India to Buy additional 39 Apache's

[Tshering22]

You still have not understood the ROEs for the Indian Armed Forces (and other forces under MoD) within India.

Air-Cover can be provided by the BSF's Air Wing (under MHA) to the the CRPF (also under the MHA) against Naxals or any other insurgents.

I fully understand all the ROEs. But they are not given by the heavens or ordained by the heavenly elders or something.

They are written by humans and written in different times. Now times have changed and naxalism has taken a huge toll on the lives of innocent farmers, poor people and CRPF jawans.

Time to change ROEs.

Why do some of our fellow Indians worship the rulebook like it is ordained by some divine powers? Seriously.

Overrated Modi's out to blow the taxpayers money That's all. Useless purchases.

I was referring to the internal conflict that is going on.

You need to least worry about PM Modi and worry about the retaliation TTP will make on your recent combat operation.

 

[janon]

The wording is still confusing. "...after the first tranche of these..."

Besides, both the IAF and IA operating these birds is a ridiculous duplication of capability. I really hope it's a total of 39, all eventually going to the army. (Although initially 22 might go to the IAF.)

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I fully understand all the ROEs. But they are not given by the heavens or ordained by the heavenly elders or something.

They are written by humans and written in different times. Now times have changed and naxalism has taken a huge toll on the lives of innocent farmers, poor people and CRPF jawans.

Time to change ROEs.

Why do some of our fellow Indians worship the rulebook like it is ordained by some divine powers? Seriously.

No . You do not understand the ROEs; and most importantly WHY they have been formulated as such.
And WHY the Armed Forces have consistently refused to get drawn into that imbroglio.
All the intermittent emotional outbursts from various quarters; notwithstanding.

Since it is a "Law & Order" issue; it has to be dealt with by the appropriate authorities for that; viz. the Police Forces, under both the MHA and the States. There is just no other alternate method.

 

[elitepilot09]

I was referring to the internal conflict that is going on.

You need to least worry about PM Modi and worry about the retaliation TTP will make on your recent combat operation.

Don't mind if I do. Enjoy paying the 2.5? 3? billion bill! Don't forget the 10% tip (which, lets be honest, was probably pocketed by one person or another )

 

[Kompromat]

Time to get more RBS-70s and speed up Anza-III and stingers.

 

[waz]

Time to get more RBS-70s and speed up Anza-III and stingers.

Not needed. In a Pak/Indo scenario, which probably may never happen, they won't play a great role. The air will be saturated with surface to air missiles of all varieties. They are most effective in an anti insurgent role.

 

[Tshering22]

No . You do not understand the ROEs; and most importantly WHY they have been formulated as such.
And WHY the Armed Forces have consistently refused to get drawn into that imbroglio.
All the intermittent emotional outbursts from various quarters; notwithstanding.

Since it is a "Law & Order" issue; it has to be dealt with by the appropriate authorities for that; viz. the Police Forces, under both the MHA and the States. There is just no other alternate method.

Then you simply suggest that we send our CRPF troops into the mouth of death, year after year after year.

Sir, it may be easy for you to say or a bunch of Merc- traveling politicians who drink pure mineral water and work in AC rooms while CRPF jawans die daily becuase of their inaction or their useless thought process.

Sorry, emotions apart, I have family in the defence forces like lakhs of other Indians who are concerned about their people. They are not cannon fodder and are meant to deal with the enemies of the nation; not a bunch of sick savages called maoists who need to be butchered en masse and fed to wild dogs.

Naxalism will end the day IA enters their control zones with gunships, tanks and APC and starts brutally dispatching them in thousands to hell.

Before that, their elements in our news traders have to be hunted down.

Unless we do a China in terms of maoists, we simply cannot fight them endlessly.
Simple.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

The wording is still confusing. "...after the first tranche of these..."

Besides, both the IAF and IA operating these birds is a ridiculous duplication of capability. I really hope it's a total of 39, all eventually going to the army. (Although initially 22 might go to the IAF.)

No there is little likely hood of duplication of roles wrt the Apaches. The Operational doctrines of the AAC and the IAF wrt to Attack Helos have evolved differently. These Helos will operate organically with the Strike Corps of the IA while the IAF will use them for conventional BAS and Armed SAR as well as even a SEAD/DEAD role. Even the operating Theaters are likely to be different. Wait until they get operationally inducted and deployed by the respective services. The differences will be apparent.

 

[janon]

Not needed. In a Pak/Indo scenario, which probably may never happen, they won't play a great role. The air will be saturated with surface to air missiles of all varieties. They are most effective in an anti insurgent role.

On the contrary, they are most effective in an anti-tank role, and as airborne artillery. They would be overkill (pun intended) for insurgents. Besides, India does not use airpower against insurgents, and that's unlikely to change. And even if we wanted helicopters for use against insurgents, we wouldn't get the most expensive one on the planet with the most sophisticated fire control radar out there. Any cheap helo with a cannon will do the job.

Make no mistake, in the armed forces these are going to our strike forces, and the mountain corps. They can decimate tanks and armoured and soft skinned vehicles en masse. If used properly, they will have an important role to play - they woun't be used to fly into a dense air defence network across the border, but they will be used to take care of an enemy armoured thrust, for example. Or to act as very mobile artillery in the mountains.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Then you simply suggest that we send our CRPF troops into the mouth of death, year after year after year.

Sir, it may be easy for you to say or a bunch of Merc- traveling politicians who drink pure mineral water and work in AC rooms while CRPF jawans die daily becuase of their inaction or their useless thought process.

Sorry, emotions apart, I have family in the defence forces like lakhs of other Indians who are concerned about their people. They are not cannon fodder and are meant to deal with the enemies of the nation; not a bunch of sick savages called maoists who need to be butchered en masse and fed to wild dogs.

Naxalism will end the day IA enters their control zones with gunships, tanks and APC and starts brutally dispatching them in thousands to hell.

Before that, their elements in our news traders have to be hunted down.

Unless we do a China in terms of maoists, we simply cannot fight them endlessly.
Simple.

Again there is only a great deal of Emotionalism visible in that post and very little Strategic or Tactical Reasoning.
Which gets clearly demonstrated especially in the underlined part of post.

That battle cannot be fought with Tanks and APC at all . That terrain/topography is unsuitable for Armored Vehicles like Tanks and APC. They will be unable to move in most parts and in some cases will be reduced to becoming immobile 'sitting ducks'.
Just read (since its the month of June---the anniversary of Normandie) about how even the thick 'hedge-row' bocage country nearly defeated Tanks. Even Gunships of any kind are not even the best weapons in this kind of combat. The best method is small groups of Men on the ground moving on foot, swiftly and stealthily away from the 'beaten tracks'. No Vehicle can (or should) move there unless its path/track is confirmed clear of IEDs. You have not apparently been reading about any of the successful attacks carried out on the Police Parties and why the Naxals were successful in each of them..........simply because they were foolish enough to try tactics similar to what you advocate, when they should have known better.

These small highly mobile (infantry-equivalent) forces will need to operate on the basis of intelligence, which is where UAVs can be useful. Apart from that there is little role for aircraft either fixed wing or rotorcraft. Actually "Humint" will be critical much more than the "Elint" that UAVs can provide.

Since you claim to have family in the Armed Forces; just pitch my arguments/counter-points to them. If you are able to quote their views (without identifying them) I'll even be able to gauge at what level/rank they are (if at all in the Armed Forces) and even whether they have achieved Staff or Higher Command training and qualifications.
They might even be able to set you straight about why they cannot operate in that ops on 'Legal Grounds' apart from Strategic and Tactical considerations.
Hint: AFPSA cannot be promulgated there.

 

[sancho]

I believe 22 were for the IAF, and 39 for the army . but perhaps @sancho can help?

The 22 are the one IAF had requested to replace the 2 x MI 35 squads, but IA which already is operating the Mi 35s, wants the replacement now too and have the requirement for a 3rd squadron, so up to 39 in total.
The question is only, will MoD still give IAF 22 x Apaches just because it was their competition, but although they wouldn't have a requirement for combat helicopters anymore, when IA is providing fire support with Rudra, LCH and maybe Apaches on their own. Antony has routed for IA, but lets see what the new DM will say.

 

[Tshering22]

Again there is only a great deal of Emotionalism visible in that post and very little Strategic or Tactical Reasoning.
Which gets clearly demonstrated especially in the underlined part of post.

That battle cannot be fought with Tanks and APC at all . That terrain/topography is unsuitable for Armored Vehicles like Tanks and APC. They will be unable to move in most parts and in some cases will be reduced to becoming immobile 'sitting ducks'.
Just read (since its the month of June---the anniversary of Normandie) about how even the thick 'hedge-row' bocage country nearly defeated Tanks. Even Gunships of any kind are not even the best weapons in this kind of combat. The best method is small groups of Men on the ground moving on foot, swiftly and stealthily away from the 'beaten tracks'. No Vehicle can (or should) move there unless its path/track is confirmed clear of IEDs. Yo have not apparently reading any of the successful attacks carried out on the Police Parties and why the Naxals were successful in each of them..........simply because they were foolish enough to try tactics similar to what you advocate, when they should have known better.

These small highly mobile (infantry-equivalent) forces will need to operate on the basis of intelligence, which is where UAVs can be useful. Apart from that there is little role for aircraft either fixed wing or rotorcraft. Actually "Humint" will be critical much more than the "Elint" that UAVs can provide.

Since you claim to have family in the Armed Forces; just pitch my arguments/counter-points to them. If you are able to quote their views (without identifying them) I'll even be able to gauge at what level/rank they are (if at all in the Armed Forces) and even whether they have achieved Staff or Higher Command training and qualifications.
They might even be able to set you straight about why they cannot operate in that ops on 'Legal Grounds' apart from Strategic and Tactical considerations.
Hint: AFPSA cannot be promulgated there.

Oh, I see where is the confusion. I was talking about tanks and APCs metaphorically.

But do you agree that things are getting worse and should gunships be used to flush out these terrorists?

Because brute air power is what is needed to ensnare and kill these scum.

 

[sancho]

Besides, both the IAF and IA operating these birds is a ridiculous duplication of capability. I really hope it's a total of 39, all eventually going to the army. (Although initially 22 might go to the IAF.)

That's the point! The main use of propper combat helicopters are independent operations against enemy armored vehicles or ground troops. The minute IA can provide this on their own, IAF simply has nothing left that they would need such costly Apaches for. Escort roles can easily be done by LCH or even Rudra and that even in high altitudes, since that's what they were designed and developed for. It simply makes no sense anymore to remain with combat helicopters in IAF anymore, imo they should even divert all Mi 17s to IA as well, as their main use is also only related to direct support of ground troops, be it in transporting them, their cargo or weapons. Plain logic tells us, that it then is more useful to operate the helicopters alongside the same ground forces and not request them all the time they would be needed. IAF basically needs only light uttility, the heavy lift as well as the VIP helicopters in their prime roles. The first to support their own operations, the heavy lift since it's just an extention of their transport role, be it for the military, road constructions with civilians or ISRO, just as the VIP helicopter role. Lets see if the new government will take a "decisiveness" to end this and make operations of IA more effective.

 

[amitkriit]

Oh, I see where is the confusion. I was talking about tanks and APCs metaphorically.

But do you agree that things are getting worse and should gunships be used to flush out these terrorists?

Because brute air power is what is needed to ensnare and kill these scum.

UAVs are already doing a very effective job. Use of attack helicopters in anti-naxal operations is not such a bad idea provided we have accurate and actionable intelligence. Use of airborne assets will also help in evacuation and in assisting our troops in case of surprise attacks.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Oh, I see where is the confusion. I was talking about tanks and APCs metaphorically.

But do you agree that things are getting worse and should gunships be used to flush out these terrorists?

Because brute air power is what is needed to ensnare and kill these scum.

No, Air-Power (especially of the Brute kind) is again highly unsuited for these ops.
It will need intelligent and persistent operations by numerous small groups of "foot-sloggers".
TINA......There Is No Alternative to this method as the primary means of action.
Just as there is ABSOLUTELY NO ESCAPE from providing Governance in the affected areas; which is the root cause for the deep disaffection prevailing.

In the meanwhile; please take time to ruminate on all the other points that I have made earlier. There is barely any scope for any "Cowboy Actions". Resorting to them will be disastrous.

UAVs are already doing a very effective job. Use of attack helicopters in anti-naxal operations is not such a bad idea provided we have accurate and actionable intelligence. Use of airborne assets will also help in evacuation and in assisting our troops in case of surprise attacks.

Attack Helos cannot look through thick vegetation or forest cover. Conversely anybody well armed with HMGs or equivalent or (god forbid) MANPADS and easily camouflaged in the vegetation/topography will be able to swiftly alter the "balance of power".
Think about it!