India severely lags behind China in terms of infrastructure: Defence Report

[Genesis]

First of all, not all Indians are poor. Secondly, there was a time when China was also dirt poor, under Mao and communism. Only after they enacted free market reforms did they start getting rich. The same thing applies to India as well - we were super socialistic until 1993, which is when we opened our markets. In 20 or 30 years from now, poverty in India will also shrink, just as it did in China. Both countries were the victim of a failed, unscientific, psuedo economic system that kept them poor - but China got rid of that system two or three decades before India did. Hovewer, the choice between freedom and poverty is a false choice - Chinese people are committing a logical fallacy in bringing poverty into any discussion about freedom. They are two different things. It's a way of admitting that chinese people don't enjoy political freedom, but instead of admitting that, laugh at India's poverty to feel better. I'm not talking about you, since you are genuinely discussing it instead of trolling; I'm referring to the fellow who started this discussion with his troll post, and many other such chinese posters. Instead of simply admitting that Indians enjoy political freedoms that chinese don't, they have to bring the unrelated issue of poverty.

Now coming to freedoms - there are many freedoms, and in the context of India and china, what we usually refer to is political freedom. Now despite poverty, it is a fact, an undeniable fact that Indians (rich or poor) do enjoy political freedoms that are comparable to the free world. Anybody, rich or poor can vote and elect their representatives, and have a say in the course of government. If we don't like where the govt is headed, we can kick it out - that's a fact, and you will probably see it in the next general elections in a few months time. We also have elections at state and local levels, and in the recent elections in five states, the ruling party got kicked out of power. What does all this amount to? It amounts to the fact that the govt is very sensitive to the voive of the people, and scared of public opinion - as they shoud be. That they are our servants, not our masters.

When China was dirt poor, they had neither money, nor the ability to change those in power. So Mao and the party could do what they wanted, kill millions through stupid economic policies and mass starvation, and enact ''great leaps'' to death.There was nothing the people could do to change the disastrous govt.

About that part about Indian voters being bribed to vote - it is simply not true. First of all ballots are secret - nobody knows who you voted for, except the electronic machine. By and large India's elections are fully free and fair and transparent, especially after electronic voting was introduced. And coming to your questions of whether a poor person can truly be free - there you are muddying the waters of the topic, by confusing different kinds of freedoms. As I explained before, in this context we are talking about political freedoms, not the freedom to buy a car or apartment of one's choice - which of course, a very poor person does not have the luxury of choosing. But political freedom, freedom from oppresion, freedom to criticize, freedom of expression, freedom of thought, freedom of speech - all this applies to rich and poor, old and young.

Again I would like to say, this question isn't really even about India, I just mean can a poor person, any poor person be free. As I mentioned above, how can a democracy, achieve the same failure as a commi crazy state? You didn't do great leap forward, but the failed policies were there none the less.

Now I'm a pragmatic person, freedom to vote, freedom to express, freedom of thought is not a important if I didn't have food. As to freedom from oppression, can you honestly say nobody is being oppressed in India or even in America? Depends on what your definition of oppressed mean, a lot of protest are stopped in America, while some have the right reasons, due to losing of job that resulted from other than factors that were in their control and such, but even if they weren't oppressed, they rarely if ever result in well actual results.

Freedom to vote matters to those that can directly benefit, like lobbyists, can you honestly say Modi or Gandhi is going to be THE difference in a poor man's life? Chinese may not be able to vote, but by last estimate, more Chinese officials have been sentenced than Indians kicked out due to corruption or other each year. Maybe India is less corrupt due to this, but would you put your money on that?

Expression sure, but to an uneducated person that means nothing, even if all Indians can read, I still have my doubts on the total effectiveness of expression, it has it's merits like Chinese officials getting axed or death, but again, it only matters to those that are full.

As to thought, you can think anything you like, but only a handful of people, chosen by the heavens have the actualy natural born ability to covert thought into useful action.

Lastly I never said Indians cheat in voting, but such tactics like free stuff is used in India, you won't deny it would you and it does have effect on the vote, doesn't it, but in reality it doesn't change the actual situation of these people does it.


Again, I'm wondering can these freedoms be turned into real action? The point of democracy isn't for a poor bum to scream at the top of his lungs, but to be able to live comfortable with rights. Or am I mistaken?

 

[janon]

The illusion of freedom is the opium of the democratic masses.

Any democracy beyond a certain size is inevitably controlled by a tiny elite of media and financial moguls: they decide which issues should dominate discussion and which issues get addressed first. Manipulating the masses is child's play since most ordinary voters have neither the time, desire nor ability to understand the complexities of major issues.

In the West, these elite have pushed though massive globalization, massive corporate subsidies/bailouts, and erosion of individual liberties. All this continues to erode the social democratic foundation which has formed the bedrock of the developed economies.

Democracy works wonderfully on a local level but, beyond a certain size, it simply does not scale.

And yet people in the west enjoy more personal liberties than anywhere else.

 

[Genesis]

Yes, a poor person can have political freedoms to the same extent that a rich person can. Certain other freedoms, no. That is why are are doing our best to eliminate or at least reduce poverty. Refer my previous post to uderstand why your question is flawed, and you are conflating different kinds of freedoms together.

And yes, we did start much later than you in adopting a market economy. You started with Deng Xiapo's reforms in the 70s, we started in 1993. Before that we had a fully socialistic economy - not the fault of the govt, even the people believed that to be the best system, because everybody was duped by the commie propoganda of the early 20th century. It was our own choice to be socialistic, and a damn stupid one.

As I replied to another, I am pragmatic, I believe in what I can see, what benefits me. Again, my take on freedom is freedom to live, freedom to live comfortable, and freedom to education, freedom to social security and such, these are the bases, then comes freedom to expression and political freedom. You can say you value these more, but I doubt if you can't read, can't eat, and live in a room with 8 guys, you would still think the same. Or maybe you would, but you will admit most wouldn't, or would they?

Again, adapting later is the problem, why did you start later? Democracy is suppose to help not destroy. I doubt your politicians were just shouting slogans, like communism rules, with no substance at all. Like this service and that project. So even if the political choice is wrong, these substance projects and services are still real no? Why didn't they follow through on those, you won't blame it all on communism? Your people is suppose to be able to monitor the government and kick them out if they suck. If four year later, they still can't find things to eat, do they not realize that? If yes, what kept that one government in power? Even if it's incremental changes, it would have resulted in good results, it's been 60+ years since then.

So did people specifically voted Communism and no food, or communism because it will provide food? If the latter, didn't they notice they were duped after the first election? How stupid does one have to be when nothing changes and they are hit tens of times by the same bomb in the same place. So the political freedom part at least didn't achieve its intended result, even you won't argue this would you.

 

[Developereo]

And yet people in the west enjoy more personal liberties than anywhere else.

It's all relative.

The fact that there is ambiguity in the public mind about whether Snowden is a hero or a traitor shows how far the politics of fear has taken hold of the psyche.

In Australia, the government openly forbids its employees to talk to the media -- or each other! -- about treatment of asylum seekers in detention centers (hardly a "national security" issue).

The media controls the public mind and the sheep don't even realize they are being controlled.

As long as they can go to the ballot box every few years and chose from a carefully selected list of two candidates (both of whom are fully beholden to often the same moneyed interests), the masses puff their chests about exercising their "freedom".

 

[jarves]

Yeah we are severely behind China but we are catching up fast.

 

[my2cents]

I'm not here to troll, but I want Indian's honest opinion, can freedom come from poverty?

One of the reasons I think African Americans face discrimination, don't give me Obama, there are special cases for everything, not because they don't have freedom, not because they don't have rights, but on average they are poor and that comes with an image, not fair, but not entirely unwarranted.

Africa is poor, Africans are seen as crazier than red commis, and looks down right barbaric.

So which leads me to can a poor Indian truly be free? Freedom in its simplest meaning is choices, but a poverty stricken person has none, not the least of which because he must eat before he can think, a hungry person makes some terrible choices, prostitution and crime comes to mind.

Indian voters are bought with a few acts here and there, but by in large the Indian democracy benefits them, but it is not freedom, it is in the truest sense what happens to servants, when I need you, I will give you a carrot, vote for me, then go away for four years, and rinse and repeat.


Now on the other hand, China is cleaning up the environment faster than India due to public pressure, Chinese lively hood has massively increased, no Chinese will ever want for food and water, if he's in his/her village/city, and all Chinese has the privilege of schooling and other social services. There are rare exceptions, key word rare, but let's look at the positives.

So in a sense, Chinese public opinion matters more, the Government can no more steam roll the public opinion than the Americans. Xi ate at a regular restaurant with no guards, and press. Regardless of it's realness, this shows he cares for public opinion. He wants people to support him to like him.

Some actions taken by the government looks unfair but there is actually support for it, despite what it might look from a western perspective, In China the majority rules, in democracy, the vocal minority does.

May I remind you not too long ago in 1960's your country had to undergo "great leap forward" in the name of change which resulted in innumerable deaths (some estimate run into 45 million people) by coercion and systematic state violence. Your govt. under Mao started introducing reforms after much upheaval in your rural communities. If those people had rights and had the freedom to voice their displeasure without retribution all those deaths could have been avoided.

 

[Secularpakistani]

Hehe, freedom of what? freedom to rape, to shit on the street, to elect corrupt politician, to openly lie without taking any responsibility, to go bed with hungary belly, to boot-lick your western master, to be treated like dirt by westers, you name it.

Man you nailed him so hard.

 

[amitkriit]

@Genesis I read this somewhere, I keep repeating it:

The last thing a starving man eats is his pride.

This phrase in a way summarizes the importance of freedom which is the natural right of every creature. When we talk about freedom, we talk about "Free Will".

Now back on topic, there is absolutely no doubt that India lags behind China in terms of Infrastructure. But this is not because of "freedom and democracy", this is because of bad economic policies. Just to clarify, I carry no contempt against the Chinese political system, this is what Chinese people decided for themselves, likewise we decided to build a free liberal state in India.

 

[Secularpakistani]

But indians still believe india is the next super power Thanks to their gujrati school system

 

[Chronos]

And the thread that states the most obvious fact goes to.....

 

[godofwar]

But indians still believe india is the next super power Thanks to their gujrati school system

Show some respect boi,Gujrat alone produces more electricity than entire Pakistan

 

[Secularpakistani]

Show some respect boi,Gujrat alone produces more electricity than entire Pakistan

Typically indian reply ..Even if gujrat really produces more electricity than pakistan that,s not something which will makes you a super power very soon

 

[kaykay]

But indians still believe india is the next super power Thanks to their gujrati school system

Post reported for trolling.
PS: I could have replied you in your manner but then It will bring me to your level.

 

[godofwar]

Typically indian reply ..Even if gujrat really produces more electricity than pakistan that,s not something which will makes you a super power very soon

It takes an absolute moron(this means you) to generalize 1.2billion Indians in just one statement.
Just goes to show brainwashing you and your countrymen have received.

P.S Did I mention anything about superpower genius ?

 

[thesolar65]

or I would say India severely lags behind China in everything except democratic. Haha, enjoy your freedom.

"Freedom", Thanks, At least you know the word, which is very sacred to all living beings. It comes first above everything, I mean everything.