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India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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If India selects any one of these by end of this year then how long they will get 126 MMRCA,
Keeping in mind that both EF & Rafale dont have AESA Radars.

India is already working with Israel and Russia on advanced radar systems,including Aesa. In the past, the French were ok with Israel upgrading the Mirages. No reason why they shouldn't in the future.
 
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Why all this talk about being able to carry a nuke? A nuclear warhead is nothing but another payload. If the fighter has specs to allow carrying payloads that can integrate nuclear warheads in them, they will be used to carry them.
No country will openly say it is using the planes to carry nuclear warheads.

Basically the talk came up from this report:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...a-s-strategic-forces-command.html#post1235089


As I said, in general any fighter could carry such payloads, but not any foreign country will allow export customers to do so. Germany will have a big problem with that for sure!
But also just because any fighter can carry such loads, it doesn't mean that any fighter would be useful for this role. The EF for example, is so far not very useful in the strike role. It neither can carry heavy bombs yet, nor has an twin seat version that would be used in such a strike mission, because the twin seat EF is mainly used as a trainer only.
Rafale on the other side was designed to takeover the nuclear role of the Mirage 2000N as well, that's why it had not only to carry the ASMP - A missile, but must have a twin seat operational version, might have some specialised radar, avionics and EWS features as well.
AFAIK, because the Rafale will replace many strike, or recon fighters of the French forces, they might end up with more twin seat Rafales then single seat, to make use of the advantage of 2 pilots in different, or long endurence roles, which is similar to IAFs strategy with MKI, or FGFA.
 
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If India selects any one of these by end of this year then how long they will get 126 MMRCA,
Keeping in mind that both EF & Rafale dont have AESA Radars.

Saturday, August 14, 2010

Thales delivers First AESA radar for the Rafale F3

Thales is delivering the first batch of 4 production AESA RBE-2AA this month (2010/08) to Dassault. Those new radar developped for the so called Rafale roadmap program will be fitted on the 60 rafale F3+ ordered for the french air force in december 2009. No retrofit to the 120 first rafale is planed so far...

Rafale News: Thales delivers First AESA radar for the Rafale F3


If Rafale is selected, the first fighters with AESA could be delivered from 2013 onwards. If EF is selected, the first squadron delivered to India might be T3As with puls doppler radar, while T3Bs with AESA might be delivered from 2015/16 onwards.
 
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Basically the talk came up from this report:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...a-s-strategic-forces-command.html#post1235089


As I said, in general any fighter could carry such payloads, but not any foreign country will allow export customers to do so. Germany will have a big problem with that for sure!
But also just because any fighter can carry such loads, it doesn't mean that any fighter would be useful for this role. The EF for example, is so far not very useful in the strike role. It neither can carry heavy bombs yet, nor has an twin seat version that would be used in such a strike mission, because the twin seat EF is mainly used as a trainer only.
Rafale on the other side was designed to takeover the nuclear role of the Mirage 2000N as well, that's why it had not only to carry the ASMP - A missile, but must have a twin seat operational version, might have some specialised radar, avionics and EWS features as well.
AFAIK, because the Rafale will replace many strike, or recon fighters of the French forces, they might end up with more twin seat Rafales then single seat, to make use of the advantage of 2 pilots in different, or long endurence roles, which is similar to IAFs strategy with MKI, or FGFA.

Thanks for the clarification. But hasn't India traditionally always gone for 2 seater version of jets? I am sure even the EFT would have to modified for this requirement.
Agree with your assesment of the Rafael.
BTW
Rafale supposedly carrying a nuclear ASMP-A
raf1.jpg
 
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Thanks for the clarification. But hasn't India traditionally always gone for 2 seater version of jets? I am sure even the EFT would have to modified for this requirement.

No not necessarily. Only the MKI and in future the FGFA are fully in twin seat config, while LCA, Migs, and even Jags, or Mirages had twin seat versions mainly as trainers. MMRCA is expected in a similar 16 x single seat + 2 x twin seat mix in each squad, but the advantage of Rafale twin seaters for deep strike and the nuclear role with twin seaters is very obvious. If Rafale is selected, I wouldn't be surprised if at least some squads will end up with more twin seaters as well.
 
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Nuclear Strike may be given into the hands of LCA-MK2 ... being Indian no one will object it... MK-2 will have huge useful payload and more internal fuel .. because it may outsmart Mirage...
 
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Nuclear Strike may be given into the hands of LCA-MK2 ... being Indian no one will object it... MK-2 will have huge useful payload and more internal fuel .. because it may outsmart Mirage...

It will take 9 years to complete the upgrade of Mirages.

By the time we will be inducting MRCA. Hence the Mirage lines might get transfered for Nuke roles.:police:
 
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Testing the next-generation Super Hornet

Nearly 11 years ago, I had the chance to fly a Boeing F/A-18F at NAS Lemoore, in California's central valley. During my familiarisation flight, I was able to sample first-hand the Super Hornet's capabilities.

To reduce risk and speed up delivery to the US Navy fleet, the initial (Block I) Super Hornet's avionics suite was the same as that of the then operational F/A-18C/D. The aircraft I flew had a Raytheon APG-73 radar and an inertial navigation system that could be augmented with a GPS receiver. Although not previewed on my flight, the Block I aircraft also had the capability to employ the joint helmet-mounted cueing system (JHMCS). At the time, I had not been long out of the cockpit of the Lockheed Martin F-16, and was generally impressed by the Super Hornet's capabilities. In particular, I found the radar's ground-mapping capability to be excellent.

Since then, Boeing has not stood still, and an upgraded Block II Super Hornet - incorporating numerous improvements to sensors, weapons systems and cockpit - was fielded in 2007. The new standard brought with it a state-of-the-art active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, an advanced tactical forward-looking infrared (ATFLIR) pod and a network capability.
getAsset.aspx


Turn and burn (c)US-Navy
© US Navy
The F/A-18E/F can employ weapons targeted by onboard sensors


Raytheon's APG-79 AESA radar significantly increased the Super Hornet's air-to-air as well as air-to-ground capabilities. The electro-optical ATFLIR offers high-resolution capability that can be "slaved" to the AESA radar and JHMCS. Net-centric operations capability was improved by adding a multi-functional information distribution system/Link 16 digital communication system.

Recently, at Boeing's facility in St Louis, Missouri, I was able to fly a fixed-base Block II Super Hornet simulator. The front cockpit was much as I remembered it from my flight. The aft cockpit, however, had a larger 8in x 10in (20cm x 25cm) multi-function display instead of the previous 6in x 6in one. Also, the missionised aft cockpit can now be operated independently of the front cockpit.

As with all current tactical aircraft, the Super Hornet has significant hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) capabilities. But what it lacked was 3D audio and voice command capability. The usefulness of voice commands may be debatable, but 3D audio can provide valuable spatial cues for threat reaction.

Although the Super Hornet is JHMCS capable, this was not used during my cockpit familiarisation flight. The JHMCS should be a great tactical asset, particularly during air combat manoeuvring. The accuracy of the off-boresight Raytheon AIM-9X Sidewinder infrared-guided missile is greatly enhanced by the ability to visually aim and shoot it at large off-axis angles.

My simulator sortie had air-to-air and air-to-ground elements, all flown near China Lake, just north of Edwards AFB. A final element involved three carrier landings at a notional ship off the coast of California.

getAsset.aspx

Future Hornet - Boeing
© Boeing
Further improvements to the General Electric F414 engines will enhance the performance

During the air-to-air engagements, it took me several minutes to get used to the Super Hornet's HOTAS controls. Cursor control in the F-16, for radar and other system slewing, is done with a thumb switch on the throttle. In the Super Hornet, it is done with the left middle finger, also on the throttle. Target designation can be done with a Z-axis/downward push on the slew button.

As a novice Super Hornet pilot, I found it difficult to keep the cursors over the target while designating it. I had the same problem when I flew a familiarisation flight in a Boeing F-15. I found using a separate button on the stick allowed me to designate targets without moving the cursors - an effective but much less elegant process than that employed by proficient F/A-18E/F pilots. Cueing symbols in the head-up display enabled me to visually acquire targeted aircraft rapidly, and the intuitive weapons symbology aided weapons employment.

Air-to-ground weapons delivery was practised from medium altitude. As with my actual flight in the Super Hornet, I found the Doppler beam sharpening mode of the radar built a very precise picture of the target environment. The APG-79's multi-tasking capabilities also allowed me to keep abreast of the air threats, while it drew a detailed picture of the China Lake airfield - our target area.

The Super Hornet is a formidable air-to-ground machine, with the ability to employ weapons targeted by onboard sensors (visual/radar/IR) as well as GPS- and laser-guided munitions. The two-seat Super Hornet with independent fore and aft cockpits should be a highly capable all-weather attack asset.

During the tactical portion of my simulator sortie, I felt at home in the Super Hornet's cockpit. Individual systems, the AESA radar in particular, are state of the art.

My overall feel for the pilot/vehicle interface, while it is effective and combat proven, was that it lags newer aircraft. Tactical information, for the most part, is presented on separate displays, forcing the pilot to do much of the fusion. This federated arrangement is no different from what I experienced when I flew a Block 60 F-16 simulator at Lockheed's Fort Worth facility in Texas in 2000. In 2007, I was able to fly a full-motion simulator for the Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter in both air-to-air and air-to-ground roles. The F-35's helmet-mounted display and large forward panel-mounted 19.6in x 8in display offered a wonderful palette to display truly fused tactical information.

getAsset.aspx


Cockpit with AESA radar- In the cockpit, individual systems, such as the AESA radar in particular, are state of the art

Engine and aircraft system information - readily available and automatically presented when needed - does not clutter the cockpit. The F-35's level of integration and sensor fusion was a generation ahead of what I experienced in the Block II Super Hornet and Block 60 F-16 simulator sessions.

But further slips to the F-35's initial operational capability date are a distinct possibility, while the Super Hornet is available now. Also, Boeing is hard at work developing cost-effective improvements and upgrades to the type.

Proposed improvements to the aircraft's General Electric F414 turbofan engines will enhance the Super Hornet's performance, and conformal fuel tanks will enable tactical operations at greater ranges.

A next-generation cockpit is also under development and has a very large 19in x 11in touch-sensitive display. I was able to fly a cockpit built around this display and can confirm that it provides an ideal palette to display fused tactical information.

The Super Hornet may have started life as a fourth-generation fighter, but Boeing's efforts should keep the type tactically relevant for years to come.

Testing the next-generation Super Hornet

MMMMMMMmmmmmmm....Still tempting ,isn't folks???;)
 
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India's Mirage upgrade: a prelude to a Rafale MMRCA win?
Rafale.jpg


It looks as if India is serious about upgrading its Dassault Mirage 2000Hs to Mirage 2000-9 standard. This is a major upgrade that will affect most systems in the aircraft. The bill, estimated at $2.2 billion, is staggering, working out to about $43 million an aircraft. One wonders if India would be better off buying new aircraft. In his MMRCA report earlier this year Ashley Tellis pegged the flyaway cost of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (with APG-79 AESA radar) at $60 million.

Anyway, the timing of the upgrade (first mooted in 2004) is interesting, as it coincides nicely with the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) shortlist that came out in April. This saw the Super Hornet, F-16IN Super Viper, Saab Gripen, and MiG-35 eliminated, creating a shortlist of the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon.

For some time I have suspected a linkage between the MMRCA deal and the eternally delayed Mirage upgrade. By linking the two separate purchases, India would be able to negotiate a better price for both. France, for its part, could offer a cut rate for the Mirage upgrade provided India guaranteed a decision favoring the Rafale, securing the first overseas victory for the type.

Remember, MMRCA could well go beyond the initial 126 aircraft, with the IAF buying up to 200. Later this decade India will also need a fighter for its new aircraft carriers - and the Rafale has proved itself with the French air force and navy. An MMRCA win would represent serious jobs and prestige for France, making a major price cut for the Mirage upgrade an attractive proposition. The upgrade's cost could end up being far below that staggering $2.2 billion figure.

Indian officials have reportedly set a timeline to select the MMRCA winner in September, with the extended bids from Dassault and Eurofighter to expire at the end of this year. Soon we'll know.
 
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So, 2.4 million Mirage upgrade contract to France is a good or bad sign for MMRCA - RAFALE?
 
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Basically the talk came up from this report:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...a-s-strategic-forces-command.html#post1235089


As I said, in general any fighter could carry such payloads, but not any foreign country will allow export customers to do so. Germany will have a big problem with that for sure!
But also just because any fighter can carry such loads, it doesn't mean that any fighter would be useful for this role. The EF for example, is so far not very useful in the strike role. It neither can carry heavy bombs yet, nor has an twin seat version that would be used in such a strike mission, because the twin seat EF is mainly used as a trainer only.
Rafale on the other side was designed to takeover the nuclear role of the Mirage 2000N as well, that's why it had not only to carry the ASMP - A missile, but must have a twin seat operational version, might have some specialised radar, avionics and EWS features as well.
AFAIK, because the Rafale will replace many strike, or recon fighters of the French forces, they might end up with more twin seat Rafales then single seat, to make use of the advantage of 2 pilots in different, or long endurence roles, which is similar to IAFs strategy with MKI, or FGFA.

hai sancho,
can you tell me how many TR module RBE-2AA AESA Radar have. I read in forum that it is around 800-900. Which is very low against ET AESA which is around 1300-1350.
 
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hai sancho,
can you tell me how many TR module RBE-2AA AESA Radar have. I read in forum that it is around 800-900. Which is very low against ET AESA which is around 1300-1350.

Hi, can't give you a real figure because it is still classified and Thales only states "compromising 1000 T/R modules", which could be more, or even less. The speculated numbers are based on PS pics, or the radar on display at some air shows, but I wouldn't be surprised if the number is only around 850 to 950 and I explained the reasons of the difference in an earlier post (#1824):

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-122.html#post1909648
 
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