Indian chopper forced to land in Olding, Pakistan, after violating airspace

[RazPaK]

c'mon.. Do you think IAF considers PAF such fools that they would take that information on face value without verification.. Nah!!

My father was in the airforce for 25 years. He says that these operations are conducted on a regular basis by both countries. I rather take my father's word than the media's words.

 

[Sapper]

The question here should be the adequency of amplitude of responce.

In current case, there could have been five option after seeing an enemy bogey on radar ...

1. Do nothing, the heli finds its bearing after a while and returns back on its own.
2. Do nothing, the heli keeps lost and runs out of fuel and crashes (and believe me many heli's end up crashed this way than you can imagine).
3. Scramble fighters, force heli down, inquisitive questioning and intelligence gathering, let heli and crew go.
4. Scramble fighters, force heli down, blame an Indian plot, keep heli and let crew go after bitter questioning.
5. Scramble fighters, shoot to kill on identification of bogey as bandit.

Now their consequences ...

1. India might think (rightly or wrongly) that we are ill-equipped to respond quick enough and adventurous minded people may start planning an incursion based on this intentional or unintentional breach of airspace. Do remember that in 1984, India captured many miles of Siachin Glacier previous under Pak-Army's summer control, because better equipped (with winter gear) Indian Patrols were not met with adequent counter responce. Indians posted troops on Siachin, and Pakistan responded, and the whole Siachin mess ensued. Same thing happened in Kargil when 3 man patrol from Pakistani side ventured deep into Kargil sector and was met with no enemy presence, and then they and 8 more who came three days later managed to set up an interim post for summer. On finding this out Indian's tried to capture back and all hell broke loose.
2. India might or might not blame it on Pakistan for shooting it down, and tension rise on both sides, when the next encounter being bloddy on purpose.
3. Show intent of responce, a little arm twisting and let it go ... coolness prevails ... and adventures like Siachin and Kargil can be prevented.
4. A bit too much responce for peace time, showing intent that we are hell bent to escalate matters more than you are ready for. If this kind of Tit-for-Tat goes on for long enough ... war is inevitable, not later but much much sooner.
5. No body messes with us, we are always at war. But that would eventually end up in more Fokker-PK-404 like incidents (and yes i came to know about it directly from my then In-Service father). Confirming sight of target to identify as bogey or bandit has never been compromised in PAF, even during the Russian-Afghan intrusions during 80's.

On another note ... don't let the appearances decieve. Do remember that the same Alouette III (we call it Llama, Indians call it Cheetah) was responcible for delivering us the Naveed Top in Chumik ridges in April, 1989.

The only reason to explain all above is only to emphecise to both Indian and Pakistani readers here that the "Amplitude of Responce" was absolutely perfect ... not too much ... but not too little as well ... quenching any adventurism ... and preventing any misadventures.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Tshering22]

1. India might think (rightly or wrongly) that we are ill-equipped to respond quick enough and adventurous minded people may start planning an incursion based on this intentional or unintentional breach of airspace

I am assuming that you've never come out of Lahore your entire life, that you don't understand the circumstances. Since I live in a terrain that is similar to the place where the incident occurred, allow me to explain. The terrain consists of inhospitable terrain, bitter cold and skin slashing icy winds. SO much so that the air is insanely thin, which is a problem for jets, helicopters and people as well. The winds can hit easily upwards of 30 miles an hour or worse, as if the freezing conditions are not enough.

Now you must have read this a lot in travel magazines but living in such a terrain, I tell you it is simply not easy. Even USAF would find it impossible to handle this weather. The helicopter and that too Aloutte IIIs was pretty light... more to do with observation jobs than anything. With thin air and hostile winds, it is easy to stray in the territory. And for the appropriate return, appreciate it.

The only reason to explain all above is only to emphecise to both Indian and Pakistani readers here that the "Amplitude of Responce" was absolutely perfect ... not too much ... but not too little as well ... quenching any adventurism ... and preventing any misadventures.

This was the standard ROE as per what countries do in case of unintentional intrusions.

 

[notorious_eagle]

My father was in the airforce for 25 years. He says that these operations are conducted on a regular basis by both countries. I rather take my father's word than the media's words.

Well those days are long gone buddy.

If the Indians really wanted to test our response time and suck up our signals, they would have sent a Mirage 2000 or MIG21 aircraft with low RCS to test out PAF's response time with Phalcons in the area trying to suck out any signals from PAF's radars. Sending out a helicopter to test our response time does not makes any sense what so ever. In my opinion it was an honest mistake, flying in those conditions is absolutely treacherous and even the most skilled helicopter pilot will find it hard to navigate in those mountains.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

IAF has grounded all the four officers (a colonel & 2 majors among them) who defied Pakistan airspace on that day

 

[VelocuR]

Recently India want to purchase new helicopter US AH-64D Block IIIs, it will replace choppers near futures.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/136852-us-ah-64d-wins-indian-attack-chopper-deal-mi-28n-looses-rian.html

Awesome deal, this is same helicopter by NATO violated Pakistan airspace frequently !

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...ir-space-pakistani-officials.html#post2226741

(Why didn't PAF push NATO helicopters to force land....just like Indian chopper recent one?)

 

[ares]

Recently India want to purchase new helicopter US AH-64D Block IIIs, it will replace choppers near futures.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/136852-us-ah-64d-wins-indian-attack-chopper-deal-mi-28n-looses-rian.html

Awesome deal, this is same helicopter by NATO violated Pakistan airspace frequently !

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...ir-space-pakistani-officials.html#post2226741

(Why didn't PAF push NATO helicopters to force land....just like Indian chopper recent one?)

Because it wasn't PAF which made it land but it was bad weather and low fuel that did.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

ISPR confirms that jets were dispatched to establish radio/visual contact with the aircraft

these talks in indian media about the chopper landing on its own are garbage.....failed face saving.

 

[VelocuR]

Because it wasn't PAF which made it land but it was bad weather and low fuel that did.

Lol, nope. PAF gave instructions to Indian chopper pilots in order to follow them, otherwise they will shoot down if chopper try escape.

Pakistan scrambled jet to intercept Indian chopper

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...ays-into-***-is-returned/Article1-760632.aspx

Pakistan army said would have been shot down had the crew not followed its instructions

No, it is not mistake. Both of our neighbours didn't make mistake for many years. Yep, it is force down order by PAF. At least, you should appreciate your crews and pilots are back safe home.

 

[RazPaK]

Well those days are long gone buddy.

If the Indians really wanted to test our response time and suck up our signals, they would have sent a Mirage 2000 or MIG21 aircraft with low RCS to test out PAF's response time with Phalcons in the area trying to suck out any signals from PAF's radars. Sending out a helicopter to test our response time does not makes any sense what so ever. In my opinion it was an honest mistake, flying in those conditions is absolutely treacherous and even the most skilled helicopter pilot will find it hard to navigate in those mountains.

Why the risk? The helicopter being unarmed was it's biggest strength. You are a think tank, but I don't understand how you fail to comprehend this.

 

[ares]

ISPR confirms that jets were dispatched to establish radio/visual contact with the aircraft

these talks in indian media about the chopper landing on its own are garbage.....failed face saving.

Yes jets were dispatched not once but twice, second time they were to escort chopper out but the first time they were dispatched after the chopper had already landed..it was pakistani army outpost and not PAF who provided the first visual confirmation of the chopper.

It will hardly be face saving Indians, to claim the chopper landed on a Pakistani helipad out of its own stupidity..but it will surely be face saving for Pakistanis to claim the above as oppose to the alternate being, that their radars failed to pickup chopper second time in a row.

 

[Sapper]

I am assuming that you've never come out of Lahore your entire life, that you don't understand the circumstances. Since I live in a terrain that is similar to the place where the incident occurred, allow me to explain. The terrain consists of inhospitable terrain, bitter cold and skin slashing icy winds. SO much so that the air is insanely thin, which is a problem for jets, helicopters and people as well. The winds can hit easily upwards of 30 miles an hour or worse, as if the freezing conditions are not enough.

Now you must have read this a lot in travel magazines but living in such a terrain, I tell you it is simply not easy. Even USAF would find it impossible to handle this weather. The helicopter and that too Aloutte IIIs was pretty light... more to do with observation jobs than anything. With thin air and hostile winds, it is easy to stray in the territory. And for the appropriate return, appreciate it.



This was the standard ROE as per what countries do in case of unintentional intrusions.

Well Dear,

I have been above 16,500 ... even smoked there, which is damn hard to do since you cant even light your lighter in strong winds and regular match would just hiss and flame-out without any flame ... spent some time at 14,400 and above 13,500 on numerous occasions, above 8000 is a lost count ... just climbed Ansoo Lake in rain less than a month ago as well, just for fun (people familiar with Saif-ul-Muluk might know). Ahhh, almost forgot to mention that my father has the Koh-Pema (Mountaineer) badge, yea the red-trainglular one which one gets when you serve above 19,500 feet. Thats outside Lahore enough for you kido.

Also been to Loc several times ... infact lived next to LOC (infact LAC in some areas) from where Indian posts were so close you could see Indians inside their posts ... and know very well how helis operate there, for how long and at what altitude, thats why i made it clear earlier that most heli crashes in Northern areas are due to simple visibility reasons.

The heli must have been lost due to poor visibility, and confirmed so by the Pak-Army guys who interrogated the crew, otherwise they wouldn't have let them go this easy.

For those who do not know, helis are flown in valleys instead of going over the top, because, 1. Over the top there is more wind and clouds (zero-visibility), 2. In contrast to Aircrafts, Helis get less efficient the higher they go due to lack of air pressure, 3. Some, infact many of the high tops in the region are simply beyond heli service cieling of the helis employed by both India and Pakistan (except Ecureuil/Fennec). Gps is helpful, but while following a valley pattern, keeping low to avoid clouds, pilot has to fly on visual ques rather that crow flight pattern. Getting lost is very easy as even a misturn into the wrong valley might take you into an altogether different direction, especially when the surrounding mountains are not even visible at all.

Kido ... you are in uncharted territories here, have a look at your Gps, otherwise you might end up lost.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

the radars clearly did their job just fine, as did coordination between both services

and either way, indian army aviation looks pretty dumb when


a.) they are forced to land in hostile territory

and/or

b.) they are unable to navigate properly; i dont accept the whole "unruly weather" argument, because any professional pilot first analyzes weather conditions prior to 'venturing out'


it was a mistake made; Pakistan knows it was a mistake and nothing malicious --and thats why your Colonel, 2 majors and techy were released just hours later.


it is indians that are punishing them.....all 4 of them have been 'grounded'

 

[ares]

the radars clearly did their job just fine, as did coordination between both services

and either way, indian army aviation looks pretty dumb when


a.) they are forced to land in hostile territory

and/or

b.) they are unable to navigate properly; i dont accept the whole "unruly weather" argument, because any professional pilot first analyzes weather conditions prior to 'venturing out'


it was a mistake made; Pakistan knows it was a mistake and nothing malicious --and thats why your Colonel, 2 majors and techy were released just hours later.


it is indians that are punishing them.....all 4 of them have been 'grounded'

I am actually surprised at the above bolded.
I have been working on radars for a long time but do tell how do you make radars work in valleys surrounded by mountains ..especially since choppers do not fly at great heights. And ground based radars deployed at the base of the valley are useless for detecting low flying targets ??

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

in this particular context, you do raise a valid point.

broadly stated however, the problem was rectified satisfactorily