India slams Israeli attack on Gaza aid flotilla

[T-Rex]

The Great humanitarian crisis of immense proportion in Gaza & those Mass-Starving, sick human beings of Gaza due to blockade by Evil Joos.

For more pictures of humanitarian crisis of immense proportion in Gaza
http://www.paltoday.com/arabic/News-64161.html

These photos belong to the period before the blockade or perhaps they are photos taken in Dubai! Now, that is quite possible, isn't it? Just showing some photos mean nothing, to prove your point you have to do something you simply cannot do because the facts are against what you want to prove!

 

[Bang Galore]

What are the UNSC resolutions on Uighur Statehood or Status, as in the case of Palestine and J&K?

Domestic issues and inter-ethnic/communal tensions are internal issues wouldn't you say?

Interesting logic. Unless the U.N passes a resolution, people don't have a right to expect your empathy. Real convenient. Especially while talking about China which using its veto power can prevent any resolution to that effect.

BTW isn't it interesting that you don't much care for the U.N. when it comes to Hafeez Saeed & the JuD but it becomes the sole barometer when deciding which cause is just from a legal perspective? I would have thought that sanctions on a terrorist/terrorist organisation/s are justifiable both from a moral & legal viewpoint thereby meeting your criteria..

 

[humblehobbes]

Bang galore, I think you are the Defense lawyer for India as opposed to AM for Pakistan Great going you guys

 

[su-47]

@Su-47,

Religion has to be dragged here because the Indian author of this Topic is so obviously Muslim--Muslims have the strongest reaction against the Raid--and that a large number of Indian bloggers, perhaps the majority, are supportive of Israel's actions. Logically, it is safe to say that most Indian bloggers are Hindus and that's probably the main reason--given India-Pak rivalry--they are supportive of Israel. Contrast it to the fact that WORLDWIDE--whether atheist Chinese or Buddhist Koreans or Christian English--there is widespread condemnation of Israeli Raid.
Indians are standing out in support of Israel and, dare I say, Indian Hindus even more so. An honest poll will settle this.

I think you are being too presumptuous here. Bloggers dont usually reveal their religion. so they could be muslim, christian or sikh as well. even if we exclude muslims from the argument according to your logic, the bloggers could still be sikh, christian or aetheist, so pulling the religion card is not very valid.

Now, I know you have been an early critic of the Israeli attack. Kudos for that. I also know that not only in this blog--I won't even bother with Bharat-Rakshak--but also in the Comments part of 'Times of India' quite a few people were supportive of Israel: Crush the Muslims!

This Topic, again, is an attempt at damage control. Indian bloggers reflect the true Indian official feeling and mindset, IMHO. Only some 'practical' considerations are preventing the official India from speaking their honest mind.

PS. Oh, your statement about 'patriotic' Indians supporting Israel because of weapons from Israel and how the ordinary Indians are in 'shock' by Israeli action does not make sense, if you really think about. Truth be told: The average Indian may be thinking like a human being while the blogging (the real policy mindset) is having some Freudian Slips.

India's affiliation with Israel is not based on religion, but on mutual interest, much like Pakistan's alliance with China. Would u call that alliance anti-Hindu? no. just like that, Indo-Israeli relations are also not anti-muslim. if it was, India would not enjoy the ties it has with the Islamic world.

And as for the bloggers, u have to realise that they will have a soft-corner for Israel, just like Pakistanis have for China. hell, so many Pakistanis are proud of Chinese achievements! And if someone criticises China on this forum, Pakistanis rush to their defence, even if the criticism is valid. So similar reaction can be expected of Indians when Israel is concerned. It is not being anti-muslim (though i cant deny there are some nut-jobs who are). It is being pro-Israel.

As to Pakistan, well, Pakistan is cash-strapped, too dependent. But if push comes to shove, Pakistanis are going to join the Turks against Israel. I don't think the same can be said about India.

Even at the peak of its growth during Musharaf regime, pakistan was not a major contributor of aid to Palestine (i am not aware of any Pak contribution, correct me if i am wrong). And saying pak will be with Turkey is, frankly, unrealistic. Unless Pakistan decided to use Ballistic missiles to attack Israel (almost nil chance) Pak doesnt have the capacity to hit Israel in any way.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Interesting logic. Unless the U.N passes a resolution, people don't have a right to expect your empathy. Real convenient. Especially while talking about China which using its veto power can prevent any resolution to that effect.

Strawman - I never said people don't have a right to expect ones empathy without UN resolutions, that is your construct. There is a thin line between 'empathy' for people caught up in internal communal dynamics and support for greater destabilization/secessionist movement, a pretext India used to great advantage in East Pakistan after all. In a way setting in play the events it would later use to justify its intervention before those events took place.

States risk crossing that line with declarations of 'empathy' with the internal issues of another nation, especially issues that have 'secessionist attributes'.

BTW isn't it interesting that you don't much care for the U.N. when it comes to Hafeez Saeed & the JuD but it becomes the sole barometer when deciding which cause is just from a legal perspective?

Don't attribute incorrect positions to me please - I am all for Pakistan implementing the UN sanctions on HS (which IMO it has, since nothing in the sanctions calls for arrest, restrictions on speech or intra-country movement). What I have questioned is the process through which the UNSC designates entities as 'terrorist' and imposes sanctions on them, a process that does not provide the accused party with any voice or ability to defend itself.

Such a process was obviously not the case with the UNSC resolutions in J&K and Palestine, in which all parties to the dispute had their voices heard and presented their case.

I would have thought that sanctions on a terrorist/terrorist organisation/s are justifiable both from a moral & legal viewpoint thereby meeting your criteria..

See above, and next time don't attribute false positions to me please.

 

[prototype]

Interesting logic. Unless the U.N passes a resolution, people don't have a right to expect your empathy. Real convenient. Especially while talking about China which using its veto power can prevent any resolution to that effect.

BTW isn't it interesting that you don't much care for the U.N. when it comes to Hafeez Saeed & the JuD but it becomes the sole barometer when deciding which cause is just from a legal perspective? I would have thought that sanctions on a terrorist/terrorist organisation/s are justifiable both from a moral & legal viewpoint thereby meeting your criteria..

a nice and simple logic,waiting for the pakistani defense lawyer

 

[EjazR]

UN resolutions on Palestine clearly state for an independent Palestinian state around the 1967 borders.

the J&K UNSC resolutions call for joining only either India or Pakistan, not independence as Pakistan lobbied to remove that option.

So even speaking with respect to UNSC http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/52111-kashmir-not-palestine-india-not-israel.html

 

[EjazR]

China's voice toward this incident is loud and clear from 31th May till now, and it is good that some country finially join the civilized world almost 10 days after the attack although some of it's citizens are still supporting the killers.

by the way, what are you expecting China to do? repeating their condemnation again or criticing on some country's slow action?

India condemned the action within a few hours
The Hindu : News : India condemns Israeli attack
and again at the CICA summit.

Don't take it personally, but I was just trying to highlight the hypocrisy of some members with regard to GoI policy vis a vis China where even not protesting "loudly enough" is percieved as a PR exercise or a support to attacks on the Flotilla.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

By that measure wouldn't Pakistan be considered a state sponsor of terror, since the LeT/JuD is banned yet most (even folks here) Pakistanis openly support using proxies against India in Kashmir and otherwise?

Proxies are not 'terrorists' - once the US and India declare themselves 'State sponsors of terrorism' through their use of proxies in Latin America, Asia, East Pakistan, Sri Lanka etc. then we can discuss labeling Pakistan the same.

Secondly, attitudes and opinions amongst the masses would not result in the State being labeled anything, only actions by the State would do so, and here the point being made was about Indian attitudes as seen on the various platforms mentioned.

Third, regardless of what Pakistanis may say on this forum, there is far stronger evidence regarding Pakistani attitudes on terrorism and attacks on civilians in the polling data over several years by multiple credible international polling organizations. So your attempted canard is debunked right there, which you would have known had you read my earlier post a little more carefully and noted the reference to polling data establishing Pakistani attitudes towards terrorism and attacks on civilians, and the lack of such data in support of your contentions about the attitudes of the 'silent majority of Indians'.

You're entitled to your opinion AM but you can't draw any statistically significant conclusions off of blogs/websites. period.

Again, absent any other data/evidence, that is the only evidence, and that evidence, consistently over several years, paints only one rather negative picture of Indian attitudes on certain issues.

Haven't spent too much time on that thread, can you point me to this data you speak of?

Its in the Pakistan's War section - I gave you the title, you can use the search feature to find it.

Since you're the one making assumptions the onus of gathering the 'evidence' is on you.

And I have gathered evidence - the rather bigoted and hateful opinions of tens of thousands of Indians, on certain issues, on mainstream Indian news sites, blogs, fora, Western News sites, blogs and fora, all paint a negative picture about Indian attitudes. I am completely open to changing my mind if you do present evidence contradicting that position.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

UN resolutions on Palestine clearly state for an independent Palestinian state around the 1967 borders.

the J&K UNSC resolutions call for joining only either India or Pakistan, not independence as Pakistan lobbied to remove that option.

So even speaking with respect to UNSC http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/52111-kashmir-not-palestine-india-not-israel.html

No, but the resolutions internationalize the issue and were issued with the consent of all parties to the dispute (India and Pakistan in the case of the J&K UNSC resolutions), which makes taking a position on the issue for the international community (even if it is a position of supporting bilateral talks between India and Pakistan to resolve the dispute) far more acceptable than commenting on purely internal issues such as the Uighur, Maoist, Baluch or Khalistani issues.

 

[prototype]

Proxies are not 'terrorists' - once the US and India declare themselves 'State sponsors of terrorism' through their use of proxies in Latin America, Asia, East Pakistan, Sri Lanka etc. then we can discuss labeling Pakistan the same.

thats a nice way of defending not onlt LeT and JuD but also Hamas and Hizbollah,between the bla and ttp also deserve the same

Secondly, attitudes and opinions amongst the masses would not result in the State being labeled anything, only actions by the State would do so, and here the point being made was about Indian attitudes as seen on the various platforms mentioned.

then by ur criteria neither did israel nor jews need to called as terrorist
as that is only an attitude among the muslim masses

Third, regardless of what Pakistanis may say on this forum, there is far stronger evidence regarding Pakistani attitudes on terrorism and attacks on civilians in the polling data over several years by multiple credible international polling organizations. So your attempted canard is debunked right there, which you would have known had you read my earlier post a little more carefully and noted the reference to polling data establishing Pakistani attitudes towards terrorism and attacks on civilians, and the lack of such data in support of your contentions about the attitudes of the 'silent majority of Indians'.
.

regarding how some pakistanis say on this forum,it generally provide a picture of menality,how much they enjoy the butchering happening from mumbai to delhi

i still remember a pakistani member here openly advocating bombing and attacks in and around every indian city using their terrorist(sorry proxies) only to make india remember with whom they r messing

 

[Bang Galore]

Strawman - I never said people don't have a right to expect ones empathy without UN resolutions, that is your construct. There is a thin line between 'empathy' for people caught up in internal communal dynamics and support for greater destabilization/secessionist movement, a pretext India used to great advantage in East Pakistan after all. In a way setting in play the events it would later use to justify its intervention before those events took place.

States risk crossing that line with declarations of 'empathy' with the internal issues of another nation, especially issues that have 'secessionist attributes'.

On a thread which stated the official position of the government of India(i.e. the Indian State), you chose to join a fellow member in making it about Indians in general.

Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM
In the absence of data illustrating the viewpoints of this 'silent majority' you claim exists (such as credible polling date from credible organizations etc.) one can only draw conclusions based on data and evidence that exists (such as the opinions and views presented on Indian blogs, fora, newspapers etc.) and those views suggest an overwhelming majority of Indians support certain positions and 'attitudes', as mentioned by Meengla.

Hobbes replied in the same vein.

^^ look! I dont want to bring anything off topic, but there was hardly a voice from Pakistan when the Chinese had Muslim Uighur Issue. India atleast has the guts to open her mouth about this, inspite of military co-operation with Israel. I wonder if i have to expand more on this.

He was not talking about the Pakistani state, just the same as you. He was asking why Pakistanis(not the state of Pakistan) did not concern themselves about the Uighurs?

Your reply was this.

What are the UNSC resolutions on Uighur Statehood or Status, as in the case of Palestine and J&K?

Domestic issues and inter-ethnic/communal tensions are internal issues wouldn't you say?

Hence my reply.

Where & when did this become an issue of positions taken by states? You cannot be selective in your interpretations, choosing to refer to "ordinary people" when it suits your argument and making reference to "states" when that better suits you.

 

[KS]

After all the stupid Indian govt had to open its mouth in condeming Israel.

instead they should have kept quiet just like China and should have worked behind the scenes in helping the Palestinians.

Israel is one of India's few true friends and GOI issuing a statement like this.

 

[Bang Galore]

Proxies are not 'terrorists' - once the US and India declare themselves 'State sponsors of terrorism' through their use of proxies in Latin America, Asia, East Pakistan, Sri Lanka etc. then we can discuss labeling Pakistan the same.

Don't confuse the ability to influence the people in another country ( the best example of a proxy would have been the pre 2001Taliban) with your own countrymen running amok in someone else's country. That would be terrorism without even a fig leaf of an excuse.

And I have gathered evidence - the rather bigoted and hateful opinions of tens of thousands of Indians, on certain issues, on mainstream Indian news sites, blogs, fora, Western News sites, blogs and fora, all paint a negative picture about Indian attitudes. I am completely open to changing my mind if you do present evidence contradicting that position.

So too have we. While your examples of "Indian hate" is restricted to angry words, the hatred that some of your countrymen express towards us manifests itself through acts of butchery in numerous dead bodies of my countrymen & women. Even if, as you argue the state is not culpable, the hatred felt & expressed by many of those masquerading as "non state actors" is simply not comparable to angry opinions expressed by any number of Indians, on any parameter.

Unlike you, I have no need for any other type of evidence to make my point.

 

[prototype]

After all the stupid Indian govt had to open its mouth in condeming Israel.

instead they should have kept quiet just like China and should have worked behind the scenes in helping the Palestinians.

Israel is one of India's few true friends and GOI issuing a statement like this.

well india criticized cleverly, never named israel in its criticism,a little indirect

israel is our friend and will remain our friend