indian army chief says pakistan must be secular if they want to stay together with india

[padamchen]

You are wrong. The entire structure of a Hindu state - not a mixed state, but a classical Hindu state - is an indistinguishable merging of the religious principles that rule and the state. Religious and administrative principles cannot be separated out. To give you a small example, that is only for the purpose of illustration, a judge is addressed as Dharmavatar, avatar of Dharma. The choice of a ruler is strictly prescribed, his anointing and accession to the throne is laid down in clear principles, and so on down to the smallest detail of daily life.

There is no Church in Hindu thought, but there is religion, in copious amounts, and it is this that is mingled with the state.

I state this for your edification; for myself, I abhor the Church and religion, and object strongly to their several or collective interference with the state. I am a secularist of the French persuasion, not the Indian; ALL religions should be kept outside public life, rather than the Indian and British models of ALL religions being embraced in public life.



There is no misrepresentation of Hindutva. This is a ghastly import of purely western authoritarian thought of the fascist school, that subordinates religion to the service of the state, and subordinates the state to the service of a religion, to the exclusion of individual human rights and freedom.

Please be clear that my distaste is for the Hindutva concept. Hinduism is as good or as bad as any other religion, perhaps, due to its general tolerance and inclusion, better than most, ranking with Buddhism and the Sikh system of faith. But Hindutva is disgusting.

In passing, might I mention that you have achieved neither the moral nor the intellectual stature to certify what I may or may not do.

Your last sentence needed saying.

Apparently a "big shit" elsewhere. Mallu Sanghi central.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Joe Shearer]

Your last sentence needed saying.

Apparently a "big shit" elsewhere. Mallu Sanghi central.

Cheers, Doc

I do not want to diminish the dignity of the forum, but please educate me: what is the qualitative difference between a 'big' shit and a 'little' shit? Don't they think the same, and don't they sound the same?

An interested audience wants to know.

 

[RAMPAGE]

You are wrong. The entire structure of a Hindu state - not a mixed state, but a classical Hindu state - is an indistinguishable merging of the religious principles that rule and the state. Religious and administrative principles cannot be separated out. To give you a small example, that is only for the purpose of illustration, a judge is addressed as Dharmavatar, avatar of Dharma. The choice of a ruler is strictly prescribed, his anointing and accession to the throne is laid down in clear principles, and so on down to the smallest detail of daily life.

There is no Church in Hindu thought, but there is religion, in copious amounts, and it is this that is mingled with the state.

I state this for your edification; for myself, I abhor the Church and religion, and object strongly to their several or collective interference with the state. I am a secularist of the French persuasion, not the Indian; ALL religions should be kept outside public life, rather than the Indian and British models of ALL religions being embraced in public life.

Alright, but is there any significant sympathy for these ideas?

 

[Nilgiri]

Spoiler

Some sorrow, love, and passion to start your December with?

On topic, I do not think there is any historical precedent - or for that matter, anything in the Hindu doctrine on which to predicate the merger of Chuch and State. This unholy alliance, unfortunately, can only gain any significant legitimacy in the Islamic culture.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you for the choice of music good sir. Shall add to my list.

The very word Hindu is geographic originally....given by the Persians and Greeks from the river Indus that marked the boundary of the geography/culture as they perceived it.

The Romans similarly for example lumped all the Germanic belief systems (of their day) into one vague geographic entity.

There is no "church" (as grand institution or core dogma in that sense) to begin with in "Hinduism" (an argument can be made for the Vedic religion, but that is somewhat different). So really there is no merger to be made in the western/abrahamic sense (i.e Hinduism itself has very expansive meaning, there are religious contexts, philosophical contexts and cultural contexts...and which portmanteau is in operation depends greatly on who you are talking to and what the subject is).

There are guiding moral principles expected of rulers (and any general power wielders)...and that generally has reference towards the "Rama Rajya".... but in the kaliyug, it is largely been established that salvation comes at individual level by faith and good clean living...the great intermediaries/sages/preceptors epoch (and thus any significant religious based political treatises as seen in say the Mahabharat) is over.

EDIT: I see Joe has already answered on this too....you can compare and contrast...I think much we agree on overall tho.

 

[Skull and Bones]

what is bip bip smoking these day....

you will find even Pakistani hindus and sikhs dont want to be with india let alone any muslim

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-34645370

This is very sad, and very bad.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The IA Chief is right from their POV!!!! As long as the Pak folks long for Shehadet for the defense of the Muslim country it'll be impossible for them to undermine her (lower than Dalits, turning into Termites etc.)!!!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Alright, but is there any significant sympathy for these ideas?

There is, but in a very uneducated way. Have you seen the intellectual quality of the Sanghi government? Do you expect anything from them but the crudest sadism and lynch-mob mentality? When their intellectual beacon is S. Gurumurthy, what do you expect from them?

Essentially, that is what these prize clowns are trying to do, integrate the religion and the state. It is frankly beyond their mental boundaries to plan for it; all they can do, and are in fact doing, is to corrupt one institution after another. The latest target is the central bank, the Reserve Bank of India.

 

[randomradio]

You are wrong. The entire structure of a Hindu state - not a mixed state, but a classical Hindu state - is an indistinguishable merging of the religious principles that rule and the state. Religious and administrative principles cannot be separated out. To give you a small example, that is only for the purpose of illustration, a judge is addressed as Dharmavatar, avatar of Dharma. The choice of a ruler is strictly prescribed, his anointing and accession to the throne is laid down in clear principles, and so on down to the smallest detail of daily life.

There is no Church in Hindu thought, but there is religion, in copious amounts, and it is this that is mingled with the state.

I state this for your edification; for myself, I abhor the Church and religion, and object strongly to their several or collective interference with the state. I am a secularist of the French persuasion, not the Indian; ALL religions should be kept outside public life, rather than the Indian and British models of ALL religions being embraced in public life.

Hinduism is quite strict about separation of church and state. I think you need to read up on the caste system and how caste defined the profession of the ruling class and the priestly class. School children know this.

There is no misrepresentation of Hindutva. This is a ghastly import of purely western authoritarian thought of the fascist school, that subordinates religion to the service of the state, and subordinates the state to the service of a religion, to the exclusion of individual human rights and freedom.

Please be clear that my distaste is for the Hindutva concept. Hinduism is as good or as bad as any other religion, perhaps, due to its general tolerance and inclusion, better than most, ranking with Buddhism and the Sikh system of faith. But Hindutva is disgusting.

Your first statement and everything that follows reminds me of a very interesting word called 'oxymoron'.

Sorry, but you simply have the desire to associate Hindutva with fascism, but it's anything but.

In passing, might I mention that you have achieved neither the moral nor the intellectual stature to certify what I may or may not do.

I'm afraid you do not have either to comment on Hindutva either, considering your poor understanding of both Hinduism and Hindutva. The very statement where you called Hinduism a religion proves it.

 

[RAMPAGE]

@Joe Shearer @Nilgiri

Perhaps it is the absence of Church in Hinduism which keeps the idea of a doctrine-informed constitution from gaining any legitimacy?

 

[Mugwop]

indians don't know what "Secular" "democracy" and "surgical strike" really means

 

[RAMPAGE]

There is, but in a very uneducated way. Have you seen the intellectual quality of the Sanghi government? Do you expect anything from them but the crudest sadism and lynch-mob mentality? When their intellectual beacon is S. Gurumurthy, what do you expect from them?

Essentially, that is what these prize clowns are trying to do, integrate the religion and the state. It is frankly beyond their mental boundaries to plan for it; all they can do, and are in fact doing, is to corrupt one institution after another. The latest target is the central bank, the Reserve Bank of India.

Do you think that economic stability and higher living standards will significantly reduce India's susceptibility to fascism? I think economic instability is usually what fascist populists lean on.

 

[randomradio]

@Joe Shearer @Nilgiri

Perhaps it is the absence of Church in Hinduism which keeps the idea of a doctrine-informed constitution from gaining any legitimacy?

It is the absence of Church in Hinduism that allows me to be an atheist as well as Hindu at the same time. So it's a good thing.

 

[Darwin]

bupin or no bupin
pakistan should be secular state

Or you can be a secular state like you are a democratic one ......on pape

There is, but in a very uneducated way. Have you seen the intellectual quality of the Sanghi government? Do you expect anything from them but the crudest sadism and lynch-mob mentality? When their intellectual beacon is S. Gurumurthy, what do you expect from them?

Essentially, that is what these prize clowns are trying to do, integrate the religion and the state. It is frankly beyond their mental boundaries to plan for it; all they can do, and are in fact doing, is to corrupt one institution after another. The latest target is the central bank, the Reserve Bank of India.

India has taken its hindu phobia a bit too far.
You will find metros in singapore and malaysia decorated for diwali but not delhi metro. I am personally against such decorations but we are trying too hard to be secular.
RBI was a storm in a teacup. RBI resisted the governments attempt at interference and everything died down.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Star and Crescent is a Turkic symbol, not an Islamic one.

If safe guarding the Muslim heartlands with blood, sweat and treasure for six centuries, with 10s of millions of Shehits and Gazis under the banner of AyYildiz (Hilal ve Sitara) against the Islam's arch enemies, isn't Islamic enough, I don't know what is than Islamic???? Even when the Saltanat was going down the one-third of the male population embraced Shehadet!!!!! And, front-wise, the highest number of causalities (~700K) occurred for the defense of Palestine and El Kuds!!!!! Match this and be my guest to take the "Islamic" out of the AyYildiz (Hilal ve Sitara)....

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hinduism is quite strict about separation of church and state. I think you need to read up on the caste system and how caste defined the profession of the ruling class and the priestly class. School children know this.

That is precisely one of the factors that integrates religion and state.

Your first statement and everything that follows reminds me of a very interesting word called 'oxymoron'.

Sorry, but you simply have the desire to associate Hindutva with fascism, but it's anything but.

You will, in that case, take no offence if I partially agree, and inform you that your rejoinders remind me of the latter portion of the word that you have used.

If you had a nodding acquaintance with the political philosophy of Fascism, you might not have dismissed it so readily.

I'm afraid you do not have either to comment on Hindutva either, considering your poor understanding of both Hinduism and Hindutva. The very statement where you called Hinduism a religion proves it.

I presume that your worship of divinity is classified under some rubric other than religion. There is a limit to being fatuous, but not, apparently, for hedge-priests.

@Joe Shearer @Nilgiri

Perhaps it is the absence of Church in Hinduism which keeps the idea of a doctrine-informed constitution from gaining any legitimacy?

A very shrewd observation.

You may have noticed that @Nilgiri and I differ, but not substantially. Perhaps the most rounded picture lies in combining, without violence, what we have each stated.

I was struck by your remark. There is a great deal of meat in it. If there are to be any further exchanges, and you have opened up an interesting vein, I should like to know, as it will make me study Nilgiri's post carefully.