India seals Rs 70,000 crores missile deal with Russia : MOD sources

[jaiind]

This s400 system deal is 11bn$ is equal to pak defence budget...

 

[zebra7]

Yes you are correct. What would be interesting is that is India keen to cover the whole of subcontinent along its border or not as shown by the pic (courtesy vstol jockey posted earlier). So yes regiment configuration is something which will decide the true extent of this configuration for complete coverage or partial coverage.

An interesting point i was wondering was one of the components of S400 triumf series is
The 9M96E medium range missile (40 km), flying altitude 20 km, weight 333 kg. Active radar homing head

Now we know that
Akash is a surface-to-air missile with an intercept range of 30 km. It has a launch weight of 720 kg, a diameter of 35 cm and a length of 5.78 metres. Akash flies at supersonic speed, reaching around Mach 2.5. It can reach an altitude of 18 km and can be fired from both tracked and wheeled platforms. Mark II of the Akash missiles that will be upgraded by a longer range (35km) and sophisticated seeker. (The IIR seeker will pick up the heat signature of the aerial threat and target it while the microwave based one will lock on the offending object through the radar signatures of the object.)

I was wondering why not GOI/MOD concentrate only on
1. The 40N6 very long range missile is capable of destroying airborne targets at ranges up to 400 km
2. The 48N6DM long range missile is capable of destroying airborne targets at ranges up to 250 km
3.The 48H6E3/48H6E2 – The 250/200 km, target speed 4,800 metres per second (17,000 km/h; 11,000 mph; Mach 14)/2,800 metres per second (10,000 km/h; 6,300 mph; Mach 8.2), rocket speed 2,000 metres per second (7,200 km/h; 4,500 mph; Mach 5.9)
4. The 9M96E2 extended range missile is capable of destroying airborne targets at ranges up to 120 km (75 mi), flying altitude 5 m to 30 km,
5. The new anti-ballistic missiles 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 inert/kinetic anti-ballistic capability to the system.The same missiles will also be used by the S-500, which has a clearly stated anti-ICBM role
(courtesy Wikipedia)

I mean the envelope of 400km/250km/200km/120km and KP kill vehicles 77N6-N/N1 series only.

Technically this allows us to replace say 9M96E by Akash systems (MK1 and MK2 possible), that actually frees up the TEL and TLV for these missiles and allows us to carry more of say either of 400/250km missiles. This also assimilates our Indian BMD program integrated to S400 Triumf MKI system. Now whther it can be done or not can be best told by Russians only.. (But then i believe its possible..)

Parikrama Few questions on this thread, and the post of yours on the previous thread is due on me, I will respond later

1. What is the use of BARAK NG as a LRSAM or its land version.
2. People started here taking S-400 as a ABM shield, can you give me development of an effective early warning system in the country and its system unified with all the inputs from ground radar to awaac to satellites and other sensors.
3. There was some talk of extended range of akash -2,
4. Any thought of drdo proposed strb aka surface to air R77 with booster.
5. What weapons for the uav

 

[Immanuel]

Yes you are correct. What would be interesting is that is India keen to cover the whole of subcontinent along its border or not as shown by the pic (courtesy vstol jockey posted earlier). So yes regiment configuration is something which will decide the true extent of this configuration for complete coverage or partial coverage.

An interesting point i was wondering was one of the components of S400 triumf series is
The 9M96E medium range missile (40 km), flying altitude 20 km, weight 333 kg. Active radar homing head

Now we know that
Akash is a surface-to-air missile with an intercept range of 30 km. It has a launch weight of 720 kg, a diameter of 35 cm and a length of 5.78 metres. Akash flies at supersonic speed, reaching around Mach 2.5. It can reach an altitude of 18 km and can be fired from both tracked and wheeled platforms. Mark II of the Akash missiles that will be upgraded by a longer range (35km) and sophisticated seeker. (The IIR seeker will pick up the heat signature of the aerial threat and target it while the microwave based one will lock on the offending object through the radar signatures of the object.)

I was wondering why not GOI/MOD concentrate only on
1. The 40N6 very long range missile is capable of destroying airborne targets at ranges up to 400 km
2. The 48N6DM long range missile is capable of destroying airborne targets at ranges up to 250 km
3.The 48H6E3/48H6E2 – The 250/200 km, target speed 4,800 metres per second (17,000 km/h; 11,000 mph; Mach 14)/2,800 metres per second (10,000 km/h; 6,300 mph; Mach 8.2), rocket speed 2,000 metres per second (7,200 km/h; 4,500 mph; Mach 5.9)
4. The 9M96E2 extended range missile is capable of destroying airborne targets at ranges up to 120 km (75 mi), flying altitude 5 m to 30 km,
5. The new anti-ballistic missiles 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 inert/kinetic anti-ballistic capability to the system.The same missiles will also be used by the S-500, which has a clearly stated anti-ICBM role
(courtesy Wikipedia)

I mean the envelope of 400km/250km/200km/120km and KP kill vehicles 77N6-N/N1 series only.

Technically this allows us to replace say 9M96E by Akash systems (MK1 and MK2 possible), that actually frees up the TEL and TLV for these missiles and allows us to carry more of say either of 400/250km missiles. This also assimilates our Indian BMD program integrated to S400 Triumf MKI system. Now whther it can be done or not can be best told by Russians only.. (But then i believe its possible..)

Indeed the choice of missiles depends on what they wants. Indeed 77N6, 40N6, 48N6DM are ideal candidates for Long ranges. But with a full regiment, each battalion can have a different configuration. One can focus on long range ballistic, cruise missiles etc. (77N6, 40N6) while another focuses on targets like awacs, transports, fighters, bombers etc. with 48N6 and the third can focus on being the maneuverable arm of the regiment while covering our ground forces during maneuvers & forays deep into enemy territory, this doesn't apply for internal regiments but frontier regiments can surely be mixed and matched to cover our strike corps.

Akash on the other hand will focus on key site defense and in the near future will be joined with Barak NG.

 

[sathya]

Hi , even though both are different parts of war plan , with our budget which one should be acquired first ?

Which one is a game changer ? Rafale or S400
Which one do we need at the moment ? Rafale or S400

 

[Immanuel]

It appears the newest regiments in Russia indeed have 4 battalions each and existing regiments have been given additional units. That is some serious firepower I.e 64 launchers per regiment.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@zebra7 , Sir i am posting the answers together with your questions

1. What is the use of BARAK NG as a LRSAM or its land version.
Effectively its part of the muti tier Indian BMD ring. Barak’s potential use in a point defense role against ballistic missiles, a role that can be played by some of its more advanced competitors on land or sea. This capability is implied in the land-based system’s name, but hasn’t been discussed publicly, or validated in publicly announced tests.
The land-based Barak 8 Air and Missile Defense (AMD) system includes several components:

• RAFAEL supplies the Barak-8 interceptor missile, which remains vertically launched.
• The battle management, command, control, communication and intelligence center (BMC4I) is produced by the MBT Division of IAI’s Missiles, Systems, and Space Group; it offers both stand alone operation for a single fire unit, and joint task force coordination (JTC).
• IAI ELTA Systems Ltd. supplies the Land-Based Multi-Function Surveillance, Track & Guidance Radar (LB-MF-STAR), a rotating S-band digital Active Electronic Steering Array (AESA) Radar System that can deliver an accurate, high quality arena situation picture, and extract low radar cross section targets like stealthy cruise missiles, even in the toughest environmental conditions.
• The range expected is MRSAM 70Km-90Km and ER ibe around 150Km

So if you See a web of different systesm in place - S400 for 400/250/200/120/40 kms
Barak 8ER 150Km
Barak 8 -70 Km
Akash Mk1 25-30km
Akash Mk2 35-40km
AAD/PAD phase 1 (when officially deployed) - Technically a upto IRBM interception planned at 30-80km altitudes
AAD/PAD/PDV Phase 2 - IRBM to lower end ICBM interception at altitudes of 150Km

Other systems include Spyder SAM, Pechora, etc. which fill in the gaps as required by installation need or in different places of outer range of BMD coverage

2. People started here taking S-400 as a ABM shield, can you give me development of an effective early warning system in the country and its system unified with all the inputs from ground radar to awaac to satellites and other sensors.

We are moving towards a network centric role where information pooling from different sources like AWACs, Greenpine radars, LRTR, ATCs, Satellite based tracking all flowing into nodal control rooms which in turn are spokes to the main core. At present we are yet to integrate it completely and thus, each of the systems are not cohesively under one network center control. We are still at least 3-5 years away before every system along with Military satellite and Gapan GPS full enablement is there.

Originally our DRDO BMD envisioned typical engagement sequence of a tactical ballistic missile would be as under:-

• Detection of an incoming missile is by radar which distinguishes a missile from satellite or aircraft, reviews its speed, altitude, behaviour pattern and radar cross-section. If the data is consistent with the parameters loaded in the system, the missile appears on the screen at the Mission Control Centre (MCC).
• The control officer reviews the target parameters and orders the Launch Control Centres (LCC) to switch the ABMs to ‘operational’ mode from ‘stand-by’ mode. Computers continuously track and calculate firing parameters.
• The LCC orders the launch vehicle with the highest ‘kill’ probability to fire. Two missiles are fired at pre-determined intervals to enhance kill probability.
• The fire control radar continues to track the target while simultaneously updating the outbound missiles with intercept information.
• The active guidance radar onboard acquires the incoming ballistic missile and manoeuvres the ABM for intercept.
• The attitude control motors on the ABM are fired for precise alignment.
• The ABM navigates to impact with the warhead of the incoming ballistic missile and detonate destroying the hostile target in the process.
• The second ABM locates debris that may be a warhead and destroys it in a similar manner.

Guidance is provided by an inertial navigation system with mid-course updates from the Long-Range Tracking Radar (LRTR) and active radar homing in the terminal phase. Called the Pradyumna, PAD has the capability to engage the 300 to 2,000 km class of ballistic missiles at speeds of Mach 5.
LRTR, the target acquisition and fire control radar for the PAD missile, is an active phased array radar with capability to track 200 targets at a range of 600 km.
Swordfish is another LRTR specifically developed to counter ballistic missile threat and is a part of India’s ballistic missile programme.
The first test of this radar in March 2009 validated the capabilities of the indigenously developed Swordfish which is an acknowledged derivative of the Israeli Green Pine long-range radar, a critical component of Israel’s Arrow missile defence system. However, it differs from the Israeli system as it employs Indian transmit-receive modules, signal processing computers and power supply. It is also more powerful than the Green Pine system and was developed to meet India’s specific BMD needs. It can guide exo-atmospheric missiles to intercept targets at an altitude over 80 km from the Earth. Currently, the Swordfish LRTR has a range of 600 to 800 km and can spot objects two inches in diameter. DRDO plans to upgrade the range to 1,500 km.


My personal feeling is that efficacy of a PAD/AAD Phase 1 with the technological frontier challenges the time to come. Even though we will suceed over time with continuous spending of money, time and human resources, the threat level and changing technology requires a minimum of systems in place to complement the domestic BMD planning. By using S400 as i pointed in point 1, India can formally think about a proper Phase 2 BMD. Or perhaps integrate that too with a later bought S500 Prometheus and in turn effectively create another new tier in the BMD.

But for now, the road is very very long as a comprehensive system to tract nodes region wise and integrate it into a national grid like system and sophisticated hub level control is still some time away.

3. There was some talk of extended range of akash -2,
Yes Akash 2 is suppose to get a new range of 35 km and has a new seeker in place. The idea is to augment and improve it with a more of fire and forget analogy. The new plan includes increasing the range from that level to a point below the level of the Barak MRSAM. The seeker will be based on infra-red imaging (IIR) or microwave based. The IIR seeker will pick up the heat signature of the aerial threat and target it while the microwave based one will lock on the offending object through the radar signatures of the object. Thats in a nutshell

4. Any thought of drdo proposed strb aka surface to air R77 with booster.
I doubt that. Even though we do have some good numbers of R77 but R77 family already has a Suracfe to Air version i think with designation ZRK.. Even an extended range version of ZRK too. I do feel it may have been a proposal by DRDO but officially may not have sanctioned or may be its Work in progress. Reinventing the wheel may not be worth it...

5. What weapons for the uav[/QUOTE]
Initially Indian UAV ,Rustom-I, developed by DRDO's Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) will initially be armed with the HELINA anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) and subsequently with smaller munitions specifically developed for UAV carriage.

 

[raktaka]

Hi , even though both are different parts of war plan , with our budget which one should be acquired first ?

Which one is a game changer ? Rafale or S400
Which one do we need at the moment ? Rafale or S400

That is a No Brainer.

1. Rafale is Offensive platform.

2. S400 is Defensive platform.

3. Offence is the best defence.

 

[egodoc222]

Hi , even though both are different parts of war plan , with our budget which one should be acquired first ?

Which one is a game changer ? Rafale or S400
Which one do we need at the moment ? Rafale or S400

Dude your comparing apples with carrots?!

 

[zebra7]

@zebra7 , Sir i am posting the answers together with your questions

1. What is the use of BARAK NG as a LRSAM or its land version.
Effectively its part of the muti tier Indian BMD ring. Barak’s potential use in a point defense role against ballistic missiles, a role that can be played by some of its more advanced competitors on land or sea. This capability is implied in the land-based system’s name, but hasn’t been discussed publicly, or validated in publicly announced tests.
The land-based Barak 8 Air and Missile Defense (AMD) system includes several components:

• RAFAEL supplies the Barak-8 interceptor missile, which remains vertically launched.
• The battle management, command, control, communication and intelligence center (BMC4I) is produced by the MBT Division of IAI’s Missiles, Systems, and Space Group; it offers both stand alone operation for a single fire unit, and joint task force coordination (JTC).
• IAI ELTA Systems Ltd. supplies the Land-Based Multi-Function Surveillance, Track & Guidance Radar (LB-MF-STAR), a rotating S-band digital Active Electronic Steering Array (AESA) Radar System that can deliver an accurate, high quality arena situation picture, and extract low radar cross section targets like stealthy cruise missiles, even in the toughest environmental conditions.
• The range expected is MRSAM 70Km-90Km and ER ibe around 150Km

So if you See a web of different systesm in place - S400 for 400/250/200/120/40 kms
Barak 8ER 150Km
Barak 8 -70 Km
Akash Mk1 25-30km
Akash Mk2 35-40km
AAD/PAD phase 1 (when officially deployed) - Technically a upto IRBM interception planned at 30-80km altitudes
AAD/PAD/PDV Phase 2 - IRBM to lower end ICBM interception at altitudes of 150Km

Other systems include Spyder SAM, Pechora, etc. which fill in the gaps as required by installation need or in different places of outer range of BMD coverage

2. People started here taking S-400 as a ABM shield, can you give me development of an effective early warning system in the country and its system unified with all the inputs from ground radar to awaac to satellites and other sensors.

We are moving towards a network centric role where information pooling from different sources like AWACs, Greenpine radars, LRTR, ATCs, Satellite based tracking all flowing into nodal control rooms which in turn are spokes to the main core. At present we are yet to integrate it completely and thus, each of the systems are not cohesively under one network center control. We are still at least 3-5 years away before every system along with Military satellite and Gapan GPS full enablement is there.

Originally our DRDO BMD envisioned typical engagement sequence of a tactical ballistic missile would be as under:-

• Detection of an incoming missile is by radar which distinguishes a missile from satellite or aircraft, reviews its speed, altitude, behaviour pattern and radar cross-section. If the data is consistent with the parameters loaded in the system, the missile appears on the screen at the Mission Control Centre (MCC).
• The control officer reviews the target parameters and orders the Launch Control Centres (LCC) to switch the ABMs to ‘operational’ mode from ‘stand-by’ mode. Computers continuously track and calculate firing parameters.
• The LCC orders the launch vehicle with the highest ‘kill’ probability to fire. Two missiles are fired at pre-determined intervals to enhance kill probability.
• The fire control radar continues to track the target while simultaneously updating the outbound missiles with intercept information.
• The active guidance radar onboard acquires the incoming ballistic missile and manoeuvres the ABM for intercept.
• The attitude control motors on the ABM are fired for precise alignment.
• The ABM navigates to impact with the warhead of the incoming ballistic missile and detonate destroying the hostile target in the process.
• The second ABM locates debris that may be a warhead and destroys it in a similar manner.

Guidance is provided by an inertial navigation system with mid-course updates from the Long-Range Tracking Radar (LRTR) and active radar homing in the terminal phase. Called the Pradyumna, PAD has the capability to engage the 300 to 2,000 km class of ballistic missiles at speeds of Mach 5.
LRTR, the target acquisition and fire control radar for the PAD missile, is an active phased array radar with capability to track 200 targets at a range of 600 km.
Swordfish is another LRTR specifically developed to counter ballistic missile threat and is a part of India’s ballistic missile programme.
The first test of this radar in March 2009 validated the capabilities of the indigenously developed Swordfish which is an acknowledged derivative of the Israeli Green Pine long-range radar, a critical component of Israel’s Arrow missile defence system. However, it differs from the Israeli system as it employs Indian transmit-receive modules, signal processing computers and power supply. It is also more powerful than the Green Pine system and was developed to meet India’s specific BMD needs. It can guide exo-atmospheric missiles to intercept targets at an altitude over 80 km from the Earth. Currently, the Swordfish LRTR has a range of 600 to 800 km and can spot objects two inches in diameter. DRDO plans to upgrade the range to 1,500 km.


My personal feeling is that efficacy of a PAD/AAD Phase 1 with the technological frontier challenges the time to come. Even though we will suceed over time with continuous spending of money, time and human resources, the threat level and changing technology requires a minimum of systems in place to complement the domestic BMD planning. By using S400 as i pointed in point 1, India can formally think about a proper Phase 2 BMD. Or perhaps integrate that too with a later bought S500 Prometheus and in turn effectively create another new tier in the BMD.

But for now, the road is very very long as a comprehensive system to tract nodes region wise and integrate it into a national grid like system and sophisticated hub level control is still some time away.

3. There was some talk of extended range of akash -2,
Yes Akash 2 is suppose to get a new range of 35 km and has a new seeker in place. The idea is to augment and improve it with a more of fire and forget analogy. The new plan includes increasing the range from that level to a point below the level of the Barak MRSAM. The seeker will be based on infra-red imaging (IIR) or microwave based. The IIR seeker will pick up the heat signature of the aerial threat and target it while the microwave based one will lock on the offending object through the radar signatures of the object. Thats in a nutshell

4. Any thought of drdo proposed strb aka surface to air R77 with booster.
I doubt that. Even though we do have some good numbers of R77 but R77 family already has a Suracfe to Air version i think with designation ZRK.. Even an extended range version of ZRK too. I do feel it may have been a proposal by DRDO but officially may not have sanctioned or may be its Work in progress. Reinventing the wheel may not be worth it...

5. What weapons for the uav

Initially Indian UAV ,Rustom-I, developed by DRDO's Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) will initially be armed with the HELINA anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) and subsequently with smaller munitions specifically developed for UAV carriage.[/QUOTE]

@PARIKRAMA Mate what the hell are you. You are the source of information my god.
Putting your name in my diary will tag you in future from time to time and please remember me.

And by the way beware I am a pakistani for the time bieng in the other thread Possible Russian S-400 sale to India and Pakistan's Response. | Page 16

Hope you don't mind that.

 

[sathya]

Dude your comparing apples with carrots?!

Yeah I said that myself

Just want to know what's our priority and why..

 

[egodoc222]

Yeah I said that myself

Just want to know what's our priority and why..

I think both have equal importance...and the government is trying hard to close both the deals...but this went through first!!

 

[Blue Marlin]

Baba padori lolz

Janab kahan rehte ho aaj kal. Whats this s400 going here, what happens to our Su35 Jangi Taiyaree !!

translate please

 

[zebra7]

translate please

@batmannow is my friend and for long we do make some fun to each other.

Translation is -- Sir, where are you been these days, haven't seen you for long, and what does these Indians talking about s400 about (I prosume to have no knowledge at all ) and what happens to ur Su-35(Since we had lot of fun in the thread related to su-35 probable purchase by PAF)

Its fun nothing serious and he called BABA PADORI -- Baba is the first name of the op @BABA AGHORI and Padori is the one who FART too much.

 

[Blue Marlin]

@batmannow is my friend and for long we do make some fun to each other.

Translation is -- Sir, where are you been these days, haven't seen you for long, and what does these Indians talking about s400 about (I prosume to have no knowledge at all ) and what happens to ur Su-35(Since we had lot of fun in the thread related to su-35 probable purchase by PAF)

Its fun nothing serious and he called BABA PADORI -- Baba is the first name of the op @BABA AGHORI and Padori is the one who FART too much.

ahh…... ok.

 

[zebra7]

ahh…... ok.

Why what happens blue Marlin, Check this thread full of information specially by @PARIKRAMA and @Abingdonboy