Indian air force 'lacks planes'

[alamgir]

Malay,

i think you never read about j10 russain and israeli radar makers both offer their best radar for j10 but china still going for its domestic one why becouse much better then russian and isrealies. chinies electronic industry is much better then russia at most equal to isreal and eu last month i read an article in jane,s that russia realise that china no more big buyer of thier milatry hardware and know they offering china jiont ventures.china make great adanances in electronices in jet,s engine .eveen westeren defence experts saying that in 2 decades china will cross usa

 

[vnomad]

i think you never read about j10 russain and israeli radar makers both offer their best radar for j10 but china still going
for its domestic one why becouse much better then russian and isrealies.

The reason is that it gives a boost to the local industry besides being cheaper. Do your research before commenting Alamgir. Chinese radars are NOT better than russian ones. The best the Israelis have to offer is an 1500 T/R AESA. By your logic the Chinese have a radar that rivals it. Dream on.

chinies electronic industry is much better then russia at most equal to isreal and eu last month i read an article in jane,s that russia realise that china no more big buyer of thier milatry hardware and know they offering china jiont ventures.

You read an article huh?

china make great adanances in electronices in jet,s engine .eveen westeren defence experts saying that in 2 decades china will cross usa

Great advances with respect to what they started out with not compared to what the west has. The Chinese economy may surpass the US one in about three decades but owing to a lower population the US will still have a higher spending in strategic sectors and it will retain its pre-eminence in the world, though it wouldn't be a hyper-power anymore. The US military for one will remain unrivalled.

 

[Quwa]

Well...First off, the weaponry of the Flanker is far superior to whatever the Chinese get. Cuz the chinese make copies and you make it sound that the copies are better than the original. In any case, even China does not think that J-10 will replace its frontline fighter the Su-30MKK. They are still buying more and more flankers, it is their top and best plane and will remain so. J-10 is just an effort to reproduce it, prolly their next planes can match the Russian's in the middle, but its far off.

Okay, so because China reverse-engineers certain technology - that makes them inferior? Just because they manage to copy something and improve it themselves, that makes their technology inferior? Typical from an Indian.

BTW, you must be as blind as a *** if you think J-10 is a water-downed Flanker. The J-10 project is not much younger than the Flanker program (when initated by the Russians), and I do not think any sane person would say J-10 is an effort to reproduce a Flanker. That would be J-11B.

Do you know exactly why and how China uses the Su-30MKK? It is not just an air-superiority fighter, but a multi-role fighter. J-10 is a lighter fighter designed more for air-superiority and less for strike. The PLAAF has ended licensed production of Su-27s, the PLAAF has not voiced any renewed interest in the Su-35 - and that is because of J-10.

So why the hell do you think that the J-10 will "beat" the Su-30MKI, which is far superior to the MKK. Stop thinking the J-10 as the cure for all PAF's ills. Its going to be nothing, its a development, it will take the Chinese Aviation industry a long time to mature enough to match the Russian aviation industry and the Western. It will at best be a watered down version of the Chiense Flanker.

You're saying the J-10 cannot beat the SU-30MKI because China's aviation industry is not as good as Russia's? The same Russia that could not even provide the proper maintenance systems to India? Perhaps China is not as experienced as Russia, but it is certainly extremely close to Russia in terms of aviation development.

J-10 has less RCS than Su-30MKI
J-10 is smaller & lighter than Su-30MKI
Like Su-30MKI, J-10 also has cannards and WS-10-equipped will have TVC.
In an AEW&C scenario, the Su-30MKI's radar holds no considerable advantage


An AESA radar for J-10 is under development. PAF is also looking for an WVR-AAM in the Python 5 league for both JF-17 & J-10. How is Su-30MKI superior to J-10? One less hardpoint and a lot heavier? Or is because it is a divine Godly Indian imported thing?

Stop believing that your F-16 blk 52 is a world beater, when even those who own blk 52's and have even better planes, say that MKI is far better than them. If today India had blk 52's and u had MKI's. You would brag how the MKI's would blast the blk 52's in the sky, as blk 52's were old and this and that. So stop being so nationalistic.

Yea, saying F-16 can beat Su-30MKI is nationalistic. Read your own posts. The Block 52+ has JHMCS, it has a radar detection range of 105km, its weapon systems consist of AIM-120C5 (best in South Asia) and potentially IRIS-T. F-16 is lighter and has less RCS than the Flanker, and in an AEW&C scenario, Flanker's radar advantage is not significant in the whole scheme of things. Stop being so nationalistic.

In any case, it is already decided that when the MKI goes for overhauls, it will get an EVEN superior radar!

Yea, it feels good to tell us that the zillionth time since 2004, hope you can go to sleep now.

In any case, get your readings done Himeed, the MiG 35 when MKI'zed will be BEAST, it will have Python 5, Elta 2052 AESA, much much much more!! Refer to the MiG 35 article in this forum.

JF-17 is not capable of getting an AESA radar from Europe? JF-17 cannot be equipped with ECM/EW that are similar in standard to the Block 52 F-16s? JF-17 would not have a helmet mounted display/sight cueing system? JF-17 would be equipped with a WVRAAM like A-Darter or IRIS-T - which are in league of Python 5?

Quit the BS, and take the Pakistani scenario seriously. Because frankly it is incredibly shameful to see the Indians boast total superiority when your own Generals and politicians are whinning about Pakistan.

Secondly the order is going to split, its the MiG 35 with the F/A-18E/F OR the Rafale. Now if you start saying that the F-16's are better than both then may god help you.

Let us at least see you CHOOSE a fighter before talking about orders.

Next off, frget J-XX, its just on paper, hehe, do u think by the time PAKISTAN gets J-XX, India would be lolling around, we'd be on the T-50 long before with another plane in the pipeline.

You sound so retarded at this point, it isn't even funny.

The MiG 29's are going for an MLU, they'd have french stuff integrated in them, a complete changeover, they'd be MORE than a match for the F-16 blk 52's. Same for the Mirages, they are going for an MLU, they are going to be upgraded to more than the Mirage 2000-5 standard with components designed for the Rafale.

Okay, let us break this down.

India signed the MiG-29 upgrade deal with Russia, I don't recall France being mentioned. Provide a link please. Nonetheless, India manages to give the MiG-29 an HMS, better avionics and ECM/EW systems (from France) - and it thinks they'll be more than a match for Block 52+ & MLU-3? WTF lol? Block 52+ & MLU-3 are equipped with a JHMCS system, they have better BVR-AAMs, similar WVR-AAMs, similar datalink system and has scored more kills against MiG-29 than vice-versa...and it can blow the Block 52+ away? Just listen to your retarded rhetoric!!

The same goes for your Mirage 2000 upgrade.

 

[Keysersoze]

"In the late 1990s, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence estimated that the J-10 could be as manoeuvrable as the U.S. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. With its advanced “fly-by-wire” system, the J-10 may have a better aerodynamic performance compared to the Russian Su-27, which still uses the conventional control method. The Hong Kong-based newspaper Sing Tao Jih Pao reported on 29 May 2004 that during an aerial war game conducted by the PLAAF, the J-10 fighter has beaten the Su-27 fighter in all three rounds of “dogfight” in the mid-air."

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10.asp

Not definitive by any means but interesting none the less.

 

[Bull]

Your posts are just as senceless and rantish as you describe best of the best's. Provide a proper link to your claims about Su-30MKI and MiG-29OVT truly being superior to the F-16 Block 52+. And that cannot include Indian or Russian links because they are widely recognized for their onesided rhetoric against anything related to Pakistan.?.

"The upgraded MiG-29s will remain in service for 10-15 years after being fitted with upgraded weapons and a new avionics suite, including the Phazatron Zhuk-M radar. Phazotron's Zhuk-M radar is a derivative of the baseline Zhuk radar, but its acquisition range has increased 1.5 times and features a wide scan and tracking area of +/- 85 deg. in azimuth and +/- 60 deg. in elevation, plus terrain following mode and ground target acquisition including high resolution modes. The MiG-29s will also be upgraded with extra fuel tanks, plus mid-air refueling to increase their endurance and upgraded electronic warfare systems to improve survivability. India's MiG-29s are already believed to be capable of firing the R-77/AA-12 medium range air-air missile.

This will not quite bring the older MiG-29s up to the status of the MiG-29M2 multi-role aircraft, let alone the thrust-vectoring MiG-29OVT/MiG-35 model that Russia is reportedly offering for India's light-medium fighter competition. Nevertheless, India will be left with an aircraft that is comparable to the F-16C as a strike fighter, and with air-to-air performance that is arguably superior to all but the F-16 Block 60 model. "

In fact, how many kills have been attributed to MiG-29 as compared to F-16 worldwide? Hell, how many times has the MiG-29 won against the F-16 in a conflict?.

You are comparing well maintianed F-16s flown by well trained pilots against rusty MIg 29s.

Id the scenario the same in PAF Vs IAF. You dont have a single BVR capable fighter in your stock.How do you expect to shoot when you cant see???

[The F-16 Block 52+ and even MLU-3 has a better weapon inventory than the Su-30MKI. Physically the F-16 is smaller and has considerably lower RCS than the MKI; the MKI is a flying elephant. What is the MKI's radar range over Pakistani airspace with F-16s, JF-17s and J-10s datalinked to an AEW&C system? On F-16.net, USAF personnel who participated in the excersizes with IAF have said the F-16 faired very well against the Su-30. .

yes yes...:banana2: :flag:

PLAAF officials have said that the J-10 is more maneuverable than the Flanker. .

If you can discredit the indian and Russian media bcoz they are one sided,how can you claim something based on a PLAAF source?

[It should be of no surprise considering the J-10 has lower RCS, and the WS-10 version will also have TVC. .

Will have,might have??? We shall speak when its up and flying.

[JF-17 vs. the Su-30MKI? The BVR and WVR inventories are about the same, both will have HMS/HMD; and in an AEW&C scenario over Pakistan, not much of a radar difference. Hell if the improved RD-93 is used, the JF-17 will have thrust-vectoring and its maximum speed will be very close to Mach 2. So what are MKI's advantages? It's huge size? Don't kid me..

JF-17 rocks and thats why its been forced down the throat of PLAAF.

[About Block 70 and all the other Godly divine things India was offered, BS. Look at it for what it is worth. Who will have to pay the billions of dollars for the Block 70's development? Who will have to revamp their ENTIRE air force to properly induct and operate American aircraft? You DO realize that the costs just pile up for India when it comes to American fighter aircraft, right?.

block 70 is already developed,we just have to pay the royalty amount to UAE AF.

[blain2 put it very well a while back..."money is a finite thing". Learn it.

 

[Quwa]

"The upgraded MiG-29s will remain in service for 10-15 years after being fitted with upgraded weapons and a new avionics suite, including the Phazatron Zhuk-M radar. Phazotron's Zhuk-M radar is a derivative of the baseline Zhuk radar, but its acquisition range has increased 1.5 times and features a wide scan and tracking area of +/- 85 deg. in azimuth and +/- 60 deg. in elevation, plus terrain following mode and ground target acquisition including high resolution modes. The MiG-29s will also be upgraded with extra fuel tanks, plus mid-air refueling to increase their endurance and upgraded electronic warfare systems to improve survivability. India's MiG-29s are already believed to be capable of firing the R-77/AA-12 medium range air-air missile.

This will not quite bring the older MiG-29s up to the status of the MiG-29M2 multi-role aircraft, let alone the thrust-vectoring MiG-29OVT/MiG-35 model that Russia is reportedly offering for India's light-medium fighter competition. Nevertheless, India will be left with an aircraft that is comparable to the F-16C as a strike fighter, and with air-to-air performance that is arguably superior to all but the F-16 Block 60 model. "

Provide the link or source as well.

You are comparing well maintianed F-16s flown by well trained pilots against rusty MIg 29s.

Knowing the PAF-IAF scenario, that's not far off.
Id the scenario the same in PAF Vs IAF. You dont have a single BVR capable fighter in your stock.How do you expect to shoot when you cant see???[/QUOTE]
Then obviously you do not know that the Grifo M equips the Mirage ROSE I. Flight International reported that R-Darter was used during High Mark 2005; and the many news briefs we hear about PAF testing a beyond visual weapon.

If you can discredit the indian and Russian media bcoz they are one sided,how can you claim something based on a PLAAF source?

Well, how often do Indian sources fully quote their military officials? Next to the usual "we are a major superpower and Pakistan is nothing" rant, is there anything of substance? Unless the IAF has press releases that are completely undoctored by the media, then I'd settle for it.

The PLAAF says things straight, and for the most part, people discount the general Chinese media as much as the Indian media.

JF-17 rocks and thats why its been forced down the throat of PLAAF.

Different requirements? Perhaps PLAAF does not need a fighter ideal for smaller countries with less to defend?

block 70 is already developed,we just have to pay the royalty amount to UAE AF.

I do not recall UAE being involved in Block 70. UAE-AF operates Block 60, Block 70 has yet to be developed.

 

[alamgir]

block 70 is already developed,we just have to pay the royalty amount to UAE AF.qout...

most of indian defence bugat spended in internal security to safe forced indian union

 

[Contrarian]

So according to you, i could put all of US's top gear in the LCA and it makes the LCA better than the raptor? Because of course, it would have TVC, quad fly-by-wire, this missile and that. There are basic differences b/w planes.

Again, China is still buying Su-30MKK planes from Russia, JF-17 is just a light weight fighter to fill the skies with quantity, as i'v said before, it cant match any of the planes like MiG 29's, Mirage 2005's or Su-30MKI. So quit dreaming.

Double goes for J-10. Prove somewhere the specs you SAY it will have. If even China does not think that it is a worthy competitor to the flanker, how and why do Pakistani's think that it would match the MKI?? Putting on all the missiles, it would still be inferior to the Russian armaments. Just the argument that-its light, low RCS, etc, etc does not hold any ground when it was not designed to be a match for flanker. Like you said, thats J-11B or whatever. So think about actually matching a Sukhoi-30MKI when you actually get THAT plane, not J-10!

You place too much emphasis on the AWAC, it will only give situational awareness, it wont give a radar lock and thus your planes wont be able to fire from the distance, whereas to fire the missile the MKI would have a radar lock already. How the hell does the AWAC negate the Radar advantages of the MKI!!. Not to mention the AESA we'r getting!!

As far as EM/ECM go, well you should know that India has developed with Israel the Ec/ECM suite that Israel plans to put up on its F-35 planes! Now i am sure that the F-16's would have better ECM pods than the one that was designed for the F-35 by both India/Israel, which would not have been done ,if it was not superior to the original ECM suite that would come with thte plane. Now i am sure that the ECM suite that US is giving with the JSF is inferior to what it has given to Pakistan in its F-16's.

In any case, its almost sure we'r getting the MiG 35, and we'd MKI'ze it, so Su-30MKI would no longer be India's top of the line plane. Hell, now there are 230 Su-30MKI's scheduled instead of the original 190. In addition we would have 50 Mirage 2005's. Upgraded MiG 29's which would match F-16's lest they be blk 60 (which IS a true 4.5 gen a/c). And PAF would field, dunno, about 100 odd F-16's and JF-17.

Now, again you think that if you put a GRIFO-M radar on a plane that should have been retired so long ago to combat with the latest Mirages that the opponent has? Just because it has BVR, would it mean that it has a radar bigger than the one that the upgraded Mirages are going to be fitted with??

 

[Contrarian]

block 70 is already developed,we just have to pay the royalty amount to UAE AF.qout...

most of indian defence bugat spended in internal security to safe forced indian union

We have a HUGE defence budget, so we dont mind, its only growing, and that only makes us happier.

BTW, LM is developing the F-16NG(next generation), read in their site or somewhere, will try and find the link, so thats prolly what is the blk 70?

 

[Contrarian]

Farnborough: Lockheed works to define next F-16

Lockheed Martin is working to define the configuration of a "next-generation" F-16NG to meet the requirements of emerging customers, potentially including India. Final definition of the configuration is awaiting firm requirements, but is intended to combine "the best of Block 50 and Block 60, with elements from the F-22 and F-35", the Rob Weiss, vice-president business development.

Enhancements under consideration include further uprated versions of the General Electric F110 and Pratt & Whitney F100 engines and a later generation of active electronically scanned array (AESA) than the Northrop APG-80 agile-beam radar in the F-16E/F Block 60.

Although all F-16s and its F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) use Northrop radars, Weiss says Lockheed is "looking more broadly" for the F-16NG, suggesting that Raytheon - which produces AESA radars for the Boeing F-15 and F/A-18E/F - has at least an opportunity to bid.

As well as India, which is expected to issue a request for proposals (RFP) for 126 multi-role fighters later this year, Weiss says emerging customers include existing F-16 operators who need to recapitalise their fleets, but do not plan to buy the F-35 until later in the next decade. "The F-16NG would be a good transition to the F-35," he says. Weiss says the F-16NG will not be fully defined until after India has issued its RFP and the US government decides what technology will be releasable. Depending on the Indian requirement, and other potential customers, the final configuration could have a capability "less, equal to or better than" the Block 60, he says.

Lockheed Martin Aeronautics president Ralph Heath says he is confident the company can tailor an aircraft for India that is sufficiently different to the Block 50/52 F-16 planned to be purchased by neighbour Pakistan to satisfy India.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Article...rough+Lockheed+works+to+define+next+F-16.html

 

[vnomad]

Hell, now there are 230 Su-30MKI's scheduled instead of the original 190.

That would be an overkill. Are you sure of this? Its the first time I'm hearing about it.

 

[alamgir]

We have a HUGE defence budget, so we dont mind, its only growing, and that only makes us happier.

BTW, LM is developing the F-16NG(next generation), read in their site or somewhere, will try and find the link, so thats prolly what is the blk 70?

us spend 4 bilion dollar per month in iraq for 140 ,000 troops. incase of india only 700,000 troops in kashmir in north east other several thosend troops.according to PM of india in 14 states of indain union seperation movments are activeit official statment non official are 20 states out of 27.it means at least 8 to 9 hunderd thosend army, pera milatry forces in conditions of war. how huge defence budget to full fill this burden. IAF declare to buy 126 high tech. planes more then six years ago but still waiting GOI decians

 

[Introvert]

U.S. To Take Part in India Defense Exhibition for First Time​

Thirty firms from the United States will exhibit at India’s annual aerospace and defense exhibition next year, the first time American companies have taken part in the fair, an official said Dec. 20.
“America has never participated earlier. They were not willing to sell defense items. But we have now a new relationship,” Indian defense ministry secretary K.P. Singh told reporters.
“It shows the great confidence of American companies in India,” he said.
“It is a direct consequence of the nuclear agreement,” he added, referring to a landmark bill for Washington to transfer nuclear fuel and technology to India, which was signed into law by U.S. President George W. Bush on Dec. 18.
The aerospace and defense exhibition will take place in the southern city of Bangalore from February 7-11, 2007. The U.S. firms set to take part include Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman.
India is the largest arms purchaser among emerging nations and said last month that it will not prune defense spending because of the growing threat from terrorism and ongoing regional tensions.
India annually spends $14 billion, or 2.34 percent of its gross domestic product, on its military. Since 2004 it has either spent or committed billions of dollars in modernization projects planned until 2010.
The country is also expected to launch a tender for 126 warplanes, a contract estimated to be worth between $6.5 billion and $9 billion.

 

[Contrarian]

That would be an overkill. Are you sure of this? Its the first time I'm hearing about it.

yep, saw some Russian report in BR or India Defense. Confused. Anyhow, read that there were going to be 40 more MKI's, it was also debated whether is being announced that the already ordered 40 are comming or are 40 new ones ordered, but it was decided that there are 40 more orders. Let me try and find the link.

BTW, why do u think its an overkill??

 

[Quwa]

So according to you, i could put all of US's top gear in the LCA and it makes the LCA better than the raptor? Because of course, it would have TVC, quad fly-by-wire, this missile and that. There are basic differences b/w planes.

There is also a wide generation gap between the LCA and Raptor, the former is 4th and later is 5th. It is not like JF-17 and Su-30MKI, which are both 4th generation. Add the top-end technology on JF-17, and the gap between it and the Flanker closes.

Again, China is still buying Su-30MKK planes from Russia, JF-17 is just a light weight fighter to fill the skies with quantity, as i'v said before, it cant match any of the planes like MiG 29's, Mirage 2005's or Su-30MKI. So quit dreaming.

Okay, when was the last time PLAAF placed an order for the Su-30MKKs? 2002? 2003? Have they ordered any since the government started disclosing the J-10? Have the Chinese even begun talking about more Su-30MKKs? Give me a link on whether China bought additional Su-30MKKs after 2003-2004.

Double goes for J-10. Prove somewhere the specs you SAY it will have.

Be specific, if you're going to ask for sources - then tell me exactly what you want.

If even China does not think that it is a worthy competitor to the flanker, how and why do Pakistani's think that it would match the MKI?? Putting on all the missiles, it would still be inferior to the Russian armaments. Just the argument that-its light, low RCS, etc, etc does not hold any ground when it was not designed to be a match for flanker. Like you said, thats J-11B or whatever. So think about actually matching a Sukhoi-30MKI when you actually get THAT plane, not J-10!

The PLAAF publically said 2 J-10s intercepted 4 Su-27/30s successfully. Link:

Prior to this, PLAAF officials have constantly said that the J-10 beat the Flanker in DACT trials and stuff. So, contrary to what you claim - the Chinese believe that the Su-27 is not worthy competitor to the J-10.

J-10 was designed as an air superiority fighter that would very likely come into contact with Flankers and Fulcrums. Link

The J-10 development programme, also known as “Project 8610”, officially began in 1986 to counter the fourth-generation fighters such as MiG-29 and Su-27 then being introduced by the Soviet Union. The aircraft was initially designed as an air-superiority fighter aircraft but changing requirements later shift the development towards a multirole fighter.

So not only did the J-10 beat the Su-27 today, it was primarily designed to take on the Flanker & Fulcrum during the design stages.

You place too much emphasis on the AWAC, it will only give situational awareness, it wont give a radar lock and thus your planes wont be able to fire from the distance, whereas to fire the missile the MKI would have a radar lock already. How the hell does the AWAC negate the Radar advantages of the MKI!!. Not to mention the AESA we'r getting!!

Over Pakistan, the AEW&C scenario does give the PAF advantages over Su-30MKI. The considerably longer radar range of the Erieye & Hawkeye would be provided to datalinked fighters, this negates Su-30MKI's radar advantages quite a bit. Su-30MKI might have a radar lock, but what about its BVR-AAM? What's its range compared to the likes of AIM-120C5? If an F-16 with a detection range of 105km had a BVR missile that could be fired from 110km, compared to an Su-30MKI with a longer detection range but a shorter range missile - where exactly is MKI better? It is a bigger plane too!

As far as EM/ECM go, well you should know that India has developed with Israel the Ec/ECM suite that Israel plans to put up on its F-35 planes!

Can you please provide a link/source to that?

In any case, its almost sure we'r getting the MiG 35, and we'd MKI'ze it, so Su-30MKI would no longer be India's top of the line plane. Hell, now there are 230 Su-30MKI's scheduled instead of the original 190. In addition we would have 50 Mirage 2005's. Upgraded MiG 29's which would match F-16's lest they be blk 60 (which IS a true 4.5 gen a/c). And PAF would field, dunno, about 100 odd F-16's and JF-17.

LMAO, again with the wild rant. At least provide one valid link to support your claims. The words "thought to beat all except Block 60" from a Russian advertisement do not make the upgraded IAF MiG-29 better than the F-16C/D Block 52+ and F-16MLU-3.

Now, again you think that if you put a GRIFO-M radar on a plane that should have been retired so long ago to combat with the latest Mirages that the opponent has? Just because it has BVR, would it mean that it has a radar bigger than the one that the upgraded Mirages are going to be fitted with??

Speak for yourself, those Mirages are older than your MiG-21s and the former still has lower attrition rates. Again, if the Grifo M can detect a fighter at say 50-60km and have a BVR-AAM of up to 60km range, then that basically means the guy on the other end is vulnerable to a BVR attack.

You're blinded by pure uber-bharat rhetoric.