India seals Rs 70,000 crores missile deal with Russia : MOD sources

[Immanuel]

Actually its this way.. S400 need is complementary to Rafale jets. Sam is always first strike and Jets second strike.

S400 SAM can be used as defensive or offensive based on the individual role assigned to it. For example its primary role is Airspace security guardian role in a multi tiered ABM shield for the country. Rafales with its omnirole (primarily i see them as DPSA) along with jags/Mirages complement Su30MKI/Mig29 Air superiority platforms with LCA as point defence.

Without Airspace Security guardian the IAF jets are less potent as eminent aerial threats and tracking can be used to counter such offensive capabilities of IAF jets. This is where S400 becomes offensive as its ability to target and take out Awacs, Drones, jets and other reconnaissance platforms makes enemy blind about what is going on in Indian Airspace (bcz they can see via radar but cant do much with any platforms due to guardian).

On top defensively it acts as guardian protecting us from hostile aerial and ballistic threats too. Why the word air space guardian bcz of its full mobility, 100% area sensors and firing coverage, 400km range of enagegment and 600 kms range of detection, all network centric warfare, a complete package

In the words of another boarder
"Planes and SAMs will supplement each other. SAMs will make a first shot on enemy airspace threats and then will go offline to change positions and reload. This time is fighters part - they will fire the second strike, covering SAMs during reload/position change process, than withdraw when SAMs will be ready to not to be shot down by SAMs next shot"

S-400 is a completely mobile system. It works in 15-mins battle Tic-Toc (5 mins for unpacking, 5 mins for aim and fire, and 5 mins to pack and get out).Pantsyr-S1 and the others like PDM (anti-diversions machines) and Gazetchik-M radar defence siuts (to catch ARMs) are very useful and highly recommended options to sustain this tactics. Thus the multi tier defense of S-400 systemm itself is formidable to any threat. Even if you detect its radar, the hostile interception plan to take out radar itself is a challenge. Thats why you see NATO crying over just S-300 itself and S-400 is a class ahead

Well about placement, radar modules itself within 150-200km range gives full 400km plus inland (inside pakistan) detection and even if we place say the 250km TEL (just 1 TEL of 48N6) within further 50km towards the border (implying the TEL is 100km from the border) the range of operations is still within 100-150 km inside Pak airspace. NOw the 40N6 can be further inside our borders at say 200 kms from the border giving us an inside range of 200 kms into Pak airspace.We can of course keep moving it between the range of 100-200kms giving us 200-300km inside range in pak airspace (mobility benefit). This implies S-400 can beat Pak IRBMs on launch route (active trajectory part) if their launch sites will be within the S-400 hit radius. And if not, than it will beat them on targeting routes in a mid course intercepption. If it still fails then terminal interception is always there as a solution (of course the N bomb in terminal interception may not do huge damage but of course Electromagnetic pulse impact will be there)

In other words the positioning of TELs itself can help us define how much inside pakistani Airspace we want real and formidable coverage and ability to neutralize or restrict. This is purely bcz of geographical benefit of india pak borders having no mountainous regions in guj-raj-punjab sector and breadth of pak as a country being limited. (no offense)

(Courtesy to gadeshi for lot of inputs and Austin)

Very true, Rafale I believe if acquired should be at least 90 aircraft as even IAF claimed recently, 36 aircraft is nearly not enough. Sure, they are welcome and will help but they don't start to bring economies of scale that a larger fleet of 80+ aircraft does. With a larger fleet of at least 5 sqds each sqd assigned to one of the 5 air commands we can have very good capabilities.

For S-400, each battalion can be spaced out to around 100 km from command center thus making the coverage truly wide spread. Usually the S-400 batteries in Russia also come with Pantsir for very close in protection from any remnants that slipped the net such as very low hugging cruise missiles, fighters or terrain hugging attack helos etc, I hope protective Pantsirs are part of the package too.

 

[sathya]

Pardon me for my ignorance

How an AESA AWACS and multiple fighters with missiles in air , do the same job ?

Are there are any air -air missiles which can counter ballistic missile and slow helicopters ?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Very true, Rafale I believe if acquired should be at least 90 aircraft as even IAF claimed recently, 36 aircraft is nearly not enough. Sure, they are welcome and will help but they don't start to bring economies of scale that a larger fleet of 80+ aircraft does. With a larger fleet of at least 5 sqds each sqd assigned to one of the 5 air commands we can have very good capabilities.

For S-400, each battalion can be spaced out to around 100 km from command center thus making the coverage truly wide spread. Usually the S-400 batteries in Russia also come with Pantsir for very close in protection from any remnants that slipped the net such as very low hugging cruise missiles, fighters or terrain hugging attack helos etc, I hope protective Pantsirs are part of the package too.

I am sure it would be (pansirs) as their production is interlinked with S400 units production. Of course some countries did try direct procurement of Pantsirs (UAE, Oman, etc). I do think we may get a default contingent of 1 Pantsir per battery as a product package part. Some thing which gadeshi also mentioned in the other forum. Similar views were there in russian forum too (Courtesy Victor)

Both Tor-M2 and Pantsir inside SHORAD domain hold No.1 place in the World for its capabilities but both are a bit different systems though where they regard to each other have they pluses and minuses. Because of the held competition between them both have corrected they flows up to a certain level but still both systems still distinct from each other. By combining the two you get the best possible damn SHORAD coverage the money can buy

The basic capabilities of the Pantsir series thus (cite):

• High jamming immunity in intensive ECM environment;
• High survivability in massive employment of HARM-type antiradar missiles;
• A capability of destroying high precision weapons, such as Tomahawk cruise missile, Walleye 2 guided air bomb, Maverick guided missile etc;
• A capability of engaging fixed- and rotary- wing aircraft, RPVs, etc.;
• Effectiveness at any time of night and day, in good and adverse weather;
• High mobility, specifically for protecting motorized and armor units;
• High availability and reliability.

The Pantsir S introduced a 12 round missile capability, a thermal imaging system to complement the optical tracker, and revised engagement radar component.

Acquisition performance for various target types has also been cited

• 36 km for a small fighter with a 2 m2 RCS;
• 20 km for a manoeuvring cruise missile with a 0.1 m2 RCS;
• 16 km for a glidebomb with a 0.2 m2 RCS;
• 12 km for an AGM-88 HARM anti-radiation missile with a 0.1 m2 RCS;
• 32 km for an AH-64 Apache attack helicopter.

 

[The Deterrent]

An interesting view from a boarder..

The biggest implication of a $11 billion S400 purchase is saturation of air and short/intermediate range missile defence of virtually all Indian airspace. That will totally negate the current Pakistani nuclear retaliation rheortic for any Indian anti terrorism action into Pakistan i.e. it will free up India to use its conventional weapons superiority to deal with Pakistan and Pakistan backed terrorism without worry that New Delhi/Mumbai will be nuked. It will also provide India protection against large scale conventional Chinese short range missile attacks against Indian airbases in the opening round of any Chinese attack on India. (primarily from Tibetian Autonomous region)

IMO, the S400 is worth its weight in gold and a small price to pay for the policy options it opens up for India in dealing with Pakistan.
(courtesy Idev)

Okay now this feels like a fantasy. Even the present Pakistani ballistic missile systems have a chance of breaking through S-400 BMD shield (consider Shaheen-II's terminal velocity, if launched at a higher/lofted trajectory for a third its range at Dehli). The S-400 deal changes things, but not that much. By the time it is physically deployed in India, Pakistan will be testing its own counter-measures.

All in all, this marks the official beginning of a new arms race.

 

[sathya]

Okay now this feels like a fantasy. Even the present Pakistani ballistic missile systems have a chance of breaking through S-400 BMD shield (consider Shaheen-II's terminal velocity, if launched at a higher/lofted trajectory for a third its range at Dehli). The S-400 deal changes things, but not that much. By the time it is physically deployed in India, Pakistan will be testing its own counter-measures.

All in all, this marks the official beginning of a new arms race.

It also marks the official beginning of timely weapons purchase from India .

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Okay now this feels like a fantasy. Even the present Pakistani ballistic missile systems have a chance of breaking through S-400 BMD shield (consider Shaheen-II's terminal velocity, if launched at a higher/lofted trajectory for a third its range at Dehli). The S-400 deal changes things, but not that much. By the time it is physically deployed in India, Pakistan will be testing its own counter-measures.

All in all, this marks the official beginning of a new arms race.

Well i am reading diverse views .. Assimilating the mood of the public and some questioning financial implications.

Actually the honest answer is that Indian Gov strategy hinges on spending of money by Pakistan multiplication over years and India trying to sustain the present def spending as part of GDP % by continuously expanding its GDP via a good growth rate for next decade or so. Ultimately its a plan to choke the spending and making Pak Gov look at economic angle and development of GDP numbers to support a defense spending which in turn slows down the spending program. This means a sustained peace for some time can be stage managed again and again.....

As i said earlier all this and we are just increasing the cost of war.. BTW we dont even know about 40N6 so its still not officially confirmed about 400 km or 250 kms (LOL).

You remember i said the same thing asking about existence of a existing or new system which can have higher apogee comprise lower range and have more terminal velocity BTW i said the same thing here

Unfortunately, no one answered whether a practically Mach 22-24+ terminal speed seen in normally ICBM class with very high altitude as apogee is something which can be planned as a countermove (along with MIRVs). Again the cost intensive and research needed with manpower and time is a reality. Again can a pakistani IRBM can have a newer tech of getting into higher apogee and mimic a semi ICBM like move towards terminal end of its flightplan. R&D needed and time cost plays a factor

Possible Russian S-400 sale to India and Pakistan's Response. | Page 16

BTW your posts are a treat to read.. Your insights are awesome.. and you dont get swayed by emotions which i see a lot in this forum

 

[Skull and Bones]

Pardon me for my ignorance

How an AESA AWACS and multiple fighters with missiles in air , do the same job ?

Are there are any air -air missiles which can counter ballistic missile and slow helicopters ?

Slow helicopters and cruise missiles can be dealt easily with AAMs, but for targeting ballistic missiles, the aircraft or AWACs lacks the field of detection to look and track ballistic missiles.

 

[sathya]

Slow helicopters and cruise missiles can be dealt easily with AAMs, but for targeting ballistic missiles, the aircraft or AWACs lacks the field of detection to look and track ballistic missiles.

Can missile go after ballistic with co ordinates from ground radar ?

 

[Skull and Bones]

Can missile go after ballistic with co ordinates from ground radar ?

Yes, thats a possibility, but most AAMs are designed keeping the optimum level of performance below altitude of 20,000 m. And the range will be seriously limited in a vertical climb.

 

[The Deterrent]

Well i am reading diverse views .. Assimilating the mood of the public and some questioning financial implications.

Actually the honest answer is that Indian Gov strategy hinges on spending of money by Pakistan multiplication over years and India trying to sustain the present def spending as part of GDP % by continuously expanding its GDP via a good growth rate for next decade or so. Ultimately its a plan to choke the spending and making Pak Gov look at economic angle and development of GDP numbers to support a defense spending which in turn slows down the spending program. This means a sustained peace for some time can be stage managed again and again.....

As i said earlier all this and we are just increasing the cost of war.. BTW we dont even know about 40N6 so its still not officially confirmed about 400 km or 250 kms (LOL).

There is a wide-spread misconception here, regarding costs of Pakistan's strategic weapons program. The ENTIRE program (from reactors to nukes to missiles to R&D to production to operations) takes a single digit percentage of the budget of the Army (excluding Navy/Air force/MoD). Now you may reason that this is simply impossible since nuclear weapons and associated delivery systems are very expensive, but trust me when I say this, Pakistan has actually managed to keep the costs pretty low. In some 50 years if stuff is de-classified, it may even come out that Pakistan's program costed a small fraction of India's (considering comparable systems only).

The low costs are a major reason of why Pakistan produces special weapons much faster than conventional weapons acquisitions.

You remember i said the same thing asking about existence of a existing or new system which can have higher apogee comprise lower range and have more terminal velocity BTW i said the same thing here

Possible Russian S-400 sale to India and Pakistan's Response. | Page 16

There is no need for a new or modified system for this purpose, ballistic missiles have a range envelope, typically from a third of its maximum range to maximum range. For instance, Shaheen-II (1500 km max range) could strike anywhere between 500 and 1500 km, and the terminal velocity would be similarly more for lesser range. BMs are designed to give this operational flexibility to the end users.

BTW your posts are a treat to read.. Your insights are awesome.. and you dont get swayed by emotions which i see a lot in this forum

Well thank you, I appreciate the gesture.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

There is no need for a new or modified system for this purpose, ballistic missiles have a range envelope, typically from a third of its maximum range to maximum range. For instance, Shaheen-II (1500 km max range) could strike anywhere between 500 and 1500 km. BMs are designed to give this operational flexibility to the end users.

If i may ask, instead of a depressed trajectory to hit a smaller range, a higher apogee in turn increases speed, friction and temperature correct? also a longer time outside the atmosphere in exo atmospheric condition. So a missile where you attain a higher apogee and compress the trajectory range to one third, wont the terminal velocity before the warhead separation would theoretically be much higher due to exo atmospheric longer duration (higher apogee longer exposure greater descent). In turn the speed changes (in case of Shaheen II full range versus 1/3rd range) versus temperature increase (again in the Shaheen case itself), wont it require a better protective shield to withstand the temperature and high speed and not getting burned up in the flight path.

Or the apogee change is limited and within the tolerance level of normal apogee full range. In that case wont the terminal velocity be not changing by much right?


An example picture just for my reference,

I am asking this question bcz a masterful trick in ICBM tech is the re entry part where higher velocities versus temperature causes such issue that unless you have an ability to craft and protect your RV, technically its just a fireworks. And such competency does require research and in house development.

So in case of Shaheen II (IRBM) the RV is capable enough to handle by how much in terms of apogee vs speed of re entry and temperature.?

 

[The Deterrent]

If i may ask, instead of a depressed trajectory to hit a smaller range, a higher apogee in turn increases speed, friction and temperature correct? also a longer time outside the atmosphere in exo atmospheric condition. So a missile where you attain a higher apogee and compress the trajectory range to one third, wont the terminal velocity before the warhead separation would theoretically be much higher due to exo atmospheric longer duration (higher apogee longer exposure greater descent). In turn the speed changes (in case of Shaheen II full range versus 1/3rd range) versus temperature increase (again in the Shaheen case itself), wont it require a better protective shield to withstand the temperature and high speed and not getting burned up in the flight path.

Or the apogee change is limited and within the tolerance level of normal apogee full range. In that case wont the terminal velocity be not changing by much right?


An example picture just for my reference,

I am asking this question bcz a masterful trick in ICBM tech is the re entry part where higher velocities versus temperature causes such issue that unless you have an ability to craft and protect your RV, technically its just a fireworks. And such competency does require research and in house development.

So in case of Shaheen II (IRBM) the RV is capable enough to handle by how much in terms of apogee vs speed of re entry and temperature.?

Yes, a shorter lateral range gives a higher apogee and a higher terminal velocity. This results in the RV bearing greater amount of temperature and stress while re-entering. But it is designed to withstand these circumstances, so that the carbon-carbon heat shield (at the nose tip) is already fully qualified for the entire range envelope. There is no need for an improved heat shield.

 

[JohnyD]

false news or wrong figure or wrong deal details..........I dont think we are gonna pay $11B for missile system from Russia...if at all that is the case, there must be so many strings attached!

 

[Jai Bharat]

false news or wrong figure or wrong deal details..........I dont think we are gonna pay $11B for missile system from Russia...if at all that is the case, there must be so many strings attached!

Russian stuff is always 'no strings attached', it is why they are still so popular as defence exporters and a much more viable alternative to the West for the most advanced systems.

 

[pkd]

India May Ink Nuke Sub Deal, Hold back on S-400 Missiles, FGFA During Modi's Russia Visit
India may sign an agreement or lease a second nuclear submarine 'Nerpa' during Prime Minister Modi's visit to Moscow next month.

However, it may hold back on buying the S-400 anti-missile system and the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). These were some of the topics that came up for discussion at the India-Russia Intergovernmental Commission for Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) which concluded in Moscow earlier this week.

Even though the India ministry of defence did not divulge any detail about the IRIGC-MTC it is believed that India held off on a plan to to buy the S-400 Triumf ballistic missile defence (BMD) system due to its high cost.

Retired Air Marshal PK Barbora told Defenseworld.net that an Indian delegation was given a demonstration of the S-400 back in the in the early-2000s, when he was air attaché at the Indian embassy in Moscow. At that time too, the Russians wanted to sell the system to India. They had hinted that to secure New Delhi, the country will require one unit of the BMD. That was to cost then $ 700 million.

And, on closer examination the Indian delegation had found that actually just to secure Delhi, five systems would be required costing at that time $ 3.5 billion.

The present cost of the programme will obviously more prohibitive. Plus, the prudence of inducting such a system can also be questioned. For no BMD system can be foolproof. And the induction of such systems can lead to a nuclear arms race because to ensure ‘first strike ‘ capacity, a country like Pakistan will require to produce larger and more sophisticated nuclear missiles.

India May Ink Nuke Sub Deal, Hold back on S-400 Missiles, FGFA During Modi's Russia Visit
Indians are requested to Hold their respective orgasms for a while.

Perhaps Russia has tied it to the confirmation of FGFA
@Windjammer @MastanKhan @Oscar