India ran to uncle sam to force Pakistan to retreat!

[Myth_buster_1]

And Pakistan got scared and ran back to hide when Uncle Sam swished it's magic wand. If those responsible for 1971 were properly punished, Kargil fiasco, nor many others, would not have happened.

If only we as a nation stopped glorifying defeat and failed leaders, and instead concentrate on learning lessons, we might be able to achieve something. Till then, we can continue to live in Lala land while all around us the world ridicules us, and takes advantage of our plight.

Then Pakistan's entire history is full of blunders!
Who ever included east with west Pakistan from the beginning were bunch of IDIOTS because east Pakistan had NO commonality with west other then religion. Heck Bengal had more commonality with India then they did with Pakistan. How such a poor nation like Pakistan was suppose to manage another country (Bengladesh) which is geographically separated with a GIANT enemy (India) in between the TWO! Even if India was in Pakistan's position with two parts geographically separated would have also been capitalized by Pakistan by now (like if IOK was on the other side of Pakistan).
In fact the British gifted India Pakistan's weakness in form of East Pakistan which it would exploit PERFECTLY in its favor at the right time and situation.
In fact all wars fought over Kashmir were initiated by Pakistan which did not yield much result! As a matter of fact might as well Pakistan embrace India's removal of article which would ease massive liability from Pakistan's shoulder and no more would 250 million Pakistanis suffer as consequences for supporting 15 million IOKs.
Listen, both India and Pakistan are right and wrong in its own point of view. Just because British empire awarded Pakistan for Muslim majority state... does it also make Pak right full owner of Indian muslim majority land even without their consent? The thing is, Pakistan did not really earn Pakistan! It was given to us in a platter by British empire packed with ticking time blunders! like all these corruptions happening in Pakistan traces back to its origin which is nothing but a British empire virus which has infected the body (Pakistan). I can goo on and on with blunders leading back to founding fathers who were implemented by non other then British empire. You may ask why India is so ahead of Pakistan? Let me also bring little bit of religion into this, its in prophecy where muslims will be divided and their is nothing what you or me can do about this other then watch! You can try come up with best plans but you will fail! and oh, Brits also did India a favor by separating what is now almost half a billion muslims who would have been a throne in India's progression. Just imagine current India's situation 10 times worst! No trillion dollars economy no democracy just anarchy!
To cut things short.... Both India and Pakistan are right and wrong in their own point of view. Pakistan side with their point of view and India do the same with theirs. Pakistan's perspective is they are the rightful owner of IOK at least this is what Pakistani state thinks (other wise no one in their right mind would die for someone else rights "kashmir's freedom").
Now, why did I open Kargil conflict thread? As military historic point of view, I just dont like pathological liars and just wanted to share how India received a bloody nose from a smaller weaker nation and resorted to seeking uncle sam's support to force pakistan to retreat.

Are you suggesting that had US not interfered Pakistan would have captured Kashmir with just the NLI without Air or Arty support?

No silly, it was nothing but a bhund panga

 

[third eye]

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/orde...1999-kargil-conflict-redefined-us-india-ties/



The Kargil war between May and July 1999, part of the broader conflict between India and Pakistan over the region of Kashmir, was a seminal turning point in American foreign policy with India. President Bill Clinton’s diplomatic intervention in the war, and his high-stakes summit with Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, set the stage for Clinton’s visit a year later to India—the first by an American president in over 20 years—and for the warm engagement between Washington and New Delhi, which has persisted till today.

Before the Kargil incursion, the United States was preoccupied with non-proliferation concerns in South Asia, especially after the Indian nuclear tests. Strobe Talbott’s dialogue with Jaswant Singh was an important channel of communications, but it was devoted almost entirely to curbs on nuclear weapons. The focus was on securing India’s adherence to the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty.

When the U.S. determined that Pakistan had deliberately violated the Line of Control near Kargil, Clinton did not hesitate to blame Pakistan for risking a broader war. For the first time, an American administration was siding publicly with India against Pakistani aggression. The Pakistani generals who had planned the Kargil incursion, led by Pervez Musharraf, had badly misread the likely American reaction.

Sharif insisted on a summit in Washington with Clinton on July 4, 1999. Clinton was adamant that Pakistani troops had to withdraw to their old positions behind the Line of Control. If not, Washington would blame Pakistan for the war. He warned Sharif that he would also speak out about Pakistan’s coddling of al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden. The American intelligence community had told the president that Pakistan was flirting with nuclear war. It was perhaps the most important and intense meeting of his presidency. The normally soft negotiator who usually sought compromise was tough and firm. I had never seen him more concentrated.

The outcome of the Kargil war altered the substance of the Talbott mission. The focus moved to conflict prevention. The Musharraf coup that ousted Sharif reinforced the new direction of the Indo-American dialogue. The stage was set for Clinton’s multi-day trip to India in early 2000 and his few hours in Islamabad. The contrast was striking.

Clinton’s trip to India not only broke the decades-old famine of presidential travel to India; his two successors followed in his steps and visited India. The security dialogue between Washington and New Delhi has deepened and strengthened enormously. The current administration has also committed to a strong relationship with India, but is so dysfunctional that it has been largely absent from the subcontinent.

Clinton came into office in 1993 determined to rebuild U.S. relations with India, which had been in disrepair since the mid-1960s. Like his predecessor and idol, John F. Kennedy, Clinton believed India was bound to be a major power in the future—and a democratic one as well. He was determined to visit India, but a succession of short-lived governments in New Delhi and the distraction of other events kept the trip from happening.

The nuclear tests in May 1998, first by India and then by Pakistan, seemed to be the final blow to the president’s plans. The Kargil conflict changed the equation. The president and his team were determined to exploit the opportunity. Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee was equally determined to be engaging and a warm host.

The turning point was the Kargil war 20 years ago. The trajectory of America’s engagement with India was set. Hopefully it will remain on course.

A title doctored to suit the fancy of the poster !

 

[Myth_buster_1]

A title doctored to suit the fancy of the poster !

How about... Uncle Sam forced Pakistan to retreat in behalf of India's request to save its humiliating face for taking over 3 months to secure its own territory?

 

[FLIR]

Nawaz Sharif??

I didn't know he was India's PM during the Kargil WAR (time).

he was not a PM of India but he always sits in the middle of every Indian PM!!!

 

[Minho]

yes India received a "bloody nose" despite losing fewer troops and retaking all captured points, and even capturing a few Pakistani peaks. Gotta love Uncle Sam and Billy Clinton.

 

[SQ8]

A title doctored to suit the fancy of the poster !

The fact that India achieved getting Pakistan to withdraw in terms most favorable to itself is lost upon the Jingoistic ones.

Had there been no US intervention, the choices were a long bloody struggle for India to dislodge the Pakistani forces or open another front.. all out war.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

yes India received a "bloody nose" despite losing fewer troops and retaking all captured points, and even capturing a few Pakistani peaks. Gotta love Uncle Sam and Billy Clinton.

Already answered in post where you ran away like a lil b1tch
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/most...ashmir-tour-drama.649034/page-5#post-12010867

 

[Chhatrapati]

Already answered in post where you ran away like a lil b1tch

You still haven't answered what was Nawaz Sharif doing in US right after Kargil skirmish started?

Nawaz Sharif ran to US, Sartaj Aziz ran to China for support. Who exactly ran like a lil bitch again?

 

[Xestan]

When Pakistanis start to glorify our misadventure of Kargil, it just shows that we read less books and watch more news. One of the biggest successes of Musharraf as the dictator was to convince Pakistani public that Pakistan Army was giving a bloody nose to the Indians and we'd have gotten Siachen but traitor Prime Minister stopped the Army.

When in reality, when the IAF started pounding our forward lines, we lost a lot of brave soldiers and abandoned others. How do we forget that we refused to take our soldiers' bodies at one point?

The Generals at 10 Corps HQ proudly said to the visiting PAF team in May 1999 that the Indians can never field Bofors to the area and IAF wont be a problem since they have SAMs on every peak. Guess what, they were wrong on both accounts.

 

[SQ8]

You still haven't answered what was Nawaz Sharif doing in US right after Kargil skirmish started?

Nawaz Sharif ran to US, Sartaj Aziz ran to China for support. Who exactly ran like a lil bitch again?

Realizing that he had no idea what he had approved as such for Musharraf and his cabal and not having the stomach for an actual fight especially since he was getting close to building a twenty year Sharif dynasty in Pakistani government ala “Democratic” kingdom.

Musharraf on the other hand was squeamish about his miscalculation and wanted to get the US to pressure India to keep the fight isolated to Kargil which he felt could be dragged on for a year.

Alas, our rulers(both civilian and military) have the strategic IQ of a Ram. They can butt heads at a mountain all day long but never figure that there are other ways to the field behind it.. or other fields instead of that one.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

You still haven't answered what was Nawaz Sharif doing in US right after Kargil skirmish started?

Nawaz Sharif ran to US, Sartaj Aziz ran to China for support. Who exactly ran like a lil bitch again?

Nawaz did run like a bitch to save his own 2ss (and is still running) to convince US not to intervene in Kargil conflict because Pakistan was occupying Indian territory for 3 months.
Had Pakistan been losing the conflict, US would not have intervened to force Pakistan to withdraw at India's request... Does not make any sense. Its like you are losing a boxing match and the winner needs referee's support to take away points from losing opponent so he could win.

When Pakistanis start to glorify our misadventure of Kargil, it just shows that we read less books and watch more news. One of the biggest successes of Musharraf as the dictator was to convince Pakistani public that Pakistan Army was giving a bloody nose to the Indians and we'd have gotten Siachen but traitor Prime Minister stopped the Army.

When in reality, when the IAF started pounding our forward lines, we lost a lot of brave soldiers and abandoned others. How do we forget that we refused to take our soldiers' bodies at one point?

The Generals at 10 Corps HQ proudly said to the visiting PAF team in May 1999 that the Indians can never field Bofors to the area and IAF wont be a problem since they have SAMs on every peak. Guess what, they were wrong on both accounts.

Tell us which books you have been reading which states Pakistan was not excepting their own soldier's bodies?
Why would US intervene to force Pak to retreat if they were losing so badly?

 

[Xestan]

Nawaz did run like a bitch to save his own 2ss (and is still running) to convince US not to intervene in Kargil conflict because Pakistan was occupying Indian territory for 3 months.
Had Pakistan been losing the conflict, US would not have intervened to force Pakistan to withdraw at India's request... Does not make any sense. Its like you are losing a boxing match and the winner needs referee's support to take away points from losing opponent so he could win.



Tell us which books you have been reading which states Pakistan was not excepting their own soldier's bodies?
Why would US intervene to force Pak to retreat if they were losing so badly?

There's only one Pakistani book which has the detailed research like no other book on the subject; From Kargil to the Coup.

Lt. Gen. (R) Tariq Khan is one of the reviewers of the book, you can check online.

Also, from the Air Force perspective, which I am concerned about has been penned down by AC (R) Kaiser Tufail (who also happens to be the officer sent by the Air HQ to investigate Army's unusual movement at Skardu AB during early days of Kargil) and he explains in detail how the failed operation was undertaken. His writing can also be found online.

 

[third eye]

How about... Uncle Sam forced Pakistan to retreat in behalf of India's request to save its humiliating face for taking over 3 months to secure its own territory?

It’s the call for the OP to take.

There must have been unbearable pressure for the Pak PM to land up uninvited on a national holiday in the US

 

[Minho]

It’s the call for the OP to take.

There must have been unbearable pressure for the Pak PM to land up uninvited on a national holiday in the US

The timing of NS's visit to the White House actually made a lot of sense, since on that day most Americans would have been too busy stuffing their faces with hot dogs to notice the fact that the leader of a country that could potentially start a nuclear conflict was in Washington begging Clinton for a bailout. Clinton obviously wasn't having it.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Pakistan underestimated US reaction. Had US not intervened in India's favor Pakistan would have had upper hand resolving Kashmir's issue in their own terms.

I disagree with this assessment, you’re right about miscalculation but the subject of miscalculation was different.

US intervention happened because Musharraf and his Gang of Four could no longer contain the situation in Kargil.

Indian airforce had arrived and began freely conducted sorties and bombing our positions. Indian bofors (heavy calibre) guns arrived which we did not expect, they had a full scale deployment. And what were we doing? PAF was not informed and nowhere to be seen, and even if they were informed, the narrative we chose made them powerless. Our army could not commit to helping our men, because officially these were not our men but non-state actors. If any of our assets crossed the LoC in support of our troops, it would be an act of war, if we acknowledge that they are our men it would be also an act of war. So while IAF and Indian artillery pounded away at our positions, we couldn’t even support them with a fraction of our capabilities. There was also a real risk that India might open up new fronts and/or otherwise escalate.

In the end, Musharraf and his inner circle had to tell the truth to the rest of the armed forces leadership. People in army and Air Force leadership were furious with Musharraf and his gang. These grudges owing to Kargil continued on silently within the armed forces for years after.

And they themselves beseeched Nawaz to go to Washington urgently. Musharraf can deny all he wants and lie about it, but the situation was getting out of hand and he his gang themselves begged for US intervention. Later miscalculations happened in retreat, we believed the Indians would stick to their word and not attack our retreating troops but they did.

In Pakistan, Musharraf sold Kargil as something it wasn’t, through propaganda. Unfortunately our people accepted it. He now shamelessly blames anyone but himself for what he and his caused.