Indian Army ORBAT Against Pakistan-Visualised

[Joe Shearer]

Does it say who Sita’s father was in Ramayan ?

That quip is used to indicate utter confusion. Someone who has read the Ramayan should know very well that Sita was a gently brought up female, a princess, and should not have to ask the very silly question, "Who was his (Sita's) child?"

Sita's father was King Janaka of Mithila, a part of Hindustan that still exists, and that speaks a language cognate to mine (if they speak slowly, I can understand them; if I speak slowly, in the current standard dialect, not my own ancestral Dhakai or Barisali, they can understand me). In modern life, if you encounter a Jha, he is definitely a Maithil; some Mishras are also Maithil.

If you open a separate thread, I would be happy to talk about these two epics. My name in real life is from this epic. I actually like the Mahabharata better; it is a far better story.

 

[surya kiran]

That quip is used to indicate utter confusion. Someone who has read the Ramayan should know very well that Sita was a gently brought up female, a princess, and should not have to ask the very silly question, "Who was his (Sita's) child?"

Sita's father was King Janaka of Mithila, a part of Hindustan that still exists, and that speaks a language cognate to mine (if they speak slowly, I can understand them; if I speak slowly, in the current standard dialect, not my own ancestral Dhakai or Barisali, they can understand me). In modern life, if you encounter a Jha, he is definitely a Maithil; some Mishras are also Maithil.

If you open a separate thread, I would be happy to talk about these two epics. My name in real life is from this epic. I actually like the Mahabharata better; it is a far better story.

When was a kid, my grandad said one needs to read in the following sequence
a. Purana
b. Mahabharata
c. Ramayana
d. Upanishad
e. Vedas
His reasoning was that concepts get more abstract as you proceed. Though the first story books I remember were Jataka followed by Arabian Nights.

 

[Tomcats]

For Pak, its not as easy as you are implying (one link break, the whole chain breaks). We are talking about millions of men, spread over a wide geographical area, with the terrain being used to its fullest. Its not that easy to break a link of the chain. Large formations having thousands of troops take time to deploy, not a single day.

Yeah i would imagine there would be a defense in depth and reserves accordingly for each sector available incase of any breakthrough, to plug gaps etc.

will require an enormous strengthening of the Indian Army logistical system. Enormous, and multi-modal.

(Excuse my tangential reply) This is where i think India has failed with regards to China which is why the current crisis occurred, while India was picking up pace on Infrastructure construction it was at a slower pace comparatively and bogged down due to issues like red tape, complacency etc. As a result China has been able to assert itself in its already captured territory and send the message that Aksai Chin is no longer viable for India to retake as China is able to maintain a more permanent presence. From a candid conversation i had with a friend, a major issue lies within the Indian government/Mil where PMO has one direction, NSA has another, COAS another and CDS too etc. Reminds me of the old adage 'too many cooks spoil the broth'.
On the other hand, India's mountain warfare experience is a notable edge, their experience as such can mitigate some of their issues to a certain extent. If i can recall correctly India also has a good amount of Air force Infrastructure as well as bases, perhaps better than China in terms of distribution and numbers, though China is rapidly upgrading in places like Hotan, Lhasa and constructing new airbases such as Tingri, Tashkorgan etc.

Tracking China's Sudden Airpower Expansion On Its Western Border

Satellite images raise concerns over Beijing's incredible pace of expansion of its airpower infrastructure along its western flank.

www.thedrive.com

But again this is based upon my limited understanding of the conflict, the paper you posted of Tarapore seems quite nuanced though i havent heard the best things about him due to him being associated with Ajai Shukla. Nonetheless will definitely give it a read.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

That quip is used to indicate utter confusion. Someone who has read the Ramayan should know very well that Sita was a gently brought up female, a princess, and should not have to ask the very silly question, "Who was his (Sita's) child?"

Sita's father was King Janaka of Mithila, a part of Hindustan that still exists, and that speaks a language cognate to mine (if they speak slowly, I can understand them; if I speak slowly, in the current standard dialect, not my own ancestral Dhakai or Barisali, they can understand me). In modern life, if you encounter a Jha, he is definitely a Maithil; some Mishras are also Maithil.

If you open a separate thread, I would be happy to talk about these two epics. My name in real life is from this epic. I actually like the Mahabharata better; it is a far better story.

In Urdu we have a similar quip which goes like " sari raat kahani suntay rehy and suba poocha zulekha mard thi ya auraat".
It's a reference to story of Prophet Yousaf(known as Joseph in other Abrahamic faiths) and Zulekha

Yusuf and Zulaikha - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Joe Shearer]

When was a kid, my grandad said one needs to read in the following sequence
a. Purana
b. Mahabharata
c. Ramayana
d. Upanishad
e. Vedas
His reasoning was that concepts get more abstract as you proceed. Though the first story books I remember were Jataka followed by Arabian Nights.

Not to overrule Grandpa, but I would put the Panchatantra first, then the Ramayana, then the Mahabharata, and the Upanishads and the Rg Veda (not the other three) as options.

We shouldn't be writing this here.

Let me get to your profile and write there.

(Excuse my tangential reply) This is where i think India has failed with regards to China which is why the current crisis occurred, while India was picking up pace on Infrastructure construction it was at a slower pace comparatively and bogged down due to issues like red tape, complacency etc. As a result China has been able to assert itself in its already captured territory and send the message that Aksai Chin is no longer viable for India to retake as China is able to maintain a more permanent presence. From a candid conversation i had with a friend, a major issue lies within the Indian government/Mil where PMO has one direction, NSA has another, COAS another and CDS too etc. Reminds me of the old adage 'too many cooks spoil the broth'.

@T90TankGuy

Ironic, isn't it? I refuse to respond to that passage above on the grounds that the answer may incriminate me.

 

[JX-1]

It looks like the Pakistani strategy will be to seize Southern Kashmir and launch small, rapid offensives in Punjab, before the international community puts an end to the war.

Pakistan has been planning and fighting offensives in this area since 1965 and has been successful every time. In 2001-2002, it again looked like the plan was to launch an offensive into Jammu.

 

[JX-1]

Also, I've compiled all this information onto a google maps style map w/ NATO symbology. However, PDF doesn't let me upload images (external hosting sites don't work either). @LeGenD Any help pls?

 

[JX-1]

Also, I've compiled all this information onto a google maps style map w/ NATO symbology.

@Desert Fox 1 @PanzerKiel @Joe Shearer and others:

---

Kashmir:

North Punjab:

South Punjab:

Sindh:

North India:

South India:

Zoomed Out:

---

Feedback is welcome.

Note:
Some Indian independent brigades in Punjab do not have their parent unit labelled
Some units were slightly shifted to make labels more readable
The locations of these FCNA units is unknown: 61st Infantry Brigade, Independent Engineering Brigade, Independent Signal Brigade. They have been placed in Gilgit, while 61st Infantry Brigade was placed next to to 62nd Infantry Brigade.
Artillery symbols do not accurately depict sub types of artillery (MLRS, Howitzer, SP etc.)

 

[farooqbhai007]

@Desert Fox 1 @PanzerKiel @Joe Shearer and others:

---

Kashmir:
View attachment 830491
North Punjab:
View attachment 830492
South Punjab:
View attachment 830493
Sindh:
View attachment 830500
North India:
View attachment 830501
South India:
View attachment 830508
Zoomed Out:
View attachment 830509

---

Feedback is welcome.

Note:
Some Indian independent brigades in Punjab do not have their parent unit labelled
Some units were slightly shifted to make labels more readable
The locations of these FCNA units is unknown: 61st Infantry Brigade, Independent Engineering Brigade, Independent Signal Brigade. They have been placed in Gilgit, while 61st Infantry Brigade was placed next to to 62nd Infantry Brigade.
Artillery symbols do not accurately depict sub types of artillery (MLRS, Howitzer, SP etc.)

On the Indian side following major cantt are also present , Jaisalmer , Jaipur , Jamnagar , Nasirabad but not labelled.

 

[JX-1]

On the Indian side following major cantt are also present , Jaisalmer , Jaipur , Jamnagar , Nasirabad but not labelled.

I'm not aware of the units over there. The data is taken from the original post. I will look into this.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It looks like the Pakistani strategy will be to seize Southern Kashmir and launch small, rapid offensives in Punjab, before the international community puts an end to the war.

Pakistan has been planning and fighting offensives in this area since 1965 and has been successful every time. In 2001-2002, it again looked like the plan was to launch an offensive into Jammu.

This is beyond my pay-grade.

Also, I've compiled all this information onto a google maps style map w/ NATO symbology. However, PDF doesn't let me upload images (external hosting sites don't work either). @LeGenD Any help pls?

Would it be possible to send it to me by e-mail? Could I experiment with it?

 

[JX-1]

Would it be possible to send it to me by e-mail? Could I experiment with it?

In which format? Image or MilX?

 

[Joe Shearer]

If Indian strategic planners were to take up Tarapore on his criticism, and work on those lines, the consequences would be transformative.

Extracting the personnel of Pakistan Army XI Corps and XII Corps, that is 5 Infantry Divisions (? 75,000 jawans), we are left with (535,000 - 75,000 =) 460,000 jawans. The Indian Army then only has to defend against 460,000 jawans, who would normally need a 3:1 superiority to attack.

If we take a humorous, light-hearted view of things, even without counting the higher superiority, ranging upwards of 4:1 or even 5:1, required in mountain terrain, any Indian troops more than 80,000 in number, say around 6 infantry divisions worth, should (theoretically) hold at bay any Pakistani attack. The Indian Army could always elect to be extraordinarily stupid, however, and step aside and allow free penetration and expansion of a Pakistani attack. Of course, assuming that the Americans, the Chinese and the Russians do not interfere. Also, that general officers do not start using their pearl-handled side-arms.

Just for context, today approximately 11, at most 12 Indian divisions are directed against the PLA, and the balance of 27 divisions are concentrated on the India-Pakistan boundaries.

The Tarapore-Ajai Shukla school of thought would release 21 divisions for

1. re-deployment
2. reduction in personnel head-count, leading to dramatic reduction in budget provisions for pensions and retirement benefits in the middle future
3. opportunities to completely set aside conventional formation building and equipping and work towards NBC capable IBGs without inhibitions.

In which format? Image or MilX?

Honestly, I'm not sure.

I have posed the question to another group of interested civilians and would like to furnish this visual evidence for their entertainment.

The question is - how to defend Indian territory without increasing head-count, number of divisions, number of corps, number of armies.

All this while readily accepting that XI Corps and XII Corps can easily stroll across and join the party, whenever their Corps commanders start feeling bored.

 

[Joe Shearer]

In my VERY humble opinion, there should be a fraternal understanding whereby a substantial - really big, in eight to ten figure dollar terms, should be conveyed to the Indian CDS every year, by friends of all men of goodwill on earth.

This should ensure that no silly thoughts prevail, and instead there is a push for a 45 division Army, a 300 ship Navy and a 50 squadron Air Force.

Nothing should come in the way of national defence.

We are already eating grass, so that grand gesture may falter a little. Perhaps we could swear an oath, like Lars Porsena of Clusium, on the Nine Gods, not to have salt with our grass, until these goals are achieved.

 

[surya kiran]

how to defend Indian territory without increasing head-count, number of divisions, number of corps, number of armies.

By threatening not Lahore, but Karachi. Mirpur Khais and Hyderabad.