India slams Israeli attack on Gaza aid flotilla

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You are the one who claimed that proxies are not terrorists( I saw your clarification about "necessarily") in reply to this comment.

Originally Posted by Spitfighter
By that measure wouldn't Pakistan be considered a state sponsor of terror, since the LeT/JuD is banned yet most (even folks here) Pakistanis openly support using proxies against India in Kashmir and otherwise?

There is a clear reference to LeT/JuD in the statement that you quoted from. How should I read it? If the connection was not intended, say so & we will move on.

There is also a more general reference to 'proxies' in that statement by Spitfighter, and the combination of the two by Spitfighter suggested an attempt by him to brand all proxies as terrorists, and subsequent response to him lacked one word for clarification purposes, which was subsequently pointed out by me. That said, I assume then that both of you agree with my point that proxies, whether Kashmiri insurgents fighting Indian SF's or the Taliban fighting other factions in a civil war, are not automatically terrorists, and that only deliberate attacks on non-combatants as a matter of policy by any organization can count as terrorism.

Have no idea as to how you would define the size of this "extremely small minority". Regardless of their size, they seem to attract much support which also involves looking the other way when attempts are made by India to book them. Hafeez Saeed has been described as a person who is only involved in charity while he is busy with hate speeches against India. Politicians from all parties routinely share a dais with him.Who can forget as Fateh points out, college students cheering Zaid Hamid when he rails against India & Hindus? A member on this forum said that what he wished for his new born son was to participate in Ghazwa e Hind when he grows up. Don't even have to look that far; you have never condemned HS as far as I remember. You have used your considerable debating skills to obfuscate the issue talking about a perceived absence of evidence when you seem to make no similar distinctions with those who are thought of as Pakistan's enemies.

I would define that 'extremely small minority' based on polling data, conducted by international and local polling organizations of repute, from Pakistan over the past several years, that has consistently shown an overwhelming majority opposing attacks on civilians and terrorism. I would define that 'extremely small minority' based on the fact that an extremely small number of Pakistani posters on this forum and on most other Pakistani mainstream media outlets, blogs and forums exhibit the sort of callous behavior exhibited by many Indians on mainstream Indian media outlets, blogs and forums, in celebrating the massacres of innocents at the hands of terrorists and exulting in those acts.

The "small minority" that you refer to cannot exist without the silent or active support of a much larger group. There can be no justification that would be accepted if someone said that he funds Al Qaeda's charity organisation, such an excuse must not be accepted when the organisation in question is JuD . Yet we see much support for such funding.

The small minority is the support group, the actual perpetrators are but a handful.

No Indian public figure could ever get away denigrating someone's religion as they do so openly in Pakistan. There are umpteen references to "bagal me churi, muh me Ram Ram" and "bania" in this forum to denigrate Indians. I'm not even starting on the colour and ugliness comments. Dravidian is used almost as a degrading term.Fateh has provided a far more exhaustive list in his post.

And those umpteen comments are primarily by a handful of individuals, not the vast majority of members of the forum, as I clarified to Fateh

I second Fateh when he says that your remarks reflect your own opinion & nothing more. Would gladly revisit when you see & recognise the "appalling attitude" of quite a few Pakistanis that we see so routinely on this forum & elsewhere.

Until I see mainstream Pakistani media outlets swamped with the sort of bigoted comments I see on Indian media outlets, in similar numbers, or other evidence such as polling data substantiating your POV about Pakistani and Indian attitudes, I cannot agree with you.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, I'll keep it short, there are absolutrely brilliant, liberal, humanist, pacifist, respectable voices on Pakistani side and I much respect it, despite the presence of absolutely crazy bigoted voices and I treat them on merit.

Thank you, but where are these 'brilliant, liberal, humanist, pacifist, respectable voices' in the Indian media? As I said, barring Arundhati Roy, who is swamped with voices vilifying her as soon as she opens her mouth, there is no conversation in the mainstream Indian media that we see in the Pakistani media from Pakistani liberals and moderates. Even The News, the most right-wing of the mainstream papers, has its liberal voices and editorials - Pakistani coverage in the ToI on the other hand has been called out plenty of times for its inflammatory rhetoric and distortions.

I expect the same from you and I refuse to be held hostage to some (not necessarily ur) weird claims about India's pragmatism to be called hypocracy. What we did was in the open, our deals with Israel are open and our support for palestinians is open too, historically, and our material help to the palestinians REAL.

So lets not pass moral judgements when we all follow pragmatic approaches in foreign policy, ex - ur relations with China. The thread is abt India's condemnation of Israeli actions, lets stick to that.

Again, I offered my views on India's 'condemnation' in my exchange with Desiman much earlier in the thread. Beyond that I only argued in favor of a point raised by Meengla, that the side of Indian opinion that comes across online is a very negative one, before Hobbes and Bangalore digressed into a 'Uighur and JuD' discussion.

BTW, I am willing to believe that there is a current of thought in India that matches the 'liberal, reformist and pacifist voices' on the Pakistani side, but I have to see it, and part of the reason behind pointing this out is to hopefully have more Indians step up and take their fellow Indians to task on mainstream outlets and other platforms, and speak up for that 'pacifism, reform and liberalism' when it comes to Pakistan, as you see being done by Pakistani liberals and moderates.

Why aren't Indians posting opinions from these 'liberal, pacifist Indian voices' on this forum and elsewhere and highlighting them?

 

[T-Faz]

Some of the aid and support India has given to Palestine cause in recent past :

1. India gifts embassy to Palestine, pledge $20 million aid

2. India gives Rs 65 crore aid to Palestine - India - The Times of India

3. ReliefWeb » Document » OPT: PRCS receives humanitarian aid from the Indian people and Government

4. Humanitarian aid to Palestine - Indian Ministry of External Affairs press release/Non-UN document (11 August 2006)

5. What Indians And Palestinians Share



Some History of support:

1. Indian Muslims And Palestine Waqfs | Indian Muslims

2. India?Palestine relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. Mahatma Gandhi Rejected Zionism

4. Mahatma Gandhi on Zionism and Palestine


These are few links to enrich those who question Indian support to Palestine.They forget that they themselves need to do other than lip-service to thier brethern.

Fighter

This so called lip service actually involved military action against a nation that is closely aligned with a very important ally for us at that time. You should read these and make yourself familiar with the actions of Pakistani forces that were very vital in sending a message to certain nations.

1967 Arab-Israeli 'Six-Day' War

RJAF and PAF were flying under a joint command. Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam became the only pilot from the Arab side to have shot down 3 IDF/AF aircraft within 72 hours and also the only pilot to have shot down 3 different aircraft types of the IDF/AF. He was, subsequently, decorated by Jordan, Iraq, Syria and Pakistan.

1973 Arab-Israeli 'Yom Kippur' War

During the war 16 PAF pilots volunteered to go to the Middle East in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived, Egypt had already been pushed into a ceasefire. Syria remained in a state of war against Israel.

On 23 October 1973, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. M. Hatif on deputation to Egyptian Air Force (EAF) was flying a EAF MiG-21 in a defensive combat air patrol (CAP) over Egypt when he was vectored towards an intruding Israeli Air Force (IDF/AF) F-4 Phantom. In the ensuing dogfight, Flt. Lt. M. Hatif shot down the Israeli Phantom.[35]
Eight (8) PAF pilots started flying out of Syrian Airbases; they formed the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr Airbase. The Pakistani pilots flew Syrian MiG-21 aircraft conducting CAP missions for the Syrians.

On 26 April 1974, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi on deputation to No. 67 Squadron, Syrian Air Force (SAF) was flying a SAF MiG-21FL Fishbed (Serial No. 1863) out of Dumayr Air Base, Syria in a two-ship formation with a fellow PAF pilot and the Flight Leader, Sqn. Ldr. Arif Manzoor. The Ground Controller, also a PAF officer, Sqn. Ldr. Salim Metla, vectored the two PAF pilots to a formation of 2 Israeli Air Force Mirage IIICJs and 2 F-4 Phantoms that had intruded into Syrian airspace over the Golan Heights. In the engagement that took place at 1532 hours, Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi shot down an Israeli Mirage IIICJ using his MiG-21's R(K)-13 Air-to-Air Missile. The pilot of the downed Israeli Mirage was Capt. M. Lutz of No. 5 Air Wing, who ejected. The remaining Israeli fighters aborted the mission. The 2 IAF Mirage IIICJs were from Hatzor AFB and the 2 IAF F-4 Phantoms were from No. 1 Air Wing, Ramat David AFB, Israel.[36][37]

Flt. Lt. A. Sattar Alvi became the first Pakistani pilot, during the Yom Kippur War, to shoot down an Israeli Mirage in air combat.He was honored by the Syrian government.[38] Other aerial encounters involved Israeli F-4 Phantoms; Pakistan Air Force did not lose a single pilot or aircraft during this war.

Our limitations occur in the lack of action on part of the nations that are supposed to be leading the cause for the Palestinians. We have done as much as we can and even started dialogue with Israel so that the state of Palestine can be created. There was some serious development but it they stalled. Read this article from the Jewish Political Studies Review to understand the complex situation of Pakistani-Israel relation and the demands that we have continuously put forward.

On 1 September 2005, a public meeting was held in Istanbul between the then Israeli foreign minister Silvan Shalom and his Pakistani counterpart Khurshid Kasuri. Shalom was euphoric and said the meeting was a "source of great encouragement and hope for the Israeli people and aids in strengthening the moderates on the Palestinian side." The Israeli journalists present were also swept up in the exaggerated excitement and called it a "historic meeting." They said it was a Pakistani "gift" to Israel for evacuating its settlements in Gaza, which was taking place at that time.

Jewish Political Studies Review - Pakistan and Israel

Only those countries who can utilize both military and diplomatic solutions will be able to establish Palestine for the people who are suffering.

 

[Machoman]

Chalo dair aye durust aye.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Thank you, but where are these 'brilliant, liberal, humanist, pacifist, respectable voices' in the Indian media? As I said, barring Arundhati Roy, who is swamped with voices vilifying her as soon as she opens her mouth, there is no conversation in the mainstream Indian media that we see in the Pakistani media from Pakistani liberals and moderates. Even The News, the most right-wing of the mainstream papers, has its liberal voices and editorials - Pakistani coverage in the ToI on the other hand has been called out plenty of times for its inflammatory rhetoric and distortions.

Again, I offered my views on India's 'condemnation' in my exchange with Desiman much earlier in the thread. Beyond that I only argued in favor of a point raised by Meengla, that the side of Indian opinion that comes across online is a very negative one, before Hobbes and Bangalore digressed into a 'Uighur and JuD' discussion.

BTW, I am willing to believe that there is a current of thought in India that matches the 'liberal, reformist and pacifist voices' on the Pakistani side, but I have to see it, and part of the reason behind pointing this out is to hopefully have more Indians step up and take their fellow Indians to task on mainstream outlets and other platforms, and speak up for that 'pacifism, reform and liberalism' when it comes to Pakistan, as you see being done by Pakistani liberals and moderates.

Please look at the Pakistani liberal reaction in terms of the existentianl threat that they face.

Compare that to Indian media reaction at the time of Gujarat violence for example, in testing times you will fight back, hence Pakistani liberals are fighting back and I appreciate it. This does not mean India wants peace any less than Pakistan. Why would you even think that,surely you know some Indians personally?

 

[anathema]

AM,

I read and re-read your posts but i am not sure what you mean by moderate and liberal voices amongst Indian populace. I am not sure on what grounds can you even compare them ? On one hand you have Indian populace who have faced more 3 decades of "IN YOUR WORDS - NON STATE ACTORS (Pakistan)" sponsored terrorism and on other hand you have a Pakistani populace who are realizing the menance of Radicals now - This was not the case before 9/11 where radicals did enjoy a sizeable support. Where were the moderate/liberal voices then ?

Nowadays whenever something happens in India/Pakistan, moderate/Liberal voices in Pakistan are coming out in the open purely because there is a feeling that maybe some Pakistani NON STATE actors are involved coupled with the fact that World media has focussed its attention on Pakistan due to its natural breeding ground of terrorism. It is this guilt and no less feeling that aligator breed by Pakistani Non state actors in their Garden is now harming them as well as others. What do you expect Liberal voices in India to say ? Do you want to hear condmenation, sadness when a attack happens in Pakistan ? Do you expect staunch support and sympathy when an attack happens in pakistan ? Whenever an Attack happens in US, UK, ISRAEL and even middle east - Indians do express their sympathies and support - you can check blogs however not the case here. There were moderate/liberal voices during LTTE crisis in SriLanka. There are Moderate voices for Moist trouble. And ohh there are many other voices rather than just Arundati Roy with regards to Moists, many more articles are published in TOI and other papers. The nice forgiving Indians will say - ' you have raised this menance, now deal with it'..the hardcore ones will not have good words since they realize they have have been victims of this BS much before than any one in Pakistan realizes.Especially considering the fact that India has more than on one occassion requested that activities HS (jammat..) be clamped down but he is freely making anti india speeches with no remorse and worse it gets covered and even worse bloggers justify it on basis of evidence. Then on what grounds are you expecting the Liberal/Moderate voices to speak in India for and whom for ? HS ?Hope you understand this before expecting the moderate/liberal voices from India.

Peace !!

 

[vandemataram]

So what was the 'humanitarian aid' flotilla for?

So everyomne is talking about moral grounds, politics, reasons, counter-reasons et al;

Gambit has hit the bull's eye, let us have a detailed discussion on the Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH) and its credentials to start with and then we can secure ourselves in the comfortable confines of our bedrooms to even think of condemning or otherwise of Israeli actions.

 

[sraja]

You want me to start posting pictures of Sudans elites as well?

What i posted is not palestinian elites, smarty. They are average palestinians.

Please have some facts and a lot less fiction.

Why don't you click the link i gave to check whether it is fiction or fact ?

What is happening in Gaza is criminal. .

Sure, the atrocities of Hamas is indeed criminal.

---------- Post added at 01:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 AM ----------

So what was the 'humanitarian aid' flotilla for?

This video can partially answer the question.

 

[Meengla]

I suspected I hit some raw Indian nerve by mentioning that this Topic is started by an Indian to do some 'damage control'--and I was correct.
Soon after the Flotilla Raid Indians came out and started justifying Israeli attack. They did it in quite disproprotionate numbers and exposed themselves to the world. This was not just limited to this blog--other places too Indians are like that. When I mentioned the Indian reaction at the 'Times of India' some Indian here is trying to portray that as a tiny percentage of the Indian population. Well, so were those 18 terrorists who killed the innocent people in Mumbai--do some math for 18 in 170 million of Pakistani population.

Anyway, the Indian blogspace, as the post right above me by Vandematram points out, is standing out for supporting Israel.

Indian policy may have been pro-Palestinians before the early 90's but when even the largest/second-largest political party like BJP comes out again and again and mention 'Islamic' terrorism then Indians had firmly internalized the religious bigotry.

So....Turkish, Arab, and Iran and other bloggers here: Keep noticing these Indian bloggers' stand. Their govt's stand is in contrast to the 'educated' sector of the Indian society. This topic is an exercise in damage control by Indians.

Finally...I think I have said all I wanted to say in this Topic. We will have another encounter. But I'd like to point out that Pakistanis do NOT hide that the fact that there are powerful Jihadi elements in Pakistan and we are trying to put them into their place. Shortly after the Flotilla Raid, there were some of us, inlcuding me, commented that the Jihadists who are terrorizing Pakistan should not be allowed any mileage out of the new situation. But Indians keep bringing up Uighur, Kurds, and Pakistan-based terrorists to divert the attention.

Of course Pakistanis are 'expedient' as are Indian. Our guest @Banga Lore is correct about all of us. But justifying the Flotilla attack is just way too much!

 

[sraja]

Gambit has hit the bull's eye, let us have a detailed discussion on the Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH) and its credentials to start with and then we can secure ourselves in the comfortable confines of our bedrooms to even think of condemning or otherwise of Israeli actions.

From renowned security expert B.Raman about IHH,

Israeli Action against So-Called Freedom Flotilla

By B. Raman

According to the British Broadcasting Corporation, the so-called Freedom Flotilla carrying humanitarian supplies to Gaza, which was intercepted by the Israeli Navy in international waters on May 31, 2010, consisted of three cargo ships and three passenger ships.

2.Most of the casualties were reported on Mavi Marmara, a passenger ferry, one of three ships provided by Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), a Turkish humanitarian organisation, which is also known as the Humanitarian Relief Foundation, The Foundation for Human Rights and Freedom and Humanitarian Relief –IHH. It is banned in Israel, which accuses it of links to Hamas and Al Qaeda. The other ships were organised by the Free Gaza Movement, an international coalition of activist groups.

3. The ships were reportedly carrying supplies including cement, wheelchairs, paper and water purification systems. The flotilla's nearly 700 passengers were mainly Turkish, but also included nationals of the US, the UK, Australia, Greece, Canada, Belgium, Ireland, the Swedish author Henning Mankell, two Australian journalists and three German MPs.

4. According to reports from Pakistan, there were also some Pakistanis on board the IHH ferry. The Pakistani authorities were trying to enquire what happened to them. While the Israeli authorities were prepared to allow the humanitarian supplies to reach the people of Gaza after inspecting them at a port designated by them, the organisers of the flotilla were opposed to any inspection of the cargo by the Israeli authorities.

5. Israeli fears over the passengers on board the ships and over their contents were understandable because of strong suspicions nursed by the intelligence and security authorities of many countries over the background of the IHH, which came into existence in 1992 ostensibly to provide humanitarian assistance to the Muslims of Bosnia. Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran, with the connivance of the Bill Clinton Administration then in power in the US, helped the Bosnian Muslims in their fight against the Serbs.

6. Many Bosnian Muslims were brought to Pakistan for being trained in the camps of the Markaz Dawa Al Irshad (MDI) as the Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JUD), the political wing of the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LET,) was then known and then taken back to Bosnia. There was considerable flow of money and arms and ammunition to the Bosnian separatists. Many Pakistanis from Pakistan itself as well as from the Pakistani diaspora in the UK were trained by the JUD and taken to Bosnia for participating in the jihad against the Serbs. Some Indian-origin Muslims from Saudi Arabia were also taken to Bosnia.

7. All these activities for the provision of volunteers, money and arms and ammunition to the Bosnian separatists were allegedly co-ordinated by the IHH, under the cover of a humanitarian organisation, with the collaboration of the MDI. Amongst the Pakistanis who played an active role in organising assistance for the Bosnians through the IHH and the MDI were Lt.Gen.(retd) Hamid Gul and Lt.Gen (retd). Assad Durrani, former heads of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Qazi Hussain Ahmed, the then Amir of the Jamaat-e-Islami (JEI, and Prof.Hafeez Ahmed Sayeed, who was then the Amir of the MDI. Lt.Gen. Assad Durrani, who was posted as the Pakistani Ambassador to Germany by Mrs.Benazir Bhutto, the then Pakistani Prime Minister, co-ordinated the assistance from the Ummah to the Bosnians.

8. All these Pakistanis frequently used to visit Bosnia. Mrs.Benazir herself made a joint visit to Bosnia along with Mrs. Tansu Ciller, the then Turkish Prime Minister, in February 1994. Among Pakistani volunteers from the diaspora in the UK who allegedly worked for the IHH in Bosnia was Omar Sheikh, who is now in jail in Pakistan after having been sentenced to death for his role in the kidnapping and execution of Daniel Pearl, the US journalist, in Karachi in January-February, 2002. He has appealed against the death sentence.

9. All indications from reliable Pakistani and other sources were that the IHH’s role in Bosnia was not solely humanitarian. The humanitarian cover was allegedly used for keeping alive the Bosnian jihad and enabling it to succeed against the Serbs. The IHH allegedly played a similar role in Chechnya by helping the local Muslims in their jihad against the Soviet and then Russian troops. It then turned its attention to helping the Kashmiris by funding refugee camps for Kashmiris set up by the MDI and other Pakistani jihadi organisations in Pak-Occupied Kashmir. These refugee camps also became training centres for training Kashmiri and Pakistani jihadis for fighting against the Indian security forces.

10. The IHH also played an active role, in collaboration with the JUD, in organising humanitarian relief after the devastating earthquake in the PaOK in 2005. The flow of money and other assistance from the Muslims in other countries for the quake victims was co-ordinated by the IHH.

11. The IHH has also been contributing funds to the International Islamic University in Pakistan, which has been providing ideological motivation to the jihadis fighting in Afghanistan. Amongst other Pakistani organisations with which the IHH has allegedly been collaborating are the Al Rashid Trust, which was designated by the US and the Terrorism Monitoring Committee of the UN Security Council after 9/11 as an organisation allegedly funding terrorism, and the Khubaib Foundation, which reportedly runs a network of orphanages. The Foundation frequently organises visits by IHH delegations to the PaOK and Gilgit-Baltistan.

12. The Israeli authorities have valid reasons to be concerned over the links of the IHH with the Hamas. One cannot find fault with their decision to stop the Flotilla in order to prevent its cargo from reaching Gaza uninspected. Any intelligence agency worth its salt would be concerned over the dangers of arms and ammunition and weapons of mass destruction material like material for dirty bombs being smuggled into Gaza along with the humanitarian cargo. It would have been the height of irresponsibility to have allowed the cargo to proceed to Gaza without being inspected.

13. It is tragic that there were casualties among the passengers of the ferry hired by the IHH, which was boarded by Israeli commandoes following resistance put up by the passengers of the ferry, but this could not have been helped. Israel exercised its right of self-defence to protect the lives of its citizens from any dangerous cargo carried by the ships. India should refrain from criticising Israel for its action.

 

[EjazR]

This so called lip service actually involved military action against a nation that is closely aligned with a very important ally for us at that time. You should read these and make yourself familiar with the actions of Pakistani forces that were very vital in sending a message to certain nations.


Only those countries who can utilize both military and diplomatic solutions will be able to establish Palestine for the people who are suffering.

Sorry T-Faz, but this was hardly any message sent. These pilots if true went as VOLUNTEERS and flew under the Jordanian flag. Not as PAF representatives. And sending 10-15 pilots will not alter the course of these wars. 1967 was a complete defeat. 1973 was slightly successful only because of Egyptian advances in sinai.

The only time Pakistani representatives were present under the Pakistani flag was under Gen Zia in Jordan who was there on a training mission. And I don't want to elaborate on the Black September happenings then.

The question is what did GoP do for Palestine as a representative of the Pakistani people. I am yet to see something substantive. I'm pretty sure there must have been some economic aid sent by them but haven't been able to see that yet.

I think its about time to stop being hypocritical with GoI position on Israel Palestine issue given this reality.

 

[EjazR]

The editorial from one of the most respected and widely read papers in India

The Hindu : Opinion / Editorials : Israel's rogue behaviour

Tuesday's attack on an unarmed, humanitarian flotilla of activists carrying relief supplies for the besieged and blockaded people of Gaza is a reminder to the world of the lawless, outlaw nature of the Israeli state. Although the death toll is still unclear, as many as 10 activists, several of them Turkish nationals, died when Israel Defence Forces commandos swooped down on the vessels in international waters and used grossly disproportionate force to overcome the not unexpected resistance they encountered. The boats, their passengers, and cargo have all been illegally detained. Among those locked up by the Israelis are a number of journalists from around the world who had joined the flotilla to cover the story. The criminal Israeli response to what was intended to be a Gandhian act of solidarity with the Palestinian people is the product of the international community's failure to ensure that Tel Aviv's illegal and immoral blockade of Gaza was lifted. Israel cut off Gaza from the rest of the world in June 2007 as a means of weakening the political hold Hamas has on the territory. The rocket attacks were a pretext for the blockade, which quickly escalated into a full-scale war on the people of the territory. Gaza suffers all the evils of occupation despite the withdrawal by the Zionist forces in 2005.

The Israeli invasion of 2008-09 led to the commission of war crimes as documented by the UN-mandated Goldstone Commission. And the blockade of Gaza and its people amounts to collective punishment of civilians, another grave breach of international humanitarian law. Any other country would have been hauled over the coals by the UN Security Council for such rogue behaviour but Israel enjoys the backing of the United States. As a presidential candidate, Barack Obama held out the faint hope of a more even-handed approach to the problems of West Asia. But as President, he has dismally failed to exert the kind of pressure needed to get Israel to withdraw from the territories it has illegally occupied since 1967. The crime that played out on the high seas on May 31 is very much part of the crime of occupation. There is little sense in the UNSC asking for an inquiry into the incident when previous inquiries into Israeli behaviour — notably the Goldstone report — ended in the dustbin. At the very least, the international community must ensure the immediate end of the Israeli embargo on Gaza. No goal or logic can justify subjecting an entire civilian population to an economic blockade. India has joined democratic forces round the world in condemning the attack on the flotilla. It must move beyond this now and actively work for the lifting of the inhuman blockade

 

[EjazR]

For comparison, the letters to the editor the next day for the same editorial

The Hindu : Opinion / Letters : Israel's attack

Monday's brazen attack by Israeli commandos on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla shows Israel's disrespect for humanity and international law. It is not enough to condemn such acts. The world community should respond with timely action. Such acts by Israel will only fuel the fire of hatred in the already volatile West Asia.

Nilesh Kumar Rai,

New Delhi

Although the U.N. has strongly condemned the attack, it needs to be seen whether it will take any serious action against Israel. As long as Israel enjoys the support of the U.S., the rest of the world community can do little to prevent its rogue behaviour.

Deepa Nagaraj,

Hyderabad

The aid flotilla was in international waters and was not doing anything illegal when it was stormed by the Israeli military. If indeed some people on board attempted to defend themselves or to fend off the Israeli attack, they were justified. It is time the international community stood up to the cowardly and murderous Israeli regime. Shame on Israelis and shame on the so-called leaders in the U.S. and the U.N. for letting them get away.

Sandeep Ghiya,

Mumbai

The blatant attack proves that a country that is close to the U.S. is out of bounds for the U.N. and the rest of the international community. Israel, which has virtually severed Gaza from the outside world, should attract global sanctions and embargoes.

H.M. Riajul Hoque,

Kolkata

The news that Egypt has opened the Rafah crossing is heartening. Equally heartening is that Britain, France, Russia and China spoke with one voice on the need to investigate Israel's attack.

Sri Varshini Kolavennu,

Hyderabad

The editorial “Israel's rogue behaviour” (June 2) thoroughly exposed Israel's inhuman policy. With no country or force being able to rein in Tel Aviv, it appears to be fast on its path to becoming a rogue state. Such incidents of repulsive nature are bound to exacerbate the West Asia problem rendering the situation worse and making a permanent solution further elusive.

R. Sampath,

Chennai

The editorial was most appropriate and rational. Israel is the owner of neither Gaza (it was vacated in 2005) nor international waters. Palestinians suffering from the severe economic Israeli blockade are also of a different nationality. The cause for which the flotilla was moving towards Gaza did not constitute a threat to Israel as all passengers were unarmed. Israeli actions of killings, annexations and sanctions are threatening international peace and security. The U.S. must change its mindset.

Arshi Khan,

Aligarh

Israel's dastardly attack on the aid flotilla rightly evoked worldwide condemnation. But to be fair to it, there is a point in its argument that Gaza is being used as a springboard by Hamas for its terrorist activities.

C.A.C. Murugappan,

Kothamangalam

Israel may be a rogue country but it has its own strategy and a right to defend itself. But for its belligerent and extremely offensive stand at times, would it exist on the world map today? India should learn a lesson or two from Israel's policy of zero tolerance.

R. Parthasarathy,

Secunderabad

The editorial was one-sided. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Israel considers Gaza its territory, and it informed the international aid convoy to disembark in one of its ports. Aid agencies should respect Israel's sovereignty. Hamas has not yet recognised Israel. The media should educate people on both sides of the issue.

Saravanan Kannan,

New York

-----------------
Just a slight note, Kannan is in NY and probably does not know that even the Israeli govt. does not regard Gaza as its territory as he mentioned in his letter here. No wonder GoI position is in sync with what majority of Indians think.

 

[anathema]

I suspected I hit some raw Indian nerve by mentioning that this Topic is started by an Indian to do some 'damage control'--and I was correct.

Your opinion is rubbish!! Most of the Indians have and will condemn the Israeli actions , nothing justifies loss of life. But what the Indians are dismayed by is utter prejudice of opinion from Pakistani side on the basis of religion. As i said before, Indians dont have Religion baggage as nation comes first and hence can see through a bit clearly. That is not the case here. The moment Islam comes into picture , pakistanis in general cries Victims and expects the world to support them vociferously. This is not understood and hence we ask for evidence which apparently you guys misunderstand us to support Israel.

Soon after the Flotilla Raid Indians came out and started justifying Israeli attack.

Indians did not justify the Israeli attack !! Indians did try to justify Israeli soldiers means to defend themselves. And hence the counter questioning , asking for proof's - which apparently you guys consider against your opinion. Most of them condemned Israeli actions in International waters however Most of the Pakistanis did consider the POV that had Israelis conducted the operation in their waters , they would have run out of reasons to debate on this also coupled with fact the photographs were released of Soldies beaten to death. In the end nothing justifies loss of life, i strongly condemned Israeli actions on this reason alone. However i have to say If i have a gun and my dear friend and comrade is getting beaten black and blue with sticks and knifes , I will not give a second thought to using that Gun. Hope that is clear and agreeable enough for you.

They did it in quite disproprotionate numbers and exposed themselves to the world.

We have been trying to EXPOSE pakistan since last two decades , we have been crying out loud for terrorism , for non state actors , etc..What has happened ? Nobody and nobody will pay atttention. Countries have its own interests in mind.

This was not just limited to this blog--other places too Indians are like that. When I mentioned the Indian reaction at the 'Times of India' some Indian here is trying to portray that as a tiny percentage of the Indian population. Well, so were those 18 terrorists who killed the innocent people in Mumbai--do some math for 18 in 170 million of Pakistani population.

Do you really want to go over there ? you can do better than that. Anyways we Indians ( i speak for myself though) do not understand this Hoop Hoola created and overwhelming voices generated ,cries of war against Jews -- why because of Soldiers tried to Board and were beaten and deaths happened ??
This kind of reactions were not seen -- When NK torpedoed SK ship and lifes were lost ...Most of them were like...Hmm Ok , we condemn this , NK is junk and then moved on. his kinds of reactions were not seen when people died in India pre 9/11 ...This kind of reactions were not seen when Chinese suppreses Tibet/UIG...This is what is baffling about the double standard.

Anyway, the Indian blogspace, as the post right above me by Vandematram points out, is standing out for supporting Israel.

Essential in Democracy - Everybody has a right to speak for themselves and this is what exactly you are seeing. Many are with and many are against. Reasons are there, if you can read a couple of my prior posts.

Indian policy may have been pro-Palestinians before the early 90's

And who says we are not now !!! Do you have access to GOI policy ? Do you have a source ?? Is that the limitation of your analysis ?? Is that how you arrive at a opinion?? If that is the case then i know how to arrive at a opinion myself -- Most of the terrorists have a Pakistani connection , So pakistan is supporting ....fill in the blanks. I didnt intend to flame but you can clearly see how this goes. As you might know we do more for Palestines than giving some big talk about brotherhood and wiping zionists from face of earth. Its real and it can be seen.

but when even the largest/second-largest political party like BJP comes out again and again and mention 'Islamic' terrorism then Indians had firmly internalized the religious bigotry.

Bigotry is becoming quite a famous word out here...Anyways do we need to give every issue a religious angle ?? Understand this Indians do not have /have considerably less religious baggage than you guys. Can you reconcile with this fact and leave your obsessions about Religion being Integral part of everything thats happening ? BJP came and went , congress has been ruling for more than 6 years - A sikh is PM, Most of the Indian bloggers are of diverse religion(Sikhs, Hindus , Catholics , Muslims , etc) , Sonia is brains (for all i know she is still Catholic) then how can religion come to play when your opinions are questioned.

So....Turkish, Arab, and Iran and other bloggers here: Keep noticing these Indian bloggers' stand.

So ???? And what are they going to Do ??? Or is it that any other opinion than yours is considered immoral and not justified -- Are you not taught in life that there can be more than one opinion in a situation depending on your pov. Stop trying to hide behind Arabs backs for every reason. Turkey has every reason to be mortified with loss of lives (its their reasons), they should demand and get justice and Israel should be tried. Iran is well its just Iran.

Their govt's stand is in contrast to the 'educated' sector of the Indian society. This topic is an exercise in damage control by Indians.

GOI's stand is the same as Indians. Indians have codmned the loss of life at Israeli hands. Yet Indians do not understand the religious connotation for every single difference of opinion and hence we try to counter it.

Hell the tag of this thread is HINDU ZIONISM...not sure who tagged it that way.

Finally...I think I have said all I wanted to say in this Topic. We will have another encounter. But I'd like to point out that Pakistanis do NOT hide that the fact that there are powerful Jihadi elements in Pakistan and we are trying to put them into their place. Shortly after the Flotilla Raid, there were some of us, inlcuding me, commented that the Jihadists who are terrorizing Pakistan should not be allowed any mileage out of the new situation. But Indians keep bringing up Uighur, Kurds, and Pakistan-based terrorists to divert the attention.

So have I, my last post on this thread...there is no point in discussing where a condemnation by GOI is trolled/is tried to be seen as a support for Israel from Indians. Kare tho bi problem, Naa kare tho bi !! Hadh hoti yaar !! When the incident happened people were pouncing in the first 4 pages and screaming , where is Indian condemnation ?? "You see - Indians will not do that since they support Israel" and when India did do that "pretty quickly also" -- Bolti bandh (for some time)...and now this stupidity of trying to generalize it. And no one , i mean no one - has voiced or raised concern that Why China has not condmned Israeli actions in the recent cultural meet ? Hypocrisy !!
None needs to divert attention, its there for everyone to see but you are choosing to ignore it. Bangalore's opinion was just and his reasoning sound.

Of course Pakistanis are 'expedient' as are Indian. Our guest @Banga Lore is correct about all of us. But justifying the Flotilla attack is just way too much!

Regardless of your opinion , I strongly condemn Loss of Life by Israelis and Hope justice is done for them. That being said , i also strongly condemn this sort of stupid bravado displayed by Peace activits ( there are anything but peace activists) - Hope sense prevails next time.

THANKS EJAZ for posting the opinions. Hope atleast people show some sense , however i am not expecting anything great -- next thing we know is reasoning that "Opinions published are minority - Look at other blogs "

 

[Bang Galore]

I suspected I hit some raw Indian nerve by mentioning that this Topic is started by an Indian to do some 'damage control'--and I was correct.
Soon after the Flotilla Raid Indians came out and started justifying Israeli attack. They did it in quite disproprotionate numbers and exposed themselves to the world. This was not just limited to this blog--other places too Indians are like that. When I mentioned the Indian reaction at the 'Times of India' some Indian here is trying to portray that as a tiny percentage of the Indian population. Well, so were those 18 terrorists who killed the innocent people in Mumbai--do some math for 18 in 170 million of Pakistani population.

Anyway, the Indian blogspace, as the post right above me by Vandematram points out, is standing out for supporting Israel.

Indian policy may have been pro-Palestinians before the early 90's but when even the largest/second-largest political party like BJP comes out again and again and mention 'Islamic' terrorism then Indians had firmly internalized the religious bigotry.

So....Turkish, Arab, and Iran and other bloggers here: Keep noticing these Indian bloggers' stand. Their govt's stand is in contrast to the 'educated' sector of the Indian society. This topic is an exercise in damage control by Indians.

Finally...I think I have said all I wanted to say in this Topic. We will have another encounter. But I'd like to point out that Pakistanis do NOT hide that the fact that there are powerful Jihadi elements in Pakistan and we are trying to put them into their place. Shortly after the Flotilla Raid, there were some of us, inlcuding me, commented that the Jihadists who are terrorizing Pakistan should not be allowed any mileage out of the new situation. But Indians keep bringing up Uighur, Kurds, and Pakistan-based terrorists to divert the attention.

Of course Pakistanis are 'expedient' as are Indian. Our guest @Banga Lore is correct about all of us. But justifying the Flotilla attack is just way too much!

From the very first day after the Israeli attack, Indians seem to have been put on test by some Pakistanis to prove their stand on Palestine. According to them, unless we join you in calling Israel all kind of names and agree that jews generally are evil, it proves that we are against the Palestinians. Read what many Pakistanis had to say on that thread. When one Indian didn't follow your script. Pakistani members jumped in calling Indians all sort of names, implying genetic & historical reasoning of why Hindus/Indians were never to be trusted etc. etc. Those remarks naturally rankle & more Indians who were not involved get drawn to the argument. The nature of the forum creates a sort of vicious cycle wherein the more they are attacked, the harder they push back. To extrapolate from this & suggest as you are doing that we blindly support Israel or that we are anti Palestine and all our remarks to the contrary are expedient is more than a bit unfair.

As I said before many Pakistanis see it differently because of religious history. Even Musharraf, when he was making this about turn after 9/11 chose to draw on that analogy referring to jews. We have no such baggage. As such, we can see the incident for what it is & condemn specific acts & not a whole people as you guys are more prone to doing. While there will always be a few with bigoted thoughts, they are not held by the majority. Most Indian members have not made references to religion while discussing the Palestinian issue while many Pakistanis have commented on that fact as also passing disparaging remarks about jews.

Most people in India would be supportive of the Palestinian cause while simultaneously valuing Israel's friendship with us. We reject your contention that it is an either/or issue. We are quite comfortable with the positions we take and don't need certification from you or anyone else in the matter.