India to buy 4 E-2D Advanced Hawkeye for INS Vishal

[knight11]

Moreover if we choose us AEW, the data link between mig29k,LCA & our future AMCA will definitely gives headache.

So why India choosed P8i platform. Actually India is not the member of NATO, so there is no need to use data link 16, instead india have its own solution aka ODL - Operational Data Link for secrecy and indigenous algorithm so such devices will not be in the packages. As far as the Data link - 16 is concerned than its just the protocol and the algorithm and easily could be interlinked using the convertor solution which convert datalink16 to ODL and vice versa .

First of all IN plan includes its own Naval Battle Management and network based on the Indigenous Satellites and Grid, that's why Aegis which was proposed by US was denied. Second Hawkeye is much needed due to the change of the requirement of the IN who want to now evolve into true Blue Navy, and Hawkeye in the USN are most safe bet for the ASR (Anti Submariene and Survellance) requirement for the Battle group when away from our sea shores because US have the best tech. and experience in that field and for the carrier operation there is no other option.

But big question is EMAL for IOC-2

1. Rafale -M OK, Nuclear Propulsion (HEU/LEU) OK guess India some how developed such PWR, but India have to put something big on the table for the EMAL tech.

I hope Brazilians can modify their EMB aircraft, if not go for much larger shore based IAI phalcon.

Negative

wats the point in buying US weapons , when they arm pakistan with f16's?

Because it is very safe bet, And for the arming Pakistan, because some politicians feels that if they will not arm Pakistan or left over to be overrun by the Jihadi and non state fractions, the nukes might gets into the wrong hand. In Pakistan F-16 is the symbol of feeling safe to the general public as political propaganda you can say but when IAF convey its consern over 18 F-16 than US told India over the F16 supply that those small number won't destabilize the IAF superiority, and India would gain superiority in few days, but for Pakistan it would act as the medicine for the Political govt. For sake of you just check why didn't US gave AIM-120C-5 and not AIM 120C-7, and why they didn't gave Pakistan AIM-9x , And why US didn't gave Pakistan AESA MMR along with the 18 F-16 block-52 and why they didn't gave pakistan programable DRFM jammers.

 

[$@rJen]

Why not its 2016 only,can't EMB come up with a carrier certified aircraft by 2030… secondly why not a shorebased AWACS a viable option?IN won't sent their CBG to Atlantic or south China sea. Any shore based AWACS as big and capable as IAI phalcon can give enough coverage for you cbgs for hours,only disadvantage I am seeing is such system not able to controll directly by carriers captain hence it needs better coordination between land &cbgs.

Bro, the Embraer is much bigger aircraft than E-2D atleast 10M more length. who knows IN already said they would send its warships to protect its interests in SCS... Lets not rule out anything, even if we're sending a carrier off the coast of Mauritius or Seychelles or the south african countries coast a carrier based AEW is much better than shore based ones.

 

[sudhir007]

INS vishal is minimum a decade away from reality, there is enough time to devolop a carrier based AEW platform by our own(with brazilian collaboration for airframe). That will be the logical option than going behind a back stabbing supplier like US.

Too expensive to built if the requirements is less then 10

 

[kaykay]

Guys all these E-2D, Rafale-M, F-35s etc along with Ins Vishaal are a pipe dream yet.....wake me up when september ends. lol

 

[Abingdonboy]

INS vishal is minimum a decade away from reality, there is enough time to devolop a carrier based AEW platform by our own(with brazilian collaboration for airframe). That will be the logical option than going behind a back stabbing supplier like US.

Which aircraft have you in mind? I can't see many viable candidates, it isn't quite as simple as you are making out my friend. Even the French (giants in the aviation industry) have bought E-2Cs.

Moreover if we choose us AEW, the data link between mig29k,LCA & our future AMCA will definitely gives headache.

Why would they hoose US data links? Has this been an issue with any Amerucan product bought by the Indian Mil thus far? India always puts its own IFF, data links and comms gear into any assets it procures- from wherever that may be. A non issue.

wats the point in buying US weapons , when they arm pakistan with f16's?

Who else has EMALS tech and advanced carrier based fixed wing AWACS?

Along with 50 F-35?

Whoa!!! That's a great news...Though with E-2D, expect 36-40 F-35C for Ins Vishaal too.

The more I see, the more I doubt the F-35C coming to the IN.

1) There would be absolutely zero industrial benefits for India- none (and linked to this is how little control the IN/India would have in modifying the F-35 to their requirements- all US products are highly restricted in this way).
2) The IN would have to have an entirely seperate supply chain for their fighters (if they go for the Rafale-M this wouldn't be the case and isn't the case with their MiG-29Ks thus far).
3) In order to get the F-36Cs India would have to sign the CISMOA, LSA, BECA and any other end-user agreements the US chooses to impose.


The F-35C isn't even that impressive of a product, it is a flawed and highly comprimised machine that relies on one "party trick" alone- VLO, in every other area it is distinctly below par with existing aircraft. In a close in fight the Su-30, Rafale, EFT etc would all eat it alive.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Guys all these E-2D, Rafale-M, F-35s etc along with Ins Vishaal are a pipe dream yet.....wake me up when september ends. lol

Khud alarm laga le.

 

[#hydra#]

Bro, the Embraer is much bigger aircraft than E-2D atleast 10M more length. who knows IN already said they would send its warships to protect its interests in SCS... Lets not rule out anything, even if we're sending a carrier off the coast of Mauritius or Seychelles or the south african countries coast a carrier based AEW is much better than shore based ones.

I saw some videos of c130 landing on a flat top carrier so landing of EMB won't be a problem, only it requires someone modifications like folded wing,strengthening of under carriage etc.
I think il76 have enough endurance to give coverage any CBG patrolling Mauritius nd all,regarding south China sea I doubt about our leadership have that much courage to do so. If they have means we have to sent our AWACS to Andaman nicobar or to Vietnam for landing and take off.

Bro there are hell lot of fancy & high-tech gadgets will be available in market,but we have to choose those things Wisely without bending our head to the suppliers.

 

[$@rJen]

I saw some videos of c130 landing on a flat top carrier so landing of EMB won't be a problem, only it requires someone modifications like folded wing,strengthening of under carriage etc.

Bro,it was way back in 60s when US was testing them for a emergency resupply not to host them. C-130 can land and take off in a small strip while EMP can't and Host a such long flight would take up unnecessary space. you can fold the wing but whats up with the Tail??? EMBs wing is smaller than E2 i think but the length is too much.

I think il76 have enough endurance to give coverage any CBG patrolling Mauritius nd all,regarding south China sea I doubt about our leadership have that much courage to do so. If they have means we have to sent our AWACS to Andaman nicobar or to Vietnam for landing and take off.

in a war scenario Carrier would need 24/7 Coverage i don't think so any land based Awac could give them while Carrier is long away from home.. don't know only the time would say... once we've set our goals of inducting all those ships we're talking about, i wouldn't rule out our ships being deployed near VietNam to safeguard our interests in that region

Bro there are hell lot of fancy & high-tech gadgets will be available in market,but we have to choose those things Wisely without bending our head to the suppliers.

dude i wish there are but don't know if there's any.. Russians don't have any, French or Germany don't have them too.. only other option is Russian heli AEW which we're already using. or India and Russia should partner and co-develope

 

[Abingdonboy]

I saw some videos of c130 landing on a flat top carrier so landing of EMB won't be a problem, only it requires someone modifications like folded wing,strengthening of under carriage etc.

The C-130 is not a practical solutuon at all. It just about stopped but that was a test of COD (carrier on board delivery) not AEW, there is no way that giant could be housed on a carrier 24/7.

I think il76 have enough endurance to give coverage any CBG patrolling Mauritius nd all,regarding south China sea I doubt about our leadership have that much courage to do so. If they have means we have to sent our AWACS to Andaman nicobar or to Vietnam for landing and take off.

Carriers need to have their own integral AEW assets, relying on shore based AWACS to provide cover is absurd and totally unworkable for numerous reasons. The E-2D is the best option- by far, there's not point in opposing it just for the sake of it, unless there is a credible alternative that I am failing to see.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

My initial post where i said F35 is a dinosaur is not meant to be making fun of F35 rather bcz i dont feel its a right choice in any manner.. When i said Dinasaur (wrt to white elephant) i meant to say not only its unnecessarily huge cost, it lacks truly the cutting edge tech as most folks believe it has..
A simple comparison by Auspower by Dr Carlo Kopp

and for the people, something from proprietary side of Saab.. Of course Saab overestimates its own capabilities.. But keep a look out to understand few things in the graph

(credit to original poster in Keypub)

Now supercruise itself is a wrong representation by most fighters including F35s and Gripen NG prototypes. Again credit to the original poster who made me look at aerodynamics chapter again and again.. and this point below is absolutely correct.

The definition of supercruise is "sustained supersonic flight on dry thrust", which means the airflow has to be supersonic over the entire vehicle (which generally means greater than mach 1.1-1.2) and to sustain it, the aircraft has to be clear the massive rise in wave drag at transonic speeds.

Sadly, F35 fails by Supercruise definition and Dr Carlo Kopp is correct in giving a negative mark in that category...


++

Coming back to this original picture i want to point few more things here

If you look at Rafale vs F18 vs EF what you observe is that Rafale has better operational capability to its competitor but interms of LCC EF is marginally cheaper.. Of course EF is not as upgraded as Rafale F3.. which may change the cost factor later with different configs..

So all people who are talking about F18s line in India operationally its going to be far costly then Rafales..

If you compare Rafale vs F35, yes F35 capability is pitted higher but look at the wide gap in LCC.. You think IN would like this "dinosaur".. When we keep hearing the jargon of having efficiency look at the whole produc.. high cost upfront and high cost back also..

Compare Rafale with Su35, see how operational capabilities again rafale is marginally better and LCC cost a huge advantage in Rafales favour..Look directly below Su35, thats Su27. So Su MKI comes in between those 2 in terms of capabilities and is LCC wise costly..

So all folks talking about MKI being solution to everything can see its Saab who has done this analysis and is proprietary..

Rafale vs PAKFA a huge leap in capability and higher LCC..Thats why IAF will have a limited fleet but try higher operational availability..

Most folks forget 5th gen stealth coating needs means lot of downtime and essentially huge operational cost and is basically more of hangar queen...

+++
My post here is trying to break pre conceived notions about multiple things..

1. Firstly 5th Gen huge number fleet is non sustainable (upfront cost and LCC cost)
2. Performance is not as rosy as people think
3. Capability gap does not mean all forces can have huge number of 5th gen jet
4. Rafale and EF were very good choices in MMRCA
5. Rafale ultimately for IAF and IN is a better choice from capability vs LCC trade off
6. The Russian fighters are good but LCC cost this proprietary pic is the first and most concrete pictureproof i have seen.. read many places but i at least like this assessment... bcz it shows Gripen NG Better (which i doubt) but for that it definitely plots others pretty much accurately

@Taygibay @Vauban @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK @nair @Abingdonboy @anant_s @cerberus

 

[SrNair]

IN will not agree for F35s.. That I can assure you from my own sources..

It's Rafale M, followed by AMCA naval..

In case we go for F35, with limited 100 jets we are going to have biggest white elephants in our whole military history...

If ppl believe Rafale is a elephant thn what's F35? Dinosaurs?

Completely agree with you .
IN wont forget 1971 .and will never trust US .

 

[Fenrir]

Since you're all so concerned about the US, put those Russian-Indian relations to good use and develop a Yak-44E for the modern age.

 

[anant_s]

Since you're all so concerned about the US, put those Russian-Indian relations to good use and develop a Yak-44E for the modern age.

ma'am,
throughout Cold War Soviet Union had this doctrine of not fielding ACs and rather have long range missile carrier planes and subs as deterrent against US CBGs.
In todays world, how do you foresee Russia changing those tactics in near future, especially when we see it increasingly at loggerheads with NATO.

 

[Taygibay]

Your excellent post is a tad off-topic, PariK my friend!

Nonetheless, here is what you need to explain milavia gens to the general public :
Jet fighter generations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ah! If only people knew how to use a search engine in relation to quality over quantity.

And add this to your small expose that the graph being a SAAB sales pitch prop,
it has no reason to favour any of the candidates but their own. But using it, one
can understand that they gave the Gripen NG the best marks they could and some
with frosting and pro lighting to showcase it, i.e. I wouldn't put NG that close to some
... especially the group!
Rafale, EF and F-18 are located on a sweet spot. Why is their LCC double that of
the NG? Because they have twice as many engines, making them heavier, that simple!
They also carry a nice amount of extra payload to be honest and that is forgotten
in putting the NG on par unless it has abilities over those of this trio, which is doubtful.

Yet, with all this, your analysis stands and everyone can do extra homework by plotting
timelines by family. For example, the J-shaped curve from MiG-29/Su 27/Mig-35/PAK-FA.
Or the flattening one from F-18 to F-35 to F-22 which may show a spike in a few years
as the middle element may be higher than planned for, as shown from present JPO reports.
ETC.


Salud bro, Tay.

 

[surya kiran]

Since you're all so concerned about the US, put those Russian-Indian relations to good use and develop a Yak-44E for the modern age.

The India AEW. 2 handed over to the IAF. The next version of the same is under development.