India tried to attack the US Navy in 1971 (repost with proof)

[Tornado23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_of_war_during_the_Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1971

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Instrument_of_Surrender

There are plenty of neutral references in those webpages. Please give yours, but before you do, do tell me what your point is? That there were no PoWs? That the number of PoWs was less than 90,000? What is it you want proved?



Yes, I agree that your armymen raped and molested Bengalis. You consider that a victory?

Most professional militaries consider victory to be gaining terrotory or achieving other objectives. And losting territory (in fact, half the country) is a defeat by any definition. You lost half your country - that is the defeat.

Hey @waz, do you agree with the above poster, that you had a glorious victory in 1971 because your army raped and killed innocent women and children?

According to Lt Gen Naizi, Corps Commander of Eastern Command in 1971.

“The total fighting strength available to me [Gen Naizi] was forty-five thousand – 34,000 from the army, plus 11,000 from CAF and West Pakistan civilian police and armed non-combatants”who were fighting against the insurgents. Even if the strength of HL, MLA, depots, training institutes, workshops, factories, nurses and lady doctors, non-combatants like barbers, cooks, shoemakers and sweepers are added, even then the total comes to only 55,000.

Air Marshal Rahim khan, CNC Pakistan Air Force (1969-1972), had stated:

“The number of regular Pakistani troops in East Pakistan never exceeded 33,000-34,000. The rest is just propaganda by India and the Awami League, to magnify their success….”

Air Marshal Zulfiqar Ali Khan, who commended Eastern Wing of Pakistan Air Forces had asserted the same in these words:

“At the maximum, our regular fighting force in East Pakistan in December 1971 stood at 34,000. This figure does not include paramilitary personnel, military police, etc. Even if you include the auxiliaries, the total does not cross 45,000”.

General Akhtar Abdul Rehman. Former Vice Chief of Army Staff, speaking on the 1971 conundrum stated

“It was impossible for the 34,000 Pakistani troops in East Pakistan or for that matter any army in the world to fight against the combined strength of 200,000 Indian army and 170,000 Mukti Bahini, If not more, that too in a hostile environment 1200 miles away from West Pakistan …… Keeping into account all this, if the Indians still feel that they achieved a stunning military victory against Pakistan, I can only say they have fallen prey to their own propaganda”.

US congressman, Charles Wilson (famous for Charlie Wilson’s War) in a discussion with Pakistani diplomats in Washington DC remarked.

“……In 1971, it was certainly not possible for the 35,000 Pakistani troops in Dhaka to fight against the combined strength of 200,000 Indian army and the more than 100,000 Indian-trained Bengali guerillas.”

Another US congressman, Stephen Solarz, commenting on the War of 1971 in June 1989, remarked,

“Pakistanis are energetic, vibrant, and resilient. We must not be misled by 1971. It was certainly not possible for the 40,000 odd Pakistani army in Dhaka to fight against much larger Indian army and Indian-trained Bengali Bahinis in a hostile territory ….”

K C Pant, Indian former Defense Minister in September, 1994 during a discussion on Indo-Pak relations held in New Delhi, said

“Peace is important between Pakistan and India. We respect the professional competence of the Pakistani soldier. Had democracy continued in Pakistan, Islamabad would not have suffered the debacle resulting in the surrender of its 40,000 military personnel to India in East Pakistan”.

Sarmila Bose, the famous Indian Bengali writer and Associate Researcher at Oxford University in her book Dead Reckoning published in 2011, asserts

“…… t appears that while the total figure in Indian custody is about right, to state that 93,000 soldiers were taken prisoner is wrong, and creates confusions by greatly inflating the Pakistani fighting force in East Pakistan”.

Javed Jabbar, former Pakistani Minister of Information in his article, Estranged siblings-Pakistan and Bangladesh, 40 years later, wrote

“Pakistan’s armed forces did not exceed 45,000 troops at optimal levels. The 90,000 prisoners-of-war held by India included over 50,000 non- combatant, unarmed West Pakistani civilians.”

S. M. Hali, a well-known Pakistani analyst in his article, Breaking myths of 1971 Pak-India war writes,

“The total strength of Pakistan Army in East Pakistan (in 1971) was 40,000….”

Should I be surprised your source is Wikipedia?

 

[arjunk]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_of_war_during_the_Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1971

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Instrument_of_Surrender

Wikipedia is edited by Indians. 90,000 POWS includes 15,000+ civilians, air force personnel and irregular militia, as the page itself says.

Most professional militaries consider victory to be gaining terrotory or achieving other objectives.

Is he representative of the Pakistan Military?
Anyway,
Pakistan vs India:
- India gives up Chamb to Pakistan
- India returns 15,000km^2 of territory
- India returns 93,000 trllion PoWs (or whatever number you guys are on now)
- A new state which becomes hostile to India and begs for Pakistani Military help shortly after its independence is born.



If Pakistan was outnumbered and lost so bad why did this war end on such unfavourable terms for India? Because of the goodwill of Indira Gandhi the genocidal dictator? Or because India's military didn't and couldn't do shit?

And losting territory (in fact, half the country) is a defeat by any definition. You lost half your country - that is the defeat.

Hey @waz, do you agree with the above poster, that you had a glorious victory in 1971 because your army raped and killed innocent women and children?

Why are you bitching about being raped? This thread is about the USS Enterprise standoff.

 

[KAL-EL]

I wonder how many ships they might've have sunk?

 

[Tornado23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_of_war_during_the_Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1971

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Instrument_of_Surrender


@Primus :
Wikipedia is not a source - as I clearly stated, those webpages have plenty of primary sources to their claims. Wikipedia has sourced articles.


Now I'd like to ask you again - what exactly is it that you want empirical evidence for? The absolute number?

Okay. I'm disputing the number for POW.


Now we have that basis...your sources for 93k pow.

1 source came from a book about soybeans in South Asia.
1 source from an Indian Air Force pilot
1 source from a dubious "BBC" link
1 source from another Indian.


These are neutral?

 

[waz]

As I have been stating repeatedly - even if we take that to be true, how many military PoWs does that make? 45,000? And there are Pakistanis on this thread boasting about ONE PoW in 2019 whom they had to return the very next day, because they knew better than to incur India's wrath.

Oh, and you also surrendered half the country, in addition to tens of thousands of PoWs.


You are not Chinese. It is pathetic, trying to bask in their glory when confronted with your shameful past. Should I talk about all the American drone strikes that your impotent military were unable to prevent in recent years?

BTW, we paid China back with interest, and true to form, a year or so later, they admitted their own casualties. Can you imagine your country killing Chinese or any soldiers from powerful countries? India defends her territory zealously. Pakistan GUBOs when Americans bomb your people to oblivion, Pakistan begs the iron brothers for money to keep bailing them out, Pakistan....oh you get the picture.

Do you realise what odds that 45,000 faced, and here you are talking big no worries.

India's wraith lol! Your pilot was paraded live on national TV and humiliated, what did you do about it? Nothing. Yet you rant on about power.

Just how did you pay the Chinese back with 'interest' do tell? The reason why people are going on about it is that you guys had even odds, similar numbers yet got defeated. You didn't even realise numbers of your troops were missing, including senior staff until the Chinese alerted you, yet you call the Pakistani military impotent. You guys must be castrated then in this case.

Compulsive lying is quite a trait you posses. Where did the Chinese admit the ridiculous numbers you made up i.e. 40 dead. They even gave the ranks and names of the 5 who died, which makes sense considering how many of your men they took prisoner.

Also stick to the topic, the next time you talk about Americans bombing blah blah you'll be off this forum back to the $hit holes you call Indian discussion boards.

 

[Moonaman.Varavayi]

Also stick to the topic, the next time you talk about Americans bombing blah blah you'll be off this forum back to the $hit holes you call Indian discussion boards.

You do understand that this was my point too, right? Stick to the topic? I am not the one who dragged China into the discussion, and I was pointing out that that is as off topic as Americans bombing you for years.

But I don't see you warning Pakistani posters trying to borrow glory from the Chinese.

Okay. I'm disputing the number for POW.


Now we have that basis...your sources for 93k pow.

1 source came from a book about soybeans in South Asia.
1 source from an Indian Air Force pilot
1 source from a dubious "BBC" link
1 source from another Indian.


These are neutral?

Could you please tell me what the number or POWs was? I can link a BBC video if you like, and BBC is neutral. Besides, the number is widely acknowledged - why else would PAKISTAN itself release that stamp?

 

[Moonaman.Varavayi]

Why are you bitching about being raped? This thread is about the USS Enterprise standoff.

I'm not. I was responding to the Pakistani poster who claimed that because Pakistani forces raped and molested millions of women and children, and faced no consequences, it was a victory for them. You should read the post I was responding to.

About the USS enterprise standoff - as I said before, the USS Enterprise turned tail and wisely decided to stay away when Soviet nuclear submarines popped up to say hello.

The very first post on this thread has some creative fiction from you to soothe your ego.

 

[Tornado23]

You do understand that this was my point too, right? Stick to the topic? I am not the one who dragged China into the discussion, and I was pointing out that that is as off topic as Americans bombing you for years.

But I don't see you warning Pakistani posters trying to borrow glory from the Chinese.


Could you please tell me what the number or POWs was? I can link a BBC video if you like, and BBC is neutral. Besides, the number is widely acknowledged - why else would PAKISTAN itself release that stamp?

Do some maths. There were 34,000 regular troops available, alongside 833 and 1000 personnel from navy and airforce in the east. Razakars numbered a maximum of 11,000 bringing the total number to 56,000 at best. This is not counting the casualties Pakistan suffered during the war. As per the quotes I have given you from historians and senators present during the war, the number of 93,000 soldiers POW is impossible to achieve as they weren't that many soldiers even present.


Also is the BBC a neutral source now? Thought it was biased when they released their modi documentary

 

[Moonaman.Varavayi]

I wonder how many ships they might've have sunk?

Quite a few. Both Karachi harbor (West Pakistan) and Chittagong harbor (East Pakistan) were laid waste to, and every naval and merchant vessel were sunk to Davy Jones:

Operation trident

Do some maths. There were 34,000 regular troops available, alongside 833 and 1000 personnel from navy and airforce in the east. Razakars numbered a maximum of 11,000 bringing the total number to 56,000 at best. This is not counting the casualties Pakistan suffered during the war. As per the quotes I have given you from historians and senators present during the war, the number of 93,000 soldiers POW is impossible to achieve as they weren't that many soldiers even present.


Also is the BBC a neutral source now? Thought it was biased when they released their modi documentary

So let me ask again : How many Pakistani forces surrendered ignominiously? Is it greater that ONE? Because on this thread, you have Pakistanis gloating about ONE PoW from 2019 that they had to release within hours.

Oh and BTW, Pakistan didn't just surrender tens of thousands of fighters - they also surrendered half the country. Small detail, right?

 

[Abid123]

Should I talk about all the American drone strikes that your impotent military were unable to prevent in recent years?

Lmao look at this delusion Indian fucker. You mean all the American drone strikes that happened with our explicit consent. In fact, even helped our ops out. Their strikes didn't stop magically.

We have regularly killed Indians soldiers on the LOC with impunity even when India is the 6x larger country and has the full backing of the US, EU and Russia. We have wiped out thousands of you since 1990s.

I mean how did you retaliate to this?

2008 Mumbai attacks - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You claimed Pakistan was behind it and yet you did even fire a single bullet

 

[Tornado23]

So let me ask again : How many Pakistani forces surrendered ignominiously? Is it greater that ONE? Because on this thread, you have Pakistanis gloating about ONE PoW from 2019 that they had to release within hours.

Oh and BTW, Pakistan didn't just surrender tens of thousands of fighters - they also surrendered half the country. Small detail, right?

You tell me. I just gave you some additional information which clearly shows 93,000 is an impossible figure considering how they weren't anywhere near that many soldiers present in Pakistan.

As for Abhinandan, that event marked the first ever aerial skirmish both Pakistan and India fought in 50 years, which led to an IAF mig21 shot down, an IAF Su30mki shot down, an Mil mi17V5 shot down (FF) and the complete domination of Indian AD. Also the release was a gesture of good will to avert any war from happening.

Also I bet I know what you gonna do in reply to this. Gonna link some fake news indian media link about the MP supposedly saying his legs were shaking or some crap like that.


Oh and you talk about losing half the country when your beloved Akhand Bharat was quartered.

 

[Moonaman.Varavayi]

As for Abhinandan, that event marked the first ever aerial skirmish both Pakistan and India fought in 50 years, which led to an IAF mig21 shot down, an IAF Su30mki shot down, an Mil mi17V5 shot down (FF) and the complete domination of Indian AD. Also the release was a gesture of good will to avert any war from happening.

Also I bet I know what you gonna do in reply to this. Gonna link some fake news indian media link about the MP supposedly saying his legs were shaking or some crap like that.


Oh and you talk about losing half the country when your beloved Akhand Bharat was quartered.

There was no MKI shot down. You also forget the fact that hours earlier, our strike package targeted Balakot and bombed your jihadis and mujashits to oblivion.

When was India quartered?

 

[White and Green with M/S]

There was no MKI shot down. You also forget the fact that hours earlier, our strike package targeted Balakot and bombed your jihadis and mujashits to oblivion.

When was India quartered?

And whole world denied you that you missed the target

 

[Windjammer]

@Moonaman.Varavayi
When you are blabbering nonsense comparing one Indian Pow aka Abhinandan from a 2019 skirmish with those from a full scale war of 1971, your intentions thus become obvious of barking up the wrong tree.
Do you think there were no Indian Pow in 1971. Let me burst your Bharti bubble.
Below is a picture released by Red Cross, showing captured Sikh pilots of Indian Airforce in one POW camp alone, add to this Hindu, Christian and Muslim IAF pilots and other Sikh pilots held at various other POW camps and you get a good idea how PAF whipped IAF in Western theatre. And also read the link as how Bangladesh is often giving you a bloody nose... Doing the job for us.

Pakistan, Lyalpur camp, 12 April 1972, visit to Indian prisoners of war (POWs).
"Sikh pilots, now POWs, passed their time flying kites. Camp authorities forbade this activity. An "homme de confiance", also a POW, explains the visit of Red Cross delegates, emphasizing that he hopes the ICRC can negotiate on their behalf the return of the kites."

DISTURBED BORDER

frontline-thehindu-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Tornado23]

There was no MKI shot down. You also forget the fact that hours earlier, our strike package targeted Balakot and bombed your jihadis and mujashits to oblivion.

When was India quartered?

awwww. Too bad the MKI was shot down. Now the raptor of the east has become the pigeon of the east.

Also fun fact about Balakot, it missed. Nice little detail you missed out.