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India’s bid for permanent UNSC seat falters

Military ties of India and US
By Sunil Raman
BBC News, Delhi

US plane off Indian coast
A US plane prepares for exercises with India

India and the US are involved in army and naval exercises that have raised a political storm in India.

But for the Indian armed forces, these are opportunities they missed out on during the Cold War.

Thirty-six years ago, a threat by the US to move the Seventh Fleet to the Bay of Bengal during the India-Pakistan war had a lasting influence on Indian government policy towards the US.

This week the USS Kitty Hawk and USS Nimitz, accompanied by several other warships, are participating in joint naval exercises with India, Japan, Australia and Singapore.

Further east in the jungles of Mizoram, soldiers from the US and India are involved in a 20-day-exercise to expose the US Special Forces to tactics used by the Indian army in low-intensity conflicts.

For decades Indian soldiers have dealt with insurgency movements in India's north-east and Kashmir.

The Mizoram exercises at the counter-insurgency and jungle warfare school, codenamed Thunderstrike, aim to teach soldiers how to deal with the local population in a conflict zone "without compromising its strike power".

Distance

The Indian armed forces had to wait until the mid-1990s before the military leadership and soldiers of the two countries could start interacting.

Left-wing opponents of the exercises
Opponents of the exercises question their strategic aims

Politics in the Cold War years dictated India's calculated distance from the US, particularly the military.

India's overwhelming dependence on the Soviet Union for military hardware ensured that the Indian armed forces personnel only interacted with the Soviet military.

Retired Rear Admiral RB Vohra of the Maritime Foundation says that, as young officers, he and his colleagues never imagined that they would ever interact with American military personnel.

He recalls that exercises with the Soviet military were about "hardcore equipment", focussing on how to use Russian weapons.

That is not so with the Americans. Since 1995 there have been 13 military exercises involving the armies, navies and air forces of India and the US.

Limited

The current relationship between the two militaries is based on a 2005 agreement, the Agreed Minute of Defence Relations. This 10-year-agreement stresses an "enhanced level of co-operation" between the two military forces as well as defence industry and technological development.

A former head of the defence think-tank IDSA, retired Commodore Uday Bhaskar, says India cannot ignore the lessons to be learned from the world's "most hi-tech navy".

India's first naval acquisition from America, the landing ship USS Trenton, renamed Jalashva or Sea-horse, was due to dock in Mumbai (Bombay) on Thursday.

It will be the Indian navy's second biggest Indian ship after the aircraft carrier INS Virat.

Capable of long-range wartime operation and humanitarian relief missions, the refurbished ship can carry four landing craft, six helicopters and up to 1,000 soldiers.

Former vice-chief of army staff Lt Gen Vijay Oberoi says the US has a lot to learn from the Indian army. He says the Indian army's vast experience in dealing with insurgent groups is much valued by all countries. "They want to learn from us," he says.

The Indian army will also hold joint operations with the Russians this month and next month will hold its first joint military exercise with China.

Col Deepak Sharma has vast experience of military operations in insurgency-hit Kashmir. He says the Indian army's experience of working with other forces is limited to the UN peace-keeping operations which do not call for any offensive/defensive operations.

Holding joint exercises, he says, will therefore provide valuable training for the Indian military for joint operations with other countries.

But visiting US Pacific Commander Admiral Timothy Keating raised concerns recently when he said it would be in the mutual interest of India and the US to look after the security of the Malacca Strait.

The 805km-strip of sea between Malaysia and Sumatra, through which 60% of the world's energy is transported, is currently international water.

This suggestion has raised major concerns in India, not just on the left, where opposition to the US is taken for granted, but also in China about the future path of US-India co-operation.


Every training course I have been on has been a lot longer than 20 days
 
Webby bhai..I never claimed that. I am just saying that my source is better than yours...since you don't have one. Want to dispute that?

India has had many successes in CT operations and is very well experienced in that regard.

When you win then you have had a success....if it is still going it doesn't count......
 
Think and put aside your ego's for a second.........how many wars (counter insurgency) have America and the U.K. been involved in?

Heres a few....
U.S.
Vietnam (10 years)
Iraq (6 Years)
Not to mention the various wars where "American advisors" have been involved.

U.K.
Malaya (12 years)
Kenyan Mau Mau uprising (4 years)
Borneo (5 years)
Aden (2 years)
Northern Ireland (from 1969 onwards)
various special forces involvements
Oman (5 years)

Check also how many are still around to advice.

How much is contemporary.

And anyway, books don't tell everything.

Neither after action reports.

Combat and combat environment is not constant. Neither are the pressures of the environment.

One situation can never replicate another.

Therefore,the past is only a guide and not the panacea.

Those who are current and with ongoing experience are the people who alone can guide. Note: guide!
 
Think and put aside your ego's for a second.........how many wars (counter insurgency) have America and the U.K. been involved in?

Heres a few....
U.S.
Vietnam (10 years)
Iraq (6 Years)
Not to mention the various wars where "American advisors" have been involved.
gap between iraq and vietnam is 30 years. see the time lag and you think the american army did not change? Dont you think the employment of bombs by terrorists has not changed? Some lessons would not have been unlearned? Especially when you start thinking of the then bigger direct threat of USSR which was a complete different fight?

They faced one type of threat there, the type of terrorism in iraq has been going on in Kashmir for a long time. Israel faces the same type of threat but their approach is of building walls around themselves which will not work in iraq. So where is the ONLY big experience to fall back on?

U.K.
Malaya (12 years)
Kenyan Mau Mau uprising (4 years)
Borneo (5 years)
Aden (2 years)
Northern Ireland (from 1969 onwards)
various special forces involvements
Oman (5 years)

Now my opinion comes from experience of these so called training exercises.

I do not know much about these, so will not argue regarding UK. But US, in CT, I will not accept.
 
Every training course I have been on has been a lot longer than 20 days

Do enumerate some.

Are you talking of exercises or collective training? I thought you said you are a civilian. So what training is the UK govt putting you through?
I have climbed high alt mountains (Its part of what I do a s a civilian.

Even the US naval exercises are not that long!

Maybe they have too much of oil to burn! ;)

BTW Mau Mau is the same a Vietnam or the Taliban? Same tactics?
 
Do enumerate some.

Are you talking of exercises or collective training?

Even the US naval exercises are not that long!

Maybe they have too much of oil to burn! ;)

BTW Mau Mau is the same a Vietnam or the Taliban? Same tactics?

As someone who has experienced CI work you should realise that the principles of CI are generally the same. It is the application of that knowledge that makes or breaks the effort.

Oh bTW since there were a few SF and others as advisors to Afghan during the war against the Russians I think they know their enemy there.
 
As someone who has experienced CI work you should realise that the principles of CI are generally the same. It is the application of that knowledge that makes or breaks the effort.

Oh bTW since there were a few SF and others as advisors to Afghan during the war against the Russians I think they know their enemy there.

As someone who has operated in CI and in war, take it from me for what it is worth, every day was a new experience. Everyday had a new surprise.

All the books and theoretical knowledge did not help.

Is you daily life the same? Should be, if one goes by your logic that Mau Mau is same as Vietnam and so once you have knocked out theMau Mau, you could do the same in Veitnam.

Sadly, it is not so!

Books are a guide but the practical things are different, except for the cyber warriors!

If superimposing was the answer, I reckon there would be no difference between Ayub, Yahyah, Zia and Musharraf.

And yet, there is!
 
As someone who has operated in CI and in war, take it from me for what it is worth, every day was a new experience. Everyday had a new surprise.

All the books and theoretical knowledge did not help.

Is you daily life the same? Should be, if one goes by your logic that Mau Mau is same as Vietnam and so once you have knocked out theMau Mau, you could do the same in Veitnam.

Sadly, it is not so!

Books are a guide but the practical things are different, except for the cyber warriors!

Well I already know as I already have both under my belt as well ;) You forgot to mention the boredom in-between.
 
Oh bTW since there were a few SF and others as advisors to Afghan during the war against the Russians I think they know their enemy there.

Sincerely you believe that having a few SF and advisors happily located in some ac hotels giving orders is the same as controlling a full blown insurgency all by itself?
 
Thats not how they operated..........

also dont you see that they were playing the opposite role?

Edit: p.s: Its interesting how the nature of threads change. This thread was to discuss about India's UNSC bid but now we are discussing the lessons learnt by Indian army in CT.
 
Well I already know as I already have both under my belt as well ;) You forgot to mention the boredom in-between.


As a civilian?

The UK must be real desperate.

Please don't ask for a timeout here too!

Too many threads are getting closed for obvious reasons!

Like Dimension not being able to reply at the link below but getting hot and sweaty elsewhere, and as I want to reply, the thread is closed!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...7277-indo-pak-attitudes-60-years-later-4.html
 
As a civilian?

The UK must be real desperate.

Please don't ask for a timeout here too!

Too many threads are getting closed for obvious reasons!

Like Dimension not being able to reply at the link below but getting hot and sweaty elsewhere, and as I want to reply, the thread is closed!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...7277-indo-pak-attitudes-60-years-later-4.html

The thread is re-opened now

And for your information as a soldier....my avatar is in fact me......(I'll ignore your smart *** comment)
 
That's you?

Good for you!

You are entitled to ignore anything that you like. You are not from my army. And so it is no big deal.

I would advice a better camouflage!

Dimension could be good enough to reply the post in the thread on 60 years rather than ranting here!
 

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