GOI repeats the absurd claim of occupied territory then it should have done something to take their territory back. The reason might be the same. They aren't getting any dream run in Azad Kashmir like Siachin.

On the otherhand GoI is concerned about people in Pakistan occupied Kashmir, if you want I could show you news reports where in GoI invites and says it could take care of people from Pakistan occupied Kashmir to come to our side of Kashmir...

Yeah I have seen those reports and I have also seen the response of people from Azad Kashmir. They just show their back to GOI for this offer. Any ways it is again a lame excuse that they care for people Azad Kashmir. They can't even take care of people from Indian occupied Kashmir let alone caring about people from Azad Kashmir.

 

[nForce]

It's snow covered through out the year by that I mean even during summers, many Indian posts are covered by snow during the winters, almost all of the kashmiri posts are, however, India never leaves those posts during the winters, the only reason India left it's posts in winter is because the temperature is unbearably low, like -50 degree Celcius at places like Siachen. Ask PDF member IndianArmy, he is a military man I believe, he will tell you.

A rare picture of one of the peaks in Kargil ,near point 5140,height being above 4000mts...as u can see,snow is there,but not entirely covered as u claim to be,on the basis of which u claim the famous picture of Indian soldiers in Tiger hill to be fake...

I have said it before and I will say it again,the Indian soldiers successfully captured Tiger Hill,so there is no point in faking any particular pic...

 

[Icarus]

I have said it before and I will say it again,the Indian soldiers successfully captured Tiger Hill,so there is no point in faking any particular pic...[/quote]

I did not, even once, argue that Indian soldiers had not captured Tiger Hill, they did and they hold it still. I was more of the view that this particular picture MIGHT have been taken somewhere else but it MAY have become associated with the Kargil victory. Because I remember when our forces withdrew from Tiger Hill, their descent was slowed by the snow.