In the ultimate analysis, India will survive as she is depending on whether or not the majority makes it possible for the minorities to breathe. The minorities include many more besides the Muslims: they include the religious minorities, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Jain and Sikh; they include tribal minorities, the tribals of central India and of north-east India; they include ethnic minorities, such as the Tamils, broadly, the Dravidians; and they include linguistic minorities, like the Gorkhali-speakers and the Santhals in west Bengal. Most of all, they include the caste minority, the Dalits.
The majority has to decide whether it will impose its beliefs, traditions and customs on the rest, and where this is to end. The majority cannot conduct itself in an authoritarian manner, taking for granted that its ways are acceptable to all others until there is a revolt.
This discussion has gone on based on the brute power of the majority to insist that its peculiar ways, not to say superstitions, have to be maintained, and to insist that lack of resistance implies consent.
The concepts which we are speaking here are universal, it happens everywhere and should be treated as such, reactions are not necessary when they are harmless physically or emotionally..
Where does this stop? You claim that these are harmless in themselves, and are universal. Have the minorities a right to ask for detachment from these rituals? Will they not face hostility and ostracism at work if they refuse to take part? Should minorities be judged to be willing to participate if they do not physically revolt?
I was not the one who said a drink would be just fine for keeping up the spirits.
What special pleading! The only remark made was about a waste of good whisky. Nobody suggested drinking whisky in public as part of a group ceremonial.
The foreigners have no problem with it and take part in it, the Indian higher management wants it, the employees want it. So who will say no ?
Whether Mr.Joe Shearer likes it or not, most believe in it and such rituals will continue. For instance just day before yesterday the Bhumi Puja for the four laning of the NH-69 segment from Mettupalayam to CBE was done and work was started.
The foreigners could not care less; they are here to achieve short-term ends. The people damaged are those who are directly or indirectly compelled to take part in these rituals and ceremonies.
For more details, commissioning of a new Air India flight ;
And that proves what exactly? That an abuse, a cultural abuse, continues?
1st. Agreed.
2nd. Agreed, but in this case how do you think that a model of the rockets comes in your or anyones way? Care to explain how it gets into your way in your experiences?
3rd, How can you ban something which is offensive to only a minority of people and others do not thing its so offensive?
Why is it needed? Have we asked ourselves why we need to go through these meaningful rituals, in spite of "offensive to only a minority of people and others do not thing its so offensive?"
You call it superstition, others call it tradition. Perceptions vary and and the perception carried by the majority wins.
Source of disharmony, for whom ?
Only for those who see it as a source of disharmony. Not for others, to whom it is just a simple ritual practised since ages.
Why it has to be institutionalized ? It harms exactly how ?
Why every vestige of Indic culture needs to be erased because a insignificant minority feels insecure ?
For the simple reason that if you impose your will on the minorities, you are validating the Two Nation Theory. You are in effect saying that there are differences, but the majority will have its way. This is gangsterism. The law is what the majority says it is. This is precisely what the AIML argued. This is precisely what Pakistanis and Bangladeshis want to hear, to justify their separate nationhood.
We might ask ourselves why Indic culture
depends on public imposition of this culture on the minorities.
I was actually asking you to point out what particular things you do not like.
I have actually never been so much into religion myself, if you dont like it you dont like it! But just because you dont like it does not mean majority dont like it too, it should be what the majority think. I would also like to tell you that it does not mean it becomes obsessive but these trivial things should not bother even a hardcore atheist. Minding own business actually bodes well
How cowardly can we get? So we buy our peace of mind by allowing members of minorities to fend for themselves?
That is the line of least resistance. "I don't care much one way or the other, so let's go with brute force. I really don't think it's reasonable for minorities to disturb our peace by objecting to anything." Wonderful. Because we can't be bothered to resist, the minorities must hunker down.
It will not and need not.
No one has answered how these small rituals harm anyone. If it does not harm anyone why care about it ? Because that practise is not rooted from that person's religion ?
I'll be brutally honest - why many people (mostly Abrahamaic minorities) oppose these practices is because they it feeds their insecurity by seeing Indic rituals being done and reminds them that Indic religions still play a huge role in the activities of day to day life of Indians. A totally unwarranted insecurity which no one can help. All the excuses about superstitions, tribal practises are nothing but a polished way of saying that.
Why do you not see that constantly reminding a minority that it is a minority is the best way to keep alive divisions in society?
Fazlu, were you there when the pooja was being done, if you were a part of that project, I will assure you that even the majority will not ban you, if you want to offer prayers there.... people who have faith would like prayers being offered no matter of which belief...
The point of course being that none should be asked to participate, there should be no ritual to require participation.
well you did not understand my post dear fazlu.
I did not call the minorities as insignificant. Because then you not have an Hamid Ansari lighting a deepa at the beginning of the function as he did some days back.
I used the word "minorities" in a different context there.Insignificant are those who see ulterior motives in these small quirky rituals that are a part of our culture and feel insecure/embarrassed at the sight of that.
These rituals have been a part and parcel of our culture for ages, they cause no harm- mental, physical- to anyone and as such there is no need for anybody to obsess over it.
Why can they not be eliminated? Why are its supporters so dogged about carrying them out? Have you thought about how important these things are to you, that you cannot tolerate opposition to them?
What about the tyranny of the minority ? Something like you seek to impose your opinion on everyone else ? Is it justified ?
No, no more than the tyranny of the majority is justified. Tyranny of neither kind is justified.
Which, btw, is exactly the reason why elimination of these rituals should be institutionalised: so that neither group can impose its will on the other.
Things cant stop for the sake of one person's insecurity. If they feel it is not worthwhile they can happily skip the event.
And that will not isolate a person, and put that person clearly out of touch with his colleagues?
Now the truth is coming out. So it is not about superstitions or logic or science. It is about a section of minorities feeling insecure at the sight of a ritual rooted in Indic religions.A totally unwarranted feeling on their part.
They are superstitious rituals, and the objection is to both the superstition as well as to the imposition of these on the unwilling.
What harm does it do to them if these rituals take place ? No one is doing a ritual for an asteroid hitting the minority homes or a swine flu hitting them. As I said some things can be taken as genuine but everything cant be held hostage to the whims of what a section of minority feel or may feel.
Doing a bhumi puja or breaking a coconut or having a small arti eliminates the minority. What a logic sirjee !
Your sense of insecurity at anything Indic, astounds me.
Why do you say that? I have never objected to Indic rituals, as you call them, Hindu rituals as I call them, being performed in pupublic during the Pujas, and to the minorities voluntarily going out of their ways, out of their beaten track and job locations to participate. It is only when these rituals are brought into the work-place, and imposed on the minority that the whole situation becomes objectionable.
Its not called tyranny and I was not referring to only Hindus, I am yet to be shown that a Muslim associated with a project was told not to offer prayers because it would offend the Hindu majority, if yes then I withdraw my argument. The best example for you would be to see Indian Army.. also read the official press release of INS Teg which will give you an idea of the microcosm in India..
Very simply, Hindu rituals are the default, and everyone is expected to go along with them. Why? Why should these be the default? Why not use organisational funds and resources to have multi-dimensional practices - the weak approach? Why have them at all - the strong approach?
Im sorry if one person feels uncomfortable and it is stopped then it will be called monarchy.. I hope you are not going there or are you?
It is not called monarchy. Monarchy is the autocratic rule of a sovereign. Using fancy words for the sake of effect is not a good argument.
Restraining oneself in the face of even a single person's discomfort is called secularism.
India has a fine balance which is being disturbed by the politics which ensnare them into cheapness.. In villages a Muslim cuts a goat for a Hindu ceremony to take place..
The fine balance is being increasingly put out of balance by the willingness of the majority to impose its will on others, and to compensate by allowing other minorities to do similarly partisan things. We cannot complain when our minority neighbours act up, because we have committed faults earlier ourselves.
Assuming that people who worship stones are stupid, is also wrong. This is how hate & disharmony spreads.
The typical lines of an agent provocateur.
Bikini dress code in swimming pool is also superstition.
How? Has it been enforced by one set of people on another? If not, it is not autocratic. Does it purport to serve some supernatural purpose in some explicit but unexplained manner? If so, it is superstition. If not, how does wearing a bikini become superstition? Just to be able to use a tu quoque argument.
Such dictatorial dress codes should not be allowed around swimming pools. People should be allowed to take a dip in dhoti, saree, choli, salwar and shirt-pants in whichever manner they like.
Bikinis are not imposed. Swimming costume is imposed, because it is functionally necessary, and there is no implication of compulsion. There is no implication of isolation either.
your hateful comments on religious people and their freedom is producing disharmony. You can't gag people and stop them to publicly display their beliefs and going to temple. If going to temple is offensive to you, then you coloring your car in Red/Black is also offensive to my eyes. Either repaint it blue/white or shove it in your backside.
Nobody objected to rituals in a temple. The objection is to rituals in a public place.
People should speak up against Red/Black cars, I hate these colors. Blue/white should be institutionalized. I am saddam Hussein, I will decide whats correct and whats wrong. Hindus are so stupid, tribal, backward(because white men said so). Blah blah blah.. (hitch *whisky*)
The difference is, as is clearly understood except by those who have lost the argument and now wish to be rescued, one set of behavioural compulsions is linked to the public arena, to jobs and to livelihood, and are superstitions associated with the religion of the majority, even though the superstitions have no impact on effectiveness.
PS: Drinking whisky pushes up spirits because its invented by white men, crashing champagne bottle on boats is also good as this tradition was invented by white men(inspired from Indian rituals, they needed something to feel better) but lemon crushing is a blasphemy, it should be banned. Bloody brown Indian backward ritual. How dare brown backward Indian tried to match Godly white men?
Drinking whisky in private is one thing. Drinking whisky as part of an inauguration ceremony is another, and is objectionable.
Champagne bottles to launch ships is highly objectionable.
There are many more rituals in Indian Army (one of the most famous being a "certain event" before any soldier embarks to Siachen), IAF and IN that I would like to share here, but I dont want to earn the ire of Mr.Joe or increase his already off-the-chart insecurity
Isn't it surprising that those who are so obsessed with these rituals that they make a separate thread of it, and cannot bear to give it up, even when told that these are offensive to minorities, should now seek solace in proclaiming the others the offenders?
This comment from you who I was believing to be scientifically oriented is so unappreciated
Why so? What is it that you are unable to explain?
I would agree to most of your comment but then if RSS is doing such things why do you give it so much of a thought, forget those goons.. as I said religious fanaticism is everywhere.. Its not the scope a religion has, its the scope created by people.. lets not forget that.. let there be no bad blood between Indians, we have a very hostile neighbor who is ready to cash in on exactly the same concept. From the start I have been speaking as an Indian, if you see my earlier post I even mentioned about the practice of muslims who drink water only while sitting...
How does one superstition cancel another?
Following the culture of the land doesn't equate to "tyranny of majority" imho.
Indians are religious in nature and they perform the rituals as they have always done. What is wrong with it? Many rituals are not even religious in nature. They are just supposed to bring good tidings.
Let's not take secularism to such an extreme that the people start hating it. India is secular because the vast majority of us want it to be secular.
Let's not create a dogma of secularism and become secular fanatics.
Honestly I cant believe we are having a debate on this insignificant topic.
When I first saw this thread I thought it is something concerning some defence concepts from the scriptures.
Who was it who created this strip? and populated
i saw this whole thread pass by, It was hijacked from LCA thread after joe aisha and angad_nsa jumped to the topic...
It was separated out, with what intention I do not know.
Quoted for the truth.
I'm also a culprit because I was the one who posted some recent occurences here. Mea Culpa
Such rituals represent philosophical values. In this case, harmony with Nature, which is an integral part of the Indic world-view.
I notice your post was attacked viciously by an enraged fanatic, in this very thread.
What philosophical values, and why is it necessary to choose the philosophical values of the majority community exclusively?
