India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off:

[Dillinger]

None of these are viable options

- The LCA is coming regardless and they will be ramping up production to 16 LCA a year within the next two years but they are not capable enough to be substitutes for the Rafale.
-The IAF is not going to add yet ANOTHER fighter type to its fleet, it is trying to simplify logistics not complicate them
- They don't want the MiG-35, it failed to meet their technical specifications.

Add the Su-35 to the list and even the 34 (for the more crazy fanboys).

 

[Abingdonboy]

Add the Su-35 to the list and even the 34 (for the more crazy fanboys).

Lol or maybe quicker induction of the PAK-FA (despite the fact Russia is pushing off their own induction of this plane)

 

[Dillinger]

IF this is the long term plan then it makes sense because India effectively gets the MMRCA deal without needing to untangle an MMRCA mess BUT 60 fighters off the shelf and that alone is an almost meaningless deal for India.

Not particularly, 60 Rafales operating alongside 50+ upgraded Mirages will still constitute a potent force in the medium weight segment. But, it will also mean that the AMCA will have to be pursued with renewed vigor and actual focus (as opposed to our lackluster performance in the past and laughably hilarious decision making structure).

 

[SipahSalar]

60 Rafales destroyed even before take off.

BTW forget lowering the cost. The fewer jets India buys, the more they will cost per plane.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Not particularly, 60 Rafales operating alongside 50+ upgraded Mirages will still constitute a potent force in the medium weight segment. But, it will also mean that the AMCA will have to be pursued with renewed vigor and actual focus (as opposed to our lackluster performance in the past and laughably hilarious decision making structure).

I'm still trying to digest this but the more I think about it the more I think the 60 would only be the first order and would be procured for purely operational reasons i.e. the IAF's depleting Sqn strength and that another order for Rafales built in India would come later bringing about all the industrial benefits the MMRCA was always meant to bring. 60 Rafales off the shelf simply makes no sense and I don't think this is the sum total of what would be agreed upon merely step one in untangling the MMRCA mess.


I think it is worth pointing out what Dassualt offered India a few years back:


Dassault Reiterates Pitch To IAF For 40 Fast-Track Rafales

LIVEFIST: Dassault Reiterates Pitch To IAF For 40 Fast-Track Rafales


I think what you wrote @Dillinger is not too far away from what I just said.

 

[Dillinger]

Lol or maybe quicker induction of the PAK-FA (despite the fact Russia is pushing off their own induction of this plane)

A quicker induction of the PAK-FA is also unlikely. As it is designed at the moment, the deal is going to be a REAL headache (a BIGGER headache than the Rafale deal). The joint development plan is all but lying still-born, refusing to get off the tarmac. Not a single Indian pilot has taken the plane through its paces (just because its a 5th gen plane doesn't mean it's going to bypass the required mechanisms of meeting IAF requirements).

Of course, any ideas about inducting the Su-35 or the EF (or the Mig-35, shudder) are laughable.

 

[Abingdonboy]

60 Rafales destroyed even before take off.

BTW forget lowering the cost. The fewer jets India buys, the more they will cost per plane.

This would only hold true if these 60 were meant to be built in India. Given they are all going to be built in France who already have an open production line I don't see why the costs would increase in fact 60 Rafales is far more Rafales than were ever going to be built in France as per the MMRCA and Dassualt would actually have to ramp up production in all likelihood.

 

[Dillinger]

I'm still trying to digest this but the more I think about it the more I think the 60 would only be the first order and would be procured for purely operational reasons i.e. the IAF's depleting Sqn strength and that another order for Rafales built in India would come later bringing about all the industrial benefits the MMRCA was always meant to bring. 60 Rafales off the shelf simply makes no sense and I don't think this is the sum total of what would be agreed upon merely step one in untangling the MMRCA mess.


I think it is worth pointing out what Dassualt offered India a few years back:


Dassault Reiterates Pitch To IAF For 40 Fast-Track Rafales

LIVEFIST: Dassault Reiterates Pitch To IAF For 40 Fast-Track Rafales


I think what you wrote @Dillinger is not too far away from what I just said.

Those industrial benefits will only come when the contentious points in the original contract are ironed out. 60 or 200, whatever be the number of planes we supposedly will build in country, it will only happen once issues relating to price and quality assurance are fixed, and that does not seem to be in sight.

 

[Abingdonboy]

A quicker induction of the PAK-FA is also unlikely. As it is designed at the moment, the deal is going to be a REAL headache (a BIGGER headache than the Rafale deal). The joint development plan is all but lying still-born, refusing to get off the tarmac. Not a single Indian pilot has taken the plane through its paces (just because its a 5th gen plane doesn't mean it's going to bypass the required mechanisms of meeting IAF requirements).

Of course, any ideas about inducting the Su-35 or the EF (or the Mig-35, shudder) are laughable.

I agree entirely the FGFA is a disaster but no one is reporting this just yet. If you thought the MMRCA/Rafale was unbearable you haven't seen anything yet. Russia is being squeezed by sanctions who will (and are) pass on this squeeze onto India by way of demanding extra "development costs", the FGFA's design STILL isn't frozen, no development contract has been agreed and the work share is STILL unclear.

The headache hasn't even begun yet....

Those industrial benefits will only come when the contentious points in the original contract are ironed out. 60 or 200, whatever be the number of planes we supposedly will build in country, it will only happen once issues relating to price and quality assurance are fixed, and that does not seem to be in sight.

Indeed but all the noises seem to imply things are going in the right direction on that front and this off the shelf purchase would buy the IAF breathing room to properly address all such issues on that front.

 

[axisofevil]

Breaking news my @$$~!


Note this part and never forget it. Put it on repeat for generations to come....


The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solutio

 

[Abingdonboy]

Breaking news my @$$~!


Note this part and never forget it. Put it on repeat for generations to come....


The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solutio

Let's wait and see if this news is correct but IF it is then chalk another failure up to Antony, yet more pilots he has got killed.

 

[Luca1]

60 Rafales destroyed even before take off.

BTW forget lowering the cost. The fewer jets India buys, the more they will cost per plane.

It will be cheaper as there is no TOT or facility set up.

 

[Dillinger]

I agree entirely the FGFA is a disaster but no one is reporting this just yet. If you thought the MMRCA/Rafale was unbearable you haven't seen anything yet. Russia is being squeezed by sanctions who will (and are) pass on this squeeze onto India by way of demanding extra "development costs", the FGFA's design STILL isn't frozen, no development contract has been agreed and the work share is STILL unclear.

The headache hasn't even begun yet....


Indeed but all the noises seem to imply things are going in the right direction on that front and this off the shelf purchase would buy the IAF breathing room to properly address all such issues on that front.

There will be no solution to the quality assurance issue. Dassault is simply going to refuse, they will rightly argue that they cannot assure or ensure that all QC/QR will be met through the life of the production line. They would have to literally check the components going on every single jet being built in country to be able to take such a responsibility in good faith, and that is not feasible. Quality assurance does not mean that they pass on the certification process to HAL and then sit back and still assume the ultimate liability.

As to the FGFA/PAK-FA, the lesser said the better. GOI and the IAF had best pray to every god in the cosmos that the AMCA actually succeeds.

 

[axisofevil]

Let's wait and see if this news is correct but IF it is then chalk another failure up to Antony, yet more pilots he has got killed.

I agree but blaming Anthony is not correct either. Sonia and Rahul have been pulling the strings when NDA was in power. They are behind every decision made in govt when Congress was in power. I mean their family.

 

[Luca1]

There will be no solution to the quality assurance issue. Dassault is simply going to refuse, they will rightly argue that they cannot assure or ensure that all QC/QR will be met through the life of the production line. They would have to literally check the components going on every single jet being built in country to be able to take such a responsibility in good faith, and that is not feasible. Quality assurance does not mean that they pass on the certification process to HAL and then sit back and still assume the ultimate liability.

As to the FGFA/PAK-FA, the lesser said the better. GOI and the IAF had best pray to every god in the cosmos that the AMCA actually succeeds.

If it's all build in their plant, they will guarantee the quality.