India will never attack Pak from Afghanistan'

[Ticker]

Ya same like ZAB......

Seems like there are lot of coincidences between Gandhi family and Bhutto family

Nope - not like ZAB.

To the contrary - there are people in Pakistan who accuse ZAB for being partly responsible for break up of the country.

Yes, the Gandhi family and Bhutto family have lot of coincidences - both are dirty rich.

 

[Badeekh]

congrats about ISI being the topper of the lot......
about ur golden moments.....for ur sake hope they come soon......otherwise waiting with zaid hamid wud make u insanely insane

n yeah....welcome to pdf.....

hahaha u need to deplore for that, know why? coz if we go mad.......India needs to beg KHEM KARAN and 0.5353 as a mean to say salby...

i'd like to reply ur logical arguments, not stoner statements..!!

 

[Contrarian]

The geopolitical realities for a hemmed in India from three sides does not auger well and neither places India in a stronger position to assert itself despite its economic growth and defence spending. This is a reality factor that you may like to understand more.

When you interfere through use of terrorism in Pakistan you must expect a response beyond a certain level. And you must remember that Indian fault lines can also be exploited equally well if not more. India may have more wherewithal, yet the space has not totally been closed and remains exploitative and thus exploitable. After all, when the Americans draw down in Afghanistan, where will the fighters go next.

When did i imply that Pakistan cannot use its resources to back secessionism in India. I said that today as a result of economic, geographic and international political influence India wields, India can act in a stronger manner than Pakistan.

Secondly - what 3 sides? Pakistan, China & ?
I hope you are not talking about BD or Myanmar?

 

[deckingraj]

The geopolitical realities for a hemmed in India from three sides does not auger well and neither places India in a stronger position to assert itself despite its economic growth and defence spending. This is a reality factor that you may like to understand more.

When you interfere through use of terrorism in Pakistan you must expect a response beyond a certain level. And you must remember that Indian fault lines can also be exploited equally well if not more. India may have more wherewithal, yet the space has not totally been closed and remains exploitative and thus exploitable. After all, when the Americans draw down in Afghanistan, where will the fighters go next.

Nowhere....one has to understand that world has changed!!....World has no appetite for these so called fighters(a.k.a terrorists) anymore...Now very specific to the context of this discussion the point is very clear...India has more appetite to take blows and much more power pack to return the favor in return......though i am quiet positive that leadership of both the nations will act sane and we never have to get into this mess...

 

[deckingraj]

When did i imply that Pakistan cannot use its resources to back secessionism in India. I said that today as a result of economic, geographic and international political influence India wields, India can act in a stronger manner than Pakistan.

Secondly - what 3 sides? Pakistan, China & ?
I hope you are not talking about BD or Myanmar?

If you imply that then you are being generous...Pakistan has tried it level best especially when India was at its weakest and they were pretty good viz-a-viz what they are now....Backing such a secession is one thing...getting meaningful results another!!!

 

[notorious_eagle]

Not to point out something very pertinent in your analysis or anything. But do consider the fact that India was able to not only survive but put down the only viable secession movement in India - in Kashmir, when India was at her nadir and Pakistan in terms of power(economic/military/diplomatic) was at her zenith vis-a-vis India.

The succession movement that India faced is child's play compared to what Pakistan and the US is facing in WOT. One only needs to look at the level of sophistication, training and weaponry to reach a conclusion. At no point did the Kashmiri succession receive a massive state backing, they were at best a bunch of rag tag group looking for a cause.

Today, i feel you donot realize just how much the circumstances have changed. How much India's military, economic, political/ public relations strength has grown. And India has left Pakistan miles behind in this great game. India is not as straitjacketed as it used to be in the 90's. This is the macro scenario in which you believe Pakistan can achieve success of a secession movement in India by its backing.

I know exactly how much India's clout has grown. A booming economy with a very strong Armed Forces certainly does raise the stature of your nation. But if you analyze closely, the growing clout has had no helping hand in India trying to coerce Pakistan to get what she wants. After the Mumbai attacks, massive sabre rattling was launched from the Indian side but at the end nothing concrete came out of it. The Mumbai attacks did prove one thing that Pakistan for the time being does appear to be immune from any Indian military or diplomatic attacks.

When it comes to micro scenario - India has used the past decade to completely ramp up its infrastructure related to Pakistani pushing of insurgents across borders. From deploying more troops to having better equipped troops to employing a whole host of technologies and obstacles to make infiltration multiple times tougher than it used to be in the 90's even if Pakistani Army fully backs such infiltration bids.

No doubt the Indian side has made massive gains on their side, but you cannot discount the fact that the issue of Kashmiri Mujahideens has also dyed down. Musharraf was quite instrumental in my opinion in cracking their support base and making them toothless. On the other hand, the invasion of Afghanistan ensured that all these fighters will be going to Afghanistan to fight the bigger enemy rather than the smaller enemy. Thus, a host of factors played a key role in pacifying Kashmir for India.

Today India can spread secessionism in Pakistan without a corresponding and an equal counteraction even with US remaining neutral to both sides by sheer gains that India has made. And in any such venture of both India and Pakistan, today India does have the wherewithal to be more effective.

Sir with all due respect, you are way over estimating your strength. India can certainly create problems for Pakistan but so can Pakistan for India. India is much bigger and has bigger internal problems compared to Pakistan. So far the opposition that India has faced with her internal rebels is lousy at best. If this rebellion is brought onto the same level of sophistication of what has been seen in WOT, you can be assured that it will be very bloody for India. I am not saying that it will lead to the downfall of the Indian Central Government, but it certainly spill a lot of blood. I pray to God India and Pakistan don't engage each other in a full proxy war.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Well i guess Pakistani friends first need to make up their mind on who is actually after this so called proxy war(even though not an iota of proof has been shared but let's leave that for a moment).

Pakistan does have proof but its not a slam dunk to implicate India. Weapons with Indian serial numbers, money tracked back to Indian consulates in Afghanistan and separatist leaders meeting Indian diplomats in Afghanistan. That is proof enough for us but not enough to implicate India. Lets not get into too much detail regarding this, we all know how the espionage world works. India is yet to field any conclusive proof that Pakistani Agencies are behind terrorism inside India.

On one hand they say that US and Afghan forces are leaving porus borders just to ease out movement of Afghan terrorists to hurt Pakistani interests and in the same breath they blame these so called indian consulates....

I would blame the Afghan Army and ISAF for their incompetence for their failure to seal the border. I blame the Indian consulates for providing weapons and money to separatist elements inside Pakistan.

but not sure if anyone is ready to look at Pakistan's U-turn on terror definition post 9/11 viz-a-viz terror shelters that Pakistani generals were happily sponsoring...

The support ended when these terrorists started killing Pakistanis.

 

[Viper0011.]

Today, i feel you donot realize just how much the circumstances have changed. How much India's military, economic, political/ public relations strength has grown. And India has left Pakistan miles behind in this great game. India is not as straitjacketed as it used to be in the 90's. This is the macro scenario in which you believe Pakistan can achieve success of a secession movement in India by its backing.

When it comes to micro scenario - India has used the past decade to completely ramp up its infrastructure related to Pakistani pushing of insurgents across borders. From deploying more troops to having better equipped troops to employing a whole host of technologies and obstacles to make infiltration multiple times tougher than it used to be in the 90's even if Pakistani Army fully backs such infiltration bids.

Regarding funding/backing other movements using BD or Nepal. Well, BD has changed too.

Today India can spread secessionism in Pakistan without a corresponding and an equal counteraction even with US remaining neutral to both sides by sheer gains that India has made. And in any such venture of both India and Pakistan, today India does have the wherewithal to be more effective.

You have some valid points but again and like the others, biased towards India of course. India can push Pakistan towards a military conflict and sectarian violance (which I think happens on daily basis anyways). But can India take Mumbai and a few other economical hubs under the same situation? This is a silly argument. Pakistan has no economy so there's just people getting killed. Sectarian or whatever violence going on in industrial hubs paralyzes the economic activity. So even with more power, and whatever abilities India may have.....they need to be careful. The ONLY resolution to both of you guys' problems are to SIT DOWN and resolve your issues. Unfortunately, you may win a war with Pakistan in a longer term conflict. But the impacts of that, will take Pakistan 100 years back and India 50 years back. So it's up to you guys to decide how far back stone age life you want to live. If the idea sounds dangerous (which it does to me), then drop the macho talk and work together. Connected through roads, Pakistan and India can then access 2 more billion people to market their products!!!! Your brain capacity is the same and so are the genetics so no ONE nation is better than the other from a human intellect's standpoint. USE your energies towards peace and human growth. Not on a conflict that no one can win!

 

[Contrarian]

The succession movement that India faced is child's play compared to what Pakistan and the US is facing in WOT. One only needs to look at the level of sophistication, training and weaponry to reach a conclusion.

The words you use - sophistication, training and weaponry are always relative. Relative to the time frame when India had the worst of it - in the early 90's, it was equally sophisticated, the weapons and comm equipment used surprising, and the training suggested that they were no rag-tag bunch. They were trained. So were our resources to tackle them at that time. It was overwhelming then, to say the least, like it is to you now.

At no point did the Kashmiri succession receive a massive state backing, they were at best a bunch of rag tag group looking for a cause.

If you truly believe that, then there is no point in continuing a discussion with you. The Kashmiri secession movement received full and massive state backing - from funding to arms to training.

If you feel that they were a rag-tag bunch of local terrorists - then either you start to get more informed or we stop this discussion as it will get futile.

I know exactly how much India's clout has grown. A booming economy with a very strong Armed Forces certainly does raise the stature of your nation. But if you analyze closely, the growing clout has had no helping hand in India trying to coerce Pakistan to get what she wants. After the Mumbai attacks, massive sabre rattling was launched from the Indian side but at the end nothing concrete came out of it. The Mumbai attacks did prove one thing that Pakistan for the time being does appear to be immune from any Indian military or diplomatic attacks.

I agree, that Pakistan is indeed immune from Indian military attacks. They are not however even remotely close to being so diplomatically. Diplomatically, or rather politically Pakistan is today highly vulnerable from India and this leverage is only increasing.

The way things are headed in another 5-10 years, you will be able to add economic threats to the list. Pakistan has so far refused to trade because of this reason, and India has been pushing it for the same reason. With trade relations normalizing, this would emerge as a very potent factor.

No doubt the Indian side has made massive gains on their side, but you cannot discount the fact that the issue of Kashmiri Mujahideens has also dyed down. Musharraf was quite instrumental in my opinion in cracking their support base and making them toothless. On the other hand, the invasion of Afghanistan ensured that all these fighters will be going to Afghanistan to fight the bigger enemy rather than the smaller enemy. Thus, a host of factors played a key role in pacifying Kashmir for India.

Ofcourse. I totally agree that there have been extranous factors involved. 9/11 and its consequences being the 700 pound gorilla there. However i pointed out that instead of thanking the lucky stars for it, India has been busy. All infrastructure has been put up, technology deployed, soldiers trained, cooperation with other nations used to learn. India today is far more potent to reduce/minimize infiltration even with the full backing of Pakistani military(read artillary cover fire included) than it was earlier. Today you will find, even with the best of support, it is extremely tough for terrorists to cross over the border.

Sir with all due respect, you are way over estimating your strength. India can certainly create problems for Pakistan but so can Pakistan for India. India is much bigger and has bigger internal problems compared to Pakistan. So far the opposition that India has faced with her internal rebels is lousy at best. If this rebellion is brought onto the same level of sophistication of what has been seen in WOT, you can be assured that it will be very bloody for India. I am not saying that it will lead to the downfall of the Indian Central Government, but it certainly spill a lot of blood. I pray to God India and Pakistan don't engage each other in a full proxy war.

It will be bloody. I will not be as problematic as it is for Pakistan however. India being big in size, brings in benefits as well. A very huge state security apparatus being one of them. India has utilized and will utilize flooding of affected regions with boots on the ground - the one thing Americans cannot do, and keep them there - the one thing Pakistan cannot do.

There is a reason almost all the secessionist movements in India are dying and One of the foremost factors is India's ability to kill the leadership and flood the area(s).

 

[KRAIT]

People tend to overlook that India is already attacking Pakistan in other ways. If our investment in Afghanistan's natural resources materialize then it is essentially using Afghanistan against Pakistan. Proxy war also do more damage if you take economics into account.

All India needs is attack on US embassy in India after 2014, after NATO's withdrawal, by terrorists having link in Pakistan. Id sanctions imposed on Pakistan, India will have ample time to strengthen in eastern side while resting on west.

 

[deckingraj]

Pakistan does have proof but its not a slam dunk to implicate India. Weapons with Indian serial numbers, money tracked back to Indian consulates in Afghanistan and separatist leaders meeting Indian diplomats in Afghanistan. That is proof enough for us but not enough to implicate India. Lets not get into too much detail regarding this, we all know how the espionage world works. India is yet to field any conclusive proof that Pakistani Agencies are behind terrorism inside India.

You call something a proof if you cannot implicate someone?? Anyhow if whatever you are calling are proofs that are proofs but yet not conclusive enough then i am afraid your govt. is actively involved in sponsoring terrorism in India even right now...anyhow whatever we have, we make sure we raise those in the correct forums and get whatever leverage we can..Not sure what is stopping you guys from doing that....At the minimum you can start with your friends like China, Arabs etc...

I would blame the Afghan Army and ISAF for their incompetence for their failure to seal the border. I blame the Indian consulates for providing weapons and money to separatist elements inside Pakistan.

Just think about it a bit....What route as per you are we using to smuggle these so called Indian weapons to Afghanistan and then making sure we are able to tap on the incompetncy of both USAF and Afghan forces?? We must be doing an amazing job because not only we are able to fool you people but NATO as well...b/w i am afraid ut the feeling i have about this is that most of my Pakistni friends here believe NATO is hands in glove with India to break the back of Pakistan....

Money, weapons...well how about Training? There have been big audacious attacks in the heart of Army/Navy/Air-Force installations...Lot of training is surely required for it...Do share your thoughts on that as well...

The support ended when these terrorists started killing Pakistanis.

And why did they started killing the Pakistanis??..To me the seeds of this trigger was that U-turn...b/w how abt those who are not killing Pakistani's??

 

[deckingraj]

Pakistan does have proof but its not a slam dunk to implicate India. Weapons with Indian serial numbers, money tracked back to Indian consulates in Afghanistan and separatist leaders meeting Indian diplomats in Afghanistan. That is proof enough for us but not enough to implicate India. Lets not get into too much detail regarding this, we all know how the espionage world works. India is yet to field any conclusive proof that Pakistani Agencies are behind terrorism inside India.

You call something a proof if you cannot implicate someone?? Anyhow if whatever you are calling are proofs that are proofs but yet not conclusive enough then i am afraid your govt. is actively involved in sponsoring terrorism in India even right now...anyhow whatever we have, we make sure we raise those in the correct forums and get whatever leverage we can..Not sure what is stopping you guys from doing that....At the minimum you can start with your friends like China, Arabs etc...

I would blame the Afghan Army and ISAF for their incompetence for their failure to seal the border. I blame the Indian consulates for providing weapons and money to separatist elements inside Pakistan.

Just think about it a bit....What route as per you are we using to smuggle these so called Indian weapons to Afghanistan and then making sure we are able to tap on the incompetncy of both USAF and Afghan forces?? We must be doing an amazing job because not only we are able to fool you people but NATO as well...b/w i am afraid ut the feeling i have about this is that most of my Pakistni friends here believe NATO is hands in glove with India to break the back of Pakistan....

Money, weapons...well how about Training? There have been big audacious attacks in the heart of Army/Navy/Air-Force installations...Lot of training is surely required for it...Do share your thoughts on that as well...

The support ended when these terrorists started killing Pakistanis.

And why did they started killing the Pakistanis??..To me the seeds of this trigger was that U-turn...b/w how abt those who are not killing Pakistani's??

 

[474474]

I think we should destroy all hospitals and schools we built as goodwill during 80s taliban era, and send all afghans refugees to India

 

[CYNOX]

There is no Doubt that india is sponsoring seperatist and extremist elements especially TTP along with Some other Agencies of involved countries Arms, Mines, training Funding But that being Said. the lawmaker is right INDIA CAN NEVER STAGE OR MOUNT an INVASION of Pakistan From Afghanistan Never, First of all its logistically Impossible a Task, even with Russian Help. Number two Indian Forces would Disappear in the Mountains of pakhtoon areas as that is an area from where every Person wants a GO at The INDIAN ARMY!

 

[CYNOX]

I think we should destroy all hospitals and schools we built as goodwill during 80s taliban era, and send all afghans refugees to India

I have Never Read or Heard More of A nonsense than this statement ! how could you Destroy Afghan infrastructure schools etc made by Pakistan India USA RUSSIA or afghans themselves! that's pure cold blooded Expression and Afghan refugees! they are our People our Brothers its our duty to take care of them and you say such things as sending them To INDIA ! well that's just IT. i have never Felt More ashamed than this Ever!