Indian air force 'lacks planes'

[Contrarian]

There is also a wide generation gap between the LCA and Raptor, the former is 4th and later is 5th. It is not like JF-17 and Su-30MKI, which are both 4th generation. Add the top-end technology on JF-17, and the gap between it and the Flanker closes.

So there is no difference in airframe or experience or maturity of the plane?
China makes its first plane, and bang, its better than the best created by Russia from whom China originally took help to understand stuff that it couldnt grasp.

Okay, when was the last time PLAAF placed an order for the Su-30MKKs? 2002? 2003? Have they ordered any since the government started disclosing the J-10? Have the Chinese even begun talking about more Su-30MKKs? Give me a link on whether China bought additional Su-30MKKs after 2003-2004.

You should know that you dont constantly order planes after every 2 years, China ordered say in 2003-4 then it would take atleast 5-10 years depending on the volume and the type of the plane ordered, to actually get to china, before it mulls on the decision to buy another batch.

Be specific, if you're going to ask for sources - then tell me exactly what you want.

You said that it would have TVC, eetc, etc. Now i ask you to give me the speifics of the plane, which are proved and not heresay, 'omg , the plane wil have this and that'.

The PLAAF publically said 2 J-10s intercepted 4 Su-27/30s successfully. Link:

Prior to this, PLAAF officials have constantly said that the J-10 beat the Flanker in DACT trials and stuff. So, contrary to what you claim - the Chinese believe that the Su-27 is not worthy competitor to the J-10.

J-10 was designed as an air superiority fighter that would very likely come into contact with Flankers and Fulcrums. Link

Now, again,its says that it intercepted a 3rd gen fighter, there is a writing on PDF that says that there could be other planes also that are 3rd gen., not necessarily the Su-27, that china possess. In any case, even if it IS su-27, there is a HUGE difference b/w Su-27 and Su-30 MKI/MKK. There is aactual strucutral difference in the airframe as well. Su-27 is just a basline fighter. MKI/MKK have diff armaments, engines, etc. And btw, Su-27 is 4th gen. int he first plase, since the article says that J-10 beat a 3rd gen a/c, we can rule out the Su-27.

So not only did the J-10 beat the Su-27 today, it was primarily designed to take on the Flanker & Fulcrum during the design stages.

No 1 cares what it was designed to do, but what it actually does, and so far all its done is beat a 3rd gen a/c. And btw i dont think any1 believes china when it says anything about its military achievements. I think you know what im talking about.

Over Pakistan, the AEW&C scenario does give the PAF advantages over Su-30MKI. The considerably longer radar range of the Erieye & Hawkeye would be provided to datalinked fighters, this negates Su-30MKI's radar advantages quite a bit. Su-30MKI might have a radar lock, but what about its BVR-AAM? What's its range compared to the likes of AIM-120C5? If an F-16 with a detection range of 105km had a BVR missile that could be fired from 110km, compared to an Su-30MKI with a longer detection range but a shorter range missile - where exactly is MKI better? It is a bigger plane too!

India too would have AWACS, and might i add, controversial though this statement is that a superior AWACS. In any case, AWACS would give the plane situational awareness but not a radar lock, the plane has to use its own radar for that, and thats where the MKi scores. The R-77's range is roughly 100km, for C-5 is about 110 km. So what is teh huge difference? Where exactly does the AWACS negate the advantage of the MKI. I repeat for the zillion+1 times now, MKi is going to get an EVEN better radar now!! Not to mention the AESA thats going to come with the MRCA.

Can you please provide a link/source to that?

Sure, Name of the ECM pod developed is 'Mayawi'. Made by India and Israel There have been NUMEROUS reports over this, but in a hurry as i am right now, i could find only this: http://www.forceindia.net/november/industry1.asp

LMAO, again with the wild rant. At least provide one valid link to support your claims. The words "thought to beat all except Block 60" from a Russian advertisement do not make the upgraded IAF MiG-29 better than the F-16C/D Block 52+ and F-16MLU-3.

Well...the MiG29's are going for an MLU, is that sufficient, That makes them much more lethal than before.

Speak for yourself, those Mirages are older than your MiG-21s and the former still has lower attrition rates. Again, if the Grifo M can detect a fighter at say 50-60km and have a BVR-AAM of up to 60km range, then that basically means the guy on the other end is vulnerable to a BVR attack.

Right, even if they are OLDER than the MiG 21's (a claim that i doubt, but i will have to verify), though i hope that ur not talking about the Mirage III's and others that PAF has, cuz IAF has Mirage 2000!!!. Now THESE IAF Mirages are going for an MLU and are going to be upgraded to Mirage 2000-5 standards with many components fitted that were designed for Rafale. They are equivalent to F-16 blk 52's. Google about Mirage 2005's and u will get all the info you need. Its a fab plane!!

[/QUOTE]You're blinded by pure uber-bharat rhetoric.[/QUOTE]
Well, i am trying to prove to u logically that all the things that are said about PAF's planes are rhetoric. About J-10, about JF-17, about Mirages. If today PAF had the same planes that IAF has now and vice verce, you peeps would be ranting off about the seperiority of your planes, since you dont have that, all that Pakistan can afford to get in proper quantities, you make it sound as though its the best in its league.

 

[Quwa]

So there is no difference in airframe or experience or maturity of the plane?
China makes its first plane, and bang, its better than the best created by Russia from whom China originally took help to understand stuff that it couldnt grasp.

I said that JF-17 and Su-30MKI are of the same generation, whereas LCA and F/A-22 are not. There is a clear difference in what I said and what you're trying to pull out of me. As for your "China makes its first plane, and bang"; I have no time for your rhetoric. I provided sources, I've provided credibility to my sources; while you're just speaking out of your *** and telling the world you're desperate.

You should know that you dont constantly order planes after every 2 years, China ordered say in 2003-4 then it would take atleast 5-10 years depending on the volume and the type of the plane ordered, to actually get to china, before it mulls on the decision to buy another batch.

Oh my, so we're changing our arguments now! From "why is China still ordering Su-30MKKs", we've gone to "Why is China still taking delivery of a previous order?". So what's your point, how does this relate to J-10?

You said that it would have TVC, eetc, etc. Now i ask you to give me the speifics of the plane, which are proved and not heresay, 'omg , the plane wil have this and that'.

Sure thing, but are you asking about J-10 or JF-17? IF J-10, then here;

(take the 'E' out)
http://www.sinodEefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10powerplant.asp

Second source.
http://img457.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot2vi1.jpg

As for AESA, I'll have to dig up older news about the KLJ series, so I'll get that ASAP.

Now, again,its says that it intercepted a 3rd gen fighter, there is a writing on PDF that says that there could be other planes also that are 3rd gen., not necessarily the Su-27, that china possess. In any case, even if it IS su-27, there is a HUGE difference b/w Su-27 and Su-30 MKI/MKK. There is aactual strucutral difference in the airframe as well. Su-27 is just a basline fighter. MKI/MKK have diff armaments, engines, etc. And btw, Su-27 is 4th gen. int he first plase, since the article says that J-10 beat a 3rd gen a/c, we can rule out the Su-27.

Chinese 3rd generation is equivalent to Western 4th generation; for China, F-16s, F-15s, F/A-18s, etc, are also 3rd generation. IF you do not believe me, then do you're own research - this is knowledge that can be obtained easily. And buddy, the only 3rd/4th gen. fighters that are certified for DACT in PLAAF are J-10 and Su-27/30. BTW, what structural changes does the basic Su-30 have over Su-27? Two seats over one? I realize MKI has cannards and TVC, but let me ask - where does the J-10 fall? It has cannards and will eventually have TVC.

No 1 cares what it was designed to do, but what it actually does, and so far all its done is beat a 3rd gen a/c. And btw i dont think any1 believes china when it says anything about its military achievements. I think you know what im talking about.

Read above. I expected someone of your immense ego would be able to match it up with learnt information and research - but I was wrong.

India too would have AWACS, and might i add, controversial though this statement is that a superior AWACS. In any case, AWACS would give the plane situational awareness but not a radar lock, the plane has to use its own radar for that, and thats where the MKi scores. The R-77's range is roughly 100km, for C-5 is about 110 km. So what is teh huge difference? Where exactly does the AWACS negate the advantage of the MKI. I repeat for the zillion+1 times now, MKi is going to get an EVEN better radar now!! Not to mention the AESA thats going to come with the MRCA.

Again, if an F-16's radar detects an Su-30MKI at 105km and fires the AIM-120C5; where is the MKI's advantage if it's BVRAAM has a range of 100km? You might see the F-16 earlier, but how does that negate the F-16 threat if it has a BVR-AAM of similar range and radar capable of using it fully?

Sure, Name of the ECM pod developed is 'Mayawi'. Made by India and Israel There have been NUMEROUS reports over this, but in a hurry as i am right now, i could find only this: http://www.forceindia.net/november/industry1.asp

Will check it out.

Well...the MiG29's are going for an MLU, is that sufficient, That makes them much more lethal than before.

I'd agree with that, but I will not agree with the notion that it can destroy the F-16 fleet, blah blah blah.

Right, even if they are OLDER than the MiG 21's (a claim that i doubt, but i will have to verify), though i hope that ur not talking about the Mirage III's and others that PAF has, cuz IAF has Mirage 2000!!!. Now THESE IAF Mirages are going for an MLU and are going to be upgraded to Mirage 2000-5 standards with many components fitted that were designed for Rafale. They are equivalent to F-16 blk 52's. Google about Mirage 2005's and u will get all the info you need. Its a fab plane!!

Check it out yourself. Bulk of the IAF's MiG-21s were delivered in the mid to late-60s and 1970s. Majority of PAF Mirage fleet dates back to the early 1960s.

So now you're telling me your upgraded Mirage 2000-5s are equal to Block 52+ & MLU3? What happened to being superior and out matching? BTW, I've read about Mirage 2000-5s for a while - in fact I also know that PAF tested the Mirage 2000-5Mk2 since 2004. I also know that Mirage 2000-5Mk2 lost the PAF competition against F-16, and as a potential Plus One fighter against J-10.

Well, i am trying to prove to u logically that all the things that are said about PAF's planes are rhetoric. About J-10, about JF-17, about Mirages. If today PAF had the same planes that IAF has now and vice verce, you peeps would be ranting off about the seperiority of your planes, since you dont have that, all that Pakistan can afford to get in proper quantities, you make it sound as though its the best in its league.

Re-read your posts, I've seen anything but logical arguments from you. BTW, how can you be so sure that we would be ranting like you people if we had a similar fleet to yours? Even in early 2006 we believed that Su-30MKI can outdo the F-16, but now - with better research and more logic, we were wrong. And it seems your own Air Chiefs have recognized it too.

I might make it sound like that, but my intentions are you break the rhetoric you dorks spread over the web.

 

[Chukkar]

All said and done, the IAF seems to have spun the F-16 threat well.

Its:

-Getting all its MiG-29s upgraded to the 29 MRCA standard

-Getting its Mirage 2000-H's upgraded to the 2000-5 Mk2 standard, with a few more possibly purchased from Qatar and France

-Getting 40 extra MKIs, in addition to the 190 on order

-Had its Medium power radar deal cleared from Elta, with some 19 radars

And the MRCA is yet to be cleared.

 

[Contrarian]

Yeah, the ACM has done exactly what some people say the USAF tried to do with the Cope Excercises to their congress.

Kudos to the ACM, he knows how to work around the Indian beaureaucracy! The 'leaked' letter was a fab idea!

BTW, the ACM has also said now, not to be impatient for the MRCA tender. He said that it was necessary to be patient as the IAF will get the best possible product. So im hoping that this means Rafale/Typhoon, though its prolly wishful thinking atleast for the Typhoon.

On the one hand they say that the F-16's will erode some of their advantages , and the next day they say that the MKI is succesfully beating the Singaporean F-16's, Tornadoes and whatnot's. Perfect game!

BTW, VNOMAD, see, told you, 40 additional MKIs
Now, our MAIN strike aircrafts are:
A total of 230 MKI's
126 MRCA's
50 Mirage 2005 MkII's + Some additional bought + MICA missiles
God knows how many completely refurbished RSK MiG 29's.
Upgraded MiG 27's

 

[vnomad]

I realize MKI has cannards and TVC, but let me ask - where does the J-10 fall? It has cannards and will eventually have TVC.

It might have cannards and TVC but it will still not be able to match the aerodynamic performance of the MKI. And it will always have an inferior radar - thanks to limited radar aperture.

Again, if an F-16's radar detects an Su-30MKI at 105km and fires the AIM-120C5; where is the MKI's advantage if it's BVRAAM has a range of 100km? You might see the F-16 earlier, but how does that negate the F-16 threat if it has a BVR-AAM of similar range and radar capable of using it fully?

The MKI will always get the radar lock first and engage it first. The F-16 cannot get a lock at 105kms. The MKI has a larger payload and range which means that the pilot can afford to launch at the engagement envelope.

I might make it sound like that, but my intentions are you break the rhetoric you dorks spread over the web.

Dorks huh? Thats not very polite.

 

[Contrarian]

why did u say earlier that getting 40 additional Su-30MKI"s was an overkill vnomad??

 

[vnomad]

why did u say earlier that getting 40 additional Su-30MKI"s was an overkill vnomad??

Receiving any deliveries of MKIs after 2015 doesn't make sense. India should be going exclusively for fifth generation aircraft after that. The T-50 and F-35will be in full-production around that time. The MKI has an RCS several times that of the Rafale and Eurofighter. We don't want to be stuck with the MKIs twenty five years from now like we're stuck with the MiG-21s today.

 

[Contrarian]

Receiving any deliveries of MKIs after 2015 doesn't make sense. India should be going exclusively for fifth generation aircraft after that. The T-50 and F-35will be in full-production around that time. The MKI has an RCS several times that of the Rafale and Eurofighter. We don't want to be stuck with the MKIs twenty five years from now like we're stuck with the MiG-21s today.

True, but the Su-30's have an open ended architecture, thats why they can be upgraded easily, in 20 years, they'd have had MLU properly.And the only plane that we'd have superior to teh Su-30 would be the MRCA and HOPEFULLY the T-50. Need i remind you that the govt has not shown interest in Su T-50.

So what is confirmed in the next 15 years is in order of being a superior plane.
MRCA
Su-30
Mirage 2005 MK2
MiG 29SMT

We hope that the govt will have the foresight and issue a RFP for the 5th gen right NOW, so that they may get inducted hopfully by 2020 LOL.
But that is not the case.

 

[vnomad]

True, but the Su-30's have an open ended architecture, thats why they can be upgraded easily, in 20 years, they'd have had MLU properly.

You can upgrade the radar, engine, avionics, ECM etc but structural limitations cannot be overcome. The RCS cannot be really reduced until the structure changes.

 

[vnomad]

BTW, VNOMAD, see, told you, 40 additional MKIs
Now, our MAIN strike aircrafts are:
A total of 230 MKI's

I wouldn't be so sure mate. The original order was for 140MkI. Perhaps the total number comes to 190 after adding the 40 additional MKIs.

 

[Contrarian]

yeah, like i said, it was debated in whatever forums, and some counting was done and sources compiled, in the end they decided that it was additional to the 190 already ordered.

 

[Contrarian]

Its confirmed
In the latest issue of FORCE, it says that the IAF is now going to get 230 Su-30MKI's and the time frame is arond 2012-13.

 

[vampier]

pakistan buy in 2010-2015 60 to 70 jxx as compare to f-22

 

[Janbaz]

pakistan buy in 2010-2015 60 to 70 jxx as compare to f-22

JXX is still in development and is particularly hard to develop a stealth fighter. US has experience, China does not and unless there is a groundbreaking effort i hate to say that the project will finish before 2020.

 

[salman_ebox]

Quote:
I think PAF as well has'nt got the good cooridination or a reaction time except couple of squadrons on major bases. I would indeed like to compare it with IAF though. FUN