Indian defence & religion

[Subramanian]

Is it your contention that placing lemons under vehicles, or not starting any significant journey or venture during Rahu Kaalam, and the like, will avoid Tsunamis and Earthquakes?

No,

That is the limitation of your brain to comprehend what i said,

doing all those rituals (i am against astrology and don't believe in rahu kaalam) is just to ask god to not show any obstacle in our quest,the forces that are beyond our help to act favorably.

By doing this,i keep my ego aside and realize that whatever i can do as a man,am still a mere mortal.

This humility is what you achieve.

By doing this,i remind myself to not let ego get in the way of doing the right thing.

Man is also an animal,

we are not robots,we all do the same things they do,

yet again,u react like a normal pseudo rather than understand the essence of what i said,

i dont blame you,it is the limitation of your education.

 

[Tshering22]

Some of the newly concocted rituals in the last few years may be nonsensical but whether Buddhist or mainstream Hindu, many of the very ancient ones have some scientific meaning that has lost its reason behind and its known only to some scholars. Although a secularist-run country like ours today doesn't seem to be following any of the Dharmic rituals though.

Don't see the need of such an irrelevant thread.

yet again,u react like a normal pseudo rather than understand the essence of what i said,

i dont blame you,it is the limitation of your education.

Oh believe me, these guys are all the same type. Point something like this out in the religions of their masters and they'd jump on you with a dagger and shout how you and me are a threat to the country while their masters are the biggest gift the country got.

 

[Tamizhan]

Some of the newly concocted rituals in the last few years may be nonsensical but whether Buddhist or mainstream Hindu, many of the very ancient ones have some scientific meaning that has lost its reason behind and its known only to some scholars. Although a secularist-run country like ours today doesn't seem to be following any of the Dharmic rituals though.

Don't see the need of such an irrelevant thread.

Ah ! welcome my dear oppressed Buddhist who gets offended when such small innocuous rituals take place in your place of work.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It's funny seeing these people who hide their own petty religious insecurities under the garb of science, logic, rationality and bring in all the minorities (Tamizh who have a separate festival Ayutha Puja to worship the tools of livelihood and Gorkhalis who are the ones who celebrate Durga Puja with gala and festivity in the Army) to put forth their own views. Such a see through. It only takes a little bit of scratching for the veneer to give way to the true feelings

Your argument misses fire. If I belonged to a minority group, you might be making sense. I do not, as it happens; it may surprise you but there are those who argue for the underprivileged. My own petty religious insecurities do not come into it, as I have no insecurities to speak of.

On the other hand, I do believe in the scientific method, the process that people of your persuasion failed to show that they knew, far less understood. None of your arguments, for instance, that Yoga was science of some kind, or any other linking with science, succeeded. Not surprising considering that you know nothing about science.

Each minority has its own way of celebration. It is not that Gorkhas celebrate Durga Puja and are therefore happy. If you were not silly and superficial, it would occur to you to ask why in that case they have differences with the Durga Puja celebrating Bengalis,a nd are pressing for their own homeland.

Does that at least make you understand that minorities feel oppressed in subtle ways, that painting with a broad brush and resting content in a thick-skinned satisfaction at having met some external criteria solves nothing?

I doubt it, but it is human to hope.

The same applies to the Tamizh who overlay their beliefs and desires on everyone and everything around them, including the Muslims and Christians. Has it ever occurred to you to ask your Muslim and Christian colleagues if they care about Ayutha Puja? Or have you gone ahead on the basis that if they don't like it, they can lump it?

 

[Tamizhan]

Your argument misses fire. If I belonged to a minority group, you might be making sense. I do not, as it happens; it may surprise you but there are those who argue for the underprivileged. My own petty religious insecurities do not come into it, as I have no insecurities to speak of.

I am well aware of the concept of Taqiyya.

You claim you have no insecurity, yet your posts reek of it.

On the other hand, I do believe in the scientific method, the process that people of your persuasion failed to show that they knew, far less understood.

Another goalpost shift ?

You have made yourself abundantly clear that you oppose these rituals because your religion does not sanction them and hence they should not be celebrated because a certain section of minorites feel 'persecuted' by it. Such colorful adjectives like "cultural hegemony" were also liberally used in the wake.Atleast be brave enough to stand your ground rather than hide behind veils.

Does that at least make you understand that minorities feel oppressed in subtle ways, that painting with a broad brush and resting content in a thick-skinned satisfaction at having met some external criteria solves nothing?

I doubt it, but it is human to hope.

I feel oppressed when I am not allowed to be peaceful on a Sunday with the nearby Church blaring its mass through loudspeakers..I feel oppressed when I am forced to wake up every morning to the call of Azaan..yet I dont go on a butthurt rampage like you are doing now. I accept these are a part of the traditions of the specific groups even if it directly assaults my senses and live with them.

So if we can live with these idealogies and their practises let the section of the minorites who feel insecure at the drop of a hat also learn to live with certain things. Its always give and take, not take take take.

The same applies to the Tamizh who overlay their beliefs and desires on everyone and everything around them, including the Muslims and Christians. Has it ever occurred to you to ask your Muslim and Christian colleagues if they care about Ayutha Puja? Or have you gone ahead on the basis that if they don't like it, they can lump it?

I've already explained how in our office we celebrate all festivites with equal ferventness and how none of us feel insecure about that..atleast not me when I see xtians decorating the office with stars and Christmas trees during December or Muslims doing namaz during Ramzan. I have xtian friends who come home during Pongal for that delicacy and don't mind taking part in the arti and bending their heads to the idols, voluntarily.

Or perhaps it required an open mind to understand let alone practise it ? Perhaps.

 

[Manas]

Oh believe me, these guys are all the same type. Point something like this out in the religions of their masters and they'd jump on you with a dagger and shout how you and me are a threat to the country while their masters are the biggest gift the country got.

Also these people have no voice outside the anonymous confines of chat rooms be it the virtual world or in the real world.

They know exactly what is going to be the public reactions of opposing to a Bhumi Pooja before the start of a project or an ISRO chief taking taking the replica of PSLV to Tirupati.

 

[Tamizhan]

They know exactly what is going to be the public reactions of opposing to a Bhumi Pooja before the start of a project or an ISRO chief taking taking the replica of PSLV to Tirupati.

Let's not feed his already insecure soul.

What happened with the PSLV was a private affair of Dr.Radhakrishnan and not in the official capacity on behalf of entire ISRO.

No one has any goddamn right to question his private belief.

 

[Subramanian]

I dont knw abt rituals,

As a brahmin i am expected to get up at 4 am and do an exercise for the breath and mind.

I feel that is just amazing,i wish we can let everyone do it,it is superb.

the feeling it gives u and the start of the morning is so perfect.

 

[LaBong]

If you want crush a lemon, coconut or your head, please do inside your house. One of the housemate use to crush coconut in front my room during my chennai stay until I gave him a piece of my mind.

And yeah, I'm rather good at Taqiyya-ness!

 

[Dark Warrior]

I think Cocunut breaking is more popular in South India.As regards to Tirupati Temple,most scientists in ISRO are from the
South and Tirupatis followers are from the South mainly.

 

[Manas]

If you want crush a lemon, coconut or your head, please do inside your house. One of the housemate use to crush coconut in front my room during my chennai stay until I gave him a piece of my mind.

And yeah, I'm rather good at Taqiyya-ness!

If Area in front of ur room doesn't belong to you and If you had given the same piece of your mind in front of me provably i would crush the coconut on your head.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I can only tell you this, discrimination is on your mind and no matter what arguments given you will think that way.

It comes to mind only when I read thick-skinned examples where the sensitivity of minorities is ignored. Not otherwise, not at all times. However, it is the major issue facing us today, and there is every reason for every thinking Indian to think about the subject. Rather than pretending, as some like to do, that all is well, and nothing needs to be done to improve matters between segments of society.

You have been hell bent on minorities only in your recent posts, before you were questioning the Scientific value behind them, changing gears much?

There were different issues raised at different times, hence I responded to them in that direction.

There was a contention that Yoga was a science, or at least scientific. That was what caused a diversion into science, the scientific method and scientific thinking. That same argument transmuted into an argument about the relative influence of the west over accepted tradition in the sub-continent. At that point, the argument changed again, and the discussion was focussed on the relevance of indigenous tradition against acquired concepts.

Was that contradictory or appropriate, considering that the arguments themselves had changed?

So too about minorities and the behaviour of the majority towards the minority.

When I said minority I did not divide based on Hinduism, Islam, Sikh, etc...

Neither did I. Please read my posts before jumping to conclusions.

I divided them based on the thinking, based on the value system in India that you need to co-exist..

Does this make sense, even to you? That minorities are classified according to thinking and according to value systems?

Which minorities have you identified in this manner? How many, for instance, are classified according to 'thinking'? What are the groups you have identified and divided according to value systems?

Take example of the month of Ramzan, I live in Hyderabad where a good 40% are Muslims and as part of their rituals they start their prayers early in the morning at 4 over loud speakers.. from the concept you go by The evil majority here the evil Hindus will not let them happen, how can they? However, the reality is different, we have no issues with it because that is something they believe in and have faith in.. what is wrong in that? I never counted myself as a majority and felt that it should stop..

Unfortunately, you seem to have not the slightest idea about what constitutes secularism, and what is needed to be done to create a secular republic. Secularism demands the total removal of religion from the public sphere. In this case, far from the Hindu having a role in restoring secularism, it is the Muslim who has a role. It is for them to discipline themselves, and not to inflict themselves and their religious practices on their unwilling neighbours.

I suggest that you think over what secularism implies, rather than pausing skin-deep, and coming to the wrong conclusions.

It is just as awkward to oppose the tyranny of the minority, for instance, in cases like this. It is important to remember that these compromises, the tyranny of the minority, is created because the majority has come to an implicit, and wholly illicit bargain with the minority: the excesses of the majority will be compensated by allowing the minority to commit smaller but similar excesses, and the faults of both should be compounded in this manner of mutual compensation. Only the common interest, the secular interest, suffers.

Even in cities, town where the Muslim population is a low minority the Ramzan month is the same.. I have not heard the majority there saying that it should be stopped, why should they, they have all the rights to have faith in what they like.. I have many Muslim friends who do not remotely think like you do..

This is precisely what is going wrong. Just because the Hindu community offends does not mean that the minority community should be given license to offend.

If a ritual is going on an Indian has all the right to either attend or not attend it is his choice, there is no force there will be no ostracism as you have imagined it in your mind..

Private functions, private rituals are one thing; nobody has a right to convert public functions into the rituals of a particular faith.

If as you say one person has discomfort, it should be rational, what is rational about saying that " I just dont like what you do, it effects me in my religious faith!"

Since you are evidently thinking with religious filters on, it is hard to grasp: it is the civic rights of the citizen that are being offended by conducting rituals alien to him, not his religious rights. This is a simple point, once you get away from the trap of thinking that religion is valid in public affairs, and realise that it has no place in those affairs whatsoever.

For any argument there should be a proper rational behind opposing something, you dont like the children playing and making noise in your neighbourhood, will you be right in saying that "Just because I dont like it, they should stop playing!" Stop acting like a jerk and evaluate what you are saying..

If children play and make noise near a hospital, will you not object? Just answer yes or no.

I'm more and more convinced by your line of argument that you are that rare category of people who think everything should happen based on your thinking..

Not really. I am not imposing my will on anybody. Merely presenting arguments. If you have counter-arguments, present them. If you do not, why seek reasons to justify your failure to argue your case?

NOTE: the division of Minority was based on thinking and not their religion... just with this statement your whole argument falls flat!

We have already seen that this is a fictitious category, which cannot be recognised. So much for your master stroke.

If we all did things only with cause-effect relationship,we ll be plain robots.

If you think the faith of the scientists have nothing to with their motivation to work,u r sadly mistaken.

Are you a scientist?

Good one,

The only reason i am forced to talk like this with a learned and wise old man like Joe Shearer is the ugly Marxist brainwashing that people like him got in their teens.

For your information, merely to place it on record, I have never been Marxist; always social democrat. I have also always opposed the Congress and the Sangh Parivar alike.

It is of no concern to me how you wish to categorise me, as I will continue to think things through my own way, whether they meet with your approval or not, but I do make an effort at disseminating information as fully and clearly as possible.

 

[notsuperstitious]

There is absolutely no need to get into what is good and what is bad, which cultural / religious practices are good beneficial etc etc. We already have a constitution and a national vision and that is secularism, hence in an official capacity any religious practices must be kept away from all official business.

Of course people can follow what they want personally, but there is, will not be any official sanction. Lets just agree on that instead of debating religion which is a futile exercise and essentially banned on the forum too.

No vendic chants while launching a new ship, if you know what I mean, it betrays our own vision.

Now don't tell me why state sponsors / subsidises haj or why there are religion based personal laws etc etc, I'm against that too. But of course we are mature enough to know two wrongs dont make a right, aren't we?

 

[Joe Shearer]

A lot of them may be acting civil for the sake of their religious colleagues.I am not a religious person but does not go around pissing on religious people beliefs unless they act like a fundamentalists.


And what a heck this thread is?????

Its title is Indian defence and religion and subtitle is LCA news and Indian defence and religion.Also it started abruptly from nowhere.See the first post.It is continuation of some other post.

There is no reason to go pissing on religious people's beliefs at all. But there is every reason to resist their imposing their mumbo-jumbo on the project as a whole or on their team-members.

Personally Joe, I wouldn't agree with having any ritual of any religion associated with any of our national projects but your argument that it is somehow done to antagonize the minorities sounds silly. These people are ignorant to believe there is significance to such rituals but there is no particular ill will against the minorities intended in my opinion. I wish there's France kind of secularism in India, but you also should well know, it won't work in India. I am also sure if a Christian were to head the project and if he goes to Church to get the grace of GOD for the project, Hindus for the most part would be okay with it.

There are no differences. I did not say that these rituals were intended to antagonise the minorities. If that is the impression you gathered, it was wrong. What I did say was that these steps were insensitive to the feelings of minorities, who are largely given no say in the matter. It is wrong to assume that everyone is OK with what is being done and to go forward. That does not imply that there is a deliberate policy of denigration of minorities, merely very thick-skinned behaviour.

 

[Manas]

Private functions, private rituals are one thing; nobody has a right to convert public functions into the rituals of a particular faith.

Nobody would oppose or prevent it if a muslim participant starts reading Quran or a christian reads relevant verses of Bible when rituals such as Bhoomi pooja was being done and rather it would be appreciated.

In fact ,now a days it has become a fad to call priests representing different religions to public inauguration to respect all sections of our society and celebrate the true secular status of our country.