Indian Army General praises Musharraf and Accepts Kargil loss

[araz]

This is a poor simplification of Kargil operation, and a very pedestrian analysis, driven by Indian propaganda. Kargil was a painful experience, but not as gloomy as most people make it. Wish I could talk about the silver lining for both countries.

Simple or padsztrian is not the point. Musharraf was a twat and all the above that I have mentioned. Kargil was nothing new but prepared during times of Zia and presented to him. He tore the arguments for action apart. This is a known fact highlighted by various books. The plan itself relied on aquick siezure of the peaks in kargil and holding on llng enough for international countries to interfere. Initially the plan worked due to the element of surprise and the valour of the men and they even managed to down a couple of IAF jets t9 the greatest embarrasment of IAF. However the revamped M2Ks stepped inand the Bofors started making an impact. There was no established supply line. The PAF was never consulted and the whole premise of action got Nawaz a bollocking in US which made him panic. It was at that stag3 that the story came out into the open and PAF was consulted and explajned its inability to help on grounds of fear of escalation. Lack of appropriate ACs as the 16 were getting roughshod due to lack of spares. The support fromChina and US did not ccome.PA was left with no option but to withdraw and most of the losses were during retreat. This is what I know. If you know any better then share. I am willkng to learn other points and perspectives so instead of padestrianising the debate share and learn from each other.

 

[Immanuel]

I dont see why you are going off the topic but ok.
Who said we never fought a war with terrorists? We still are.... A full fledge operation is up since last more then a year...
Ever since the Zarb e Azb, everything is getting better... So, none of what you said is of any value.

Same reason why your going off topic, losses of Indian soldiers during regular anti terror ops are in no way representative of losses during Kargil. As for your BS war on terror and this op is hogwash. Just Pak's attempt at saving face by bombing the tribal regions, while the real Taliban are basically being protected at nourished. whenever the time comes for more Bakhshish coming along from the US, Pak ramps up bombing on tribal regions your countries' resolve at fighting terror is pathetic to say the least. God knows how many innocent men/women/children need to die for your own army/ISI to stop supporting all forms of nut jobs.

 

[Usama78]

Same reason why your going off topic, losses of Indian soldiers during regular anti terror ops are in no way representative of losses during Kargil. As for your BS war on terror and this op is hogwash. Just Pak's attempt at saving face by bombing the tribal regions, while the real Taliban are basically being protected at nourished. whenever the time comes for more Bakhshish coming along from the US, Pak ramps up bombing on tribal regions your countries' resolve at fighting terror is pathetic to say the least. God knows how many innocent men/women/children need to die for your own army/ISI to stop supporting all forms of nut jobs.

Blah Blah Blah....
Says who? I just dont give a poop to people like you. If thats the level of arguement you can come up with. RIp to you.
Go find some Indian who has the same thoughts and tell that to them.

 

[tarrar]

Indians don't have the guts to accept their loss.

 

[Immanuel]

Regardless of the BS bravado, Pakistanis always end up raising the white flag and being forced to accept their bodies.

 

[Star Wars]

This is a poor simplification of Kargil operation, and a very pedestrian analysis, driven by Indian propaganda. Kargil was a painful experience, but not as gloomy as most people make it. Wish I could talk about the silver lining for both countries.

Well, i would like to hear your version of the events in detail...

 

[nair]

While i do not see this debate going anywhere because the nature of topic, i understand that no side will want to back off or even out in much effort to keep the discussion progress in a civilized manner, i still have one point to share.

This is how every Kargil related thread discussions....

At that time, the Indians had a false sense of superiority, the superpower delusion they face today was present at that time as well. One little thing that we achieved was woke them from that wet dream, we broke there false sense grandeur and invincibility with a brigade level fight.

It was a tight slap on the face of both Indian Army and the intelligence agencies...... The idea was brilliant and if executed would have got the desired results..... But....

The IAF with all its tall claims of much superior air planes and huge numbers was NOT able to achieve what they SHOULD have, complete air control wrecking havoc on PA.

Wrong way to interpret....... The instructions were very clear from GoI..... not to cross the LoC...... So the question of air superiority doesnt araise......More over it is well documented the delay in getting IAF involved and the confusion they had in the initial stages...... I thought PAF was not in good shape then due to spares issue for F 16.....

The EGO was hurt badly, the false sense of bravado was exposed and the tall claims of complete dominance and superiority came crashing down. For me, that is a win enough now.!

Normally a win/loss in a war is decided based on the objective of the war..... If hurting the EGO of IA/IAF or GoI was the Objective then you are right...... But i doubt that is the case here....

. We see some senior officials from Indian army and other walks of life, coming forward every now and then and admitting to all these failures, much to the dismay of general Indian public, cannot blame either one of them for that!

There were several short falls in kargil, and most of them are being documented and looked into ....... Actually we should thank Mushraff for doing kargil and showing our gaps.......

 

[venu309]

Excellent post man, looking forward to read more from u btw are u an Indian American? coz I rarely seen foreigners having this deep knowledge about sub continental affairs

He is an American of Pakistani origin

 

[Sipahi]

lol!!

you should cry on your army conduct .... aisa tou hmare generals ko kehna chahiye tha

 

[Arsalan]

This is how every Kargil related thread discussions....

Yeah, sadly you are right!

It was a tight slap on the face of both Indian Army and the intelligence agencies...... The idea was brilliant and if executed would have got the desired results..... But....

It was exercised, to some extent. Still whatever was done did achieved what i pointed to and what we see to agree on, it helped bring back the Indian army and intelligence back on earth.

Wrong way to interpret....... The instructions were very clear from GoI..... not to cross the LoC...... So the question of air superiority doesnt araise......More over it is well documented the delay in getting IAF involved and the confusion they had in the initial stages...... I thought PAF was not in good shape then due to spares issue for F 16.....

Bad Shape will be an understatement. It was on back of a decade long sanction!, F-7 with no BVR capability were the most active fighters back then, compare that to squadrons after squadron of BVR capable jet of IAF. That is the point, despite that overwhelming superiority IAF was not able to strike that decisive blow that they could/should have.

Normally a win/loss in a war is decided based on the objective of the war..... If hurting the EGO of IA/IAF or GoI was the Objective then you are right...... But i doubt that is the case here....

Surely that was not the case but liberating Kashmir was also not a goal. Miss adventures seldom have any defined goals. It was more of a case of " we wont be bullied" statement. THAT, was delivered successfully.

There were several short falls in kargil, and most of them are being documented and looked into ....... Actually we should thank Mushraff for doing kargil and showing our gaps.......

Yes, you do! Totally agreed.
Have those gaps been filled, only time will tell. The claims at that time were same as those of today, claims of no gaps and totally superiority.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Well, i would like to hear your version of the events in detail...

Our version will never see the light of day. Just rejoice the fact that the severe beating your comrades got in Kargil at the hand of our soldiers got them quite a makeover in weapons, and even cold weather gear, which they never thought of before. However, your decision makers still continue to leave the posts in winter in batalik, baltoro, and tiger hills. Very tempting, i must add.

 

[nair]

Yeah, sadly you are right!

I am used to it now...

It was exercised, to some extent. Still whatever was done did achieved what i pointed to and what we see to agree on, it helped bring back the Indian army and intelligence back on earth.

Well It took IA by surprise.... and it took some time for them to understand the magnitude..... I dono it would be fair to blame them, because this was the time when both nations were going towards peaceful relationship especially after Lahore bus trip by Indian PM and the mood around both nations was upbeat towards peace....... But then Army job is to keep vigilant and prepared to be back stabbed, which they were not....... I guess RAW had egg on its face, even though there was visible movement in pakistan, they could not judge it or identify the danger.... May be they also were sleeping on the hang over of the lahore yatra....

Bad Shape will be an understatement. It was on back of a decade long sanction!, F-7 with no BVR capability were the most active fighters back then, compare that to squadrons after squadron of BVR capable jet of IAF. That is the point, despite that overwhelming superiority IAF was not able to strike that decisive blow that they could/should have.

2 reasons here......
1) The instructions from GoI was very clear not to cross LOC, so they were not asked use their air superiority....
2) The situation which they were in...... There several odds against IAF.... The terrain, The altitude, Lack of coordination, Less intelligence....... Once they got hold of it, they were having their field day..... IAF bombing was the significant reason for the results of Kargil, probably Mushraff and company did not anticipate the IAF response and cost them dear...... It has been documented by Pakistani agencies too.....

I would say IAF done an excellent job, though they were in to trouble in the initial few days.....

Surely that was not the case but liberating Kashmir was also not a goal. Miss adventures seldom have any defined goals. It was more of a case of " we wont be bullied" statement. THAT, was delivered successfully.

I disagree here..... The ultimate aim was to liberate Kashmir...... First siachin....But you are looking thru a small prism If you thought the ultimate Aim was to convey "we wont be bullied" then the cost paid to convey that message is one of the worst, I would say second to 1971...... Actually this put India into a great advantage......For this message the loss which made diplomatically was huge...... The out come of a kargil for world was.....

1) Pakistan attacked India without any provocation - That too months after Indian prime minister initiated peace process by visiting Pakistan....
2) In spite of being attacked and back stabbed India shown restrain and worked only on throwing the intruders out,

I think GoI handled the situation pretty well.....Diplomatically India was the winner..... Entire nation was behind Goi and army.......where as in Pakistan .... you know.....

Yes, you do! Totally agreed.
Have those gaps been filled, only time will tell. The claims at that time were same as those of today, claims of no gaps and totally superiority.

Well i cant be certain if those gaps are filled, but i am pretty sure that things are much much better today when compared...Superiority ??? When was the last time an Army fought a battle like Kargil and won?

 

[My-Analogous]

Last week i saw a man was standing in front of a car and not letting the car go past him and asking the driver to drive over him if the driver had guts.

the people who where watching this ,none thought the driver is coward but thought the man blocking the car a retard.

There is a very thin line between bravery and cowardliness and you just saw one man but i saw many man claim to a intelligent so that their cowardliness will be hidden and their guts will never tested by someone. So keep going.

 

[me_itsme]

you should cry on your army conduct .... aisa tou hmare generals ko kehna chahiye tha

Well our army conduct was good as usual, that is why we won again as usual. I dont understand the other part, sorry.

 

[Arsalan]

I am used to it now...

It is being sad right?

Well It took IA by surprise.... and it took some time for them to understand the magnitude..... I dono it would be fair to blame them, because this was the time when both nations were going towards peaceful relationship especially after Lahore bus trip by Indian PM and the mood around both nations was upbeat towards peace....... But then Army job is to keep vigilant and prepared to be back stabbed, which they were not....... I guess RAW had egg on its face, even though there was visible movement in pakistan, they could not judge it or identify the danger.... May be they also were sleeping on the hang over of the lahore yatra....

2 reasons here......
1) The instructions from GoI was very clear not to cross LOC, so they were not asked use their air superiority....
2) The situation which they were in...... There several odds against IAF.... The terrain, The altitude, Lack of coordination, Less intelligence....... Once they got hold of it, they were having their field day..... IAF bombing was the significant reason for the results of Kargil, probably Mushraff and company did not anticipate the IAF response and cost them dear...... It has been documented by Pakistani agencies too.....

I would say IAF done an excellent job, though they were in to trouble in the initial few days.....

The point is not if they were capable or not, i am sure they were. The thing is, for whatever reason (i do tend to agree with the ones you mention) the superiority claims were not justified by the actions and when that is considered it was a set back for IAF. Not so much of a win for Pak but a loss for India nonetheless.

I disagree here..... The ultimate aim was to liberate Kashmir...... First siachin....But you are looking thru a small prism If you thought the ultimate Aim was to convey "we wont be bullied" then the cost paid to convey that message is one of the worst, I would say second to 1971...... Actually this put India into a great advantage......For this message the loss which made diplomatically was huge...... The out come of a kargil for world was.....

1) Pakistan attacked India without any provocation - That too months after Indian prime minister initiated peace process by visiting Pakistan....
2) In spite of being attacked and back stabbed India shown restrain and worked only on throwing the intruders out,

I think GoI handled the situation pretty well.....Diplomatically India was the winner..... Entire nation was behind Goi and army.......where as in Pakistan .... you know.....

I agree with all points about diplomatic win of GoI, they won where as on our side the whole issue was miss handled. However i can assure you again that Kargil had nothing to do with liberating all of Kashmir, any such claims including those from any Pakistani media or establishment are absurd. You do not liberate a whole state from a full fledged army by engaging them in small Kargil style war. It was a miss adventure mostly, the only sensible aim could have been to let the Indian forces know there actual battlefield status and level of readiness.

Well It took IA by surprise.... and it took some time for them to understand the magnitude..... I dono it would be fair to blame them, because this was the time when both nations were going towards peaceful relationship especially after Lahore bus trip by Indian PM and the mood around both nations was upbeat towards peace....... But then Army job is to keep vigilant and prepared to be back stabbed, which they were not....... I guess RAW had egg on its face, even though there was visible movement in pakistan, they could not judge it or identify the danger.... May be they also were sleeping on the hang over of the lahore yatra....

Well i cant be certain if those gaps are filled, but i am pretty sure that things are much much better today when compared...Superiority ??? When was the last time an Army fought a battle like Kargil and won?

Right. Similarly Kargil style operations are not meant to liberate a whole state. As for the lessons, i also do not know with certainty but the response of Indian military in the 2001 crisis showed that much was still left to be learned. WE cannot tell about the readiness status, and this position, while it must restrain Pakistanis from taking the enemy forces for granted should also restrain the Indians from thinking or claiming the utmost superiority. But then again, what if the both sides do not agree with it, no chest thumping or bashing will be any significant effect on the health of the other. Perhaps sitting back and enjoying it is the best thing one can do.