India planning to buy Russian S-400 Triumf air defence missile systems: Report

[Omega007]

They're inducting a even more outdated design, which has it's turret almost unchanged from the 80s.

That joke is just meant to be a stopgap!!It's a rather desperate and a pathetic attempt by the OFB to give the artillery arm a little bit of strategic mobility until the planned tracked howitzers arrive.

ATAGS is in prototyping stage, the towed program contenders are trialing, and the initial order number is 1500 guns, which doesnt cover IA's requirement totally. They require a massive 3000 guns. So I wouldnt be surprised if they do induct a certain amount of Bharat 52s, if it impresses.

Actually,the requirement for 155mm guns of different categories are higher than 3000!!But still,I don't see any reason to induct two different products of the same type to do the same job!!It simply complicates the procurement and supply of spare issues.So in my humble opinion,the logical thing to do now would be to either scrap the ATAGS project and just go with the Bharat 52 (or any other contemporary L/52 towed gun) or wait till 2019,when the ATAGS become available..............hopefully.But two very similar yet different products of the same category for achieving the same goal..............I don't think that makes any sense other than further complicating things than they are right now.

What the Army should do now in my opinion,is to sit down with the GCF officials and instruct them to upgrade the present FH77Bs to the Dhanush standard and restart the Metamorphosis project.The army has around 60 regiments (60X20 = 1200 units) of M46 field guns,just upgrade them to a 155mm L/45 standard,as a back up project till the ATAGS becomes operational.This will also enable them fight the Pakistanis (and the Chinese) on a more equal terms and also to simplify the logistical requirements by totally doing away with the need for procuring 130mm ammunition and they would also share the same barrels and breech blocks with the Dhanush,again further simplifying the operations.

 

[HariPrasad]

If we deploy S 400 in western sector we can establish a no fly zone over Pakistan .
Right? @Joe Shearer @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @levina and others

Very true. Unfortunately, S 500 is not arriving n time i.e 2016. This S 400 is a bloody beast. I am sure that india would have negotiated the best version with India specific changes.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Actually,the requirement for 155mm guns of different categories are higher than 3000!!But still,I don't see any reason to induct two different products of the same type to do the same job!!It simply complicates the procurement and supply of spare issues.So in my humble opinion,the logical thing to do now would be to either scrap the ATAGS project and just go with the Bharat 52 (or any other contemporary L/52 towed gun) or wait till 2019,when the ATAGS become available..............hopefully.But two very similar yet different products of the same category for achieving the same goal..............I don't think that makes any sense other than further complicating things than they are right now.

What the Army should do now in my opinion,is to sit down with the GCF officials and instruct them to upgrade the present FH77Bs to the Dhanush standard and restart the Metamorphosis project.The army has around 60 regiments (60X20 = 1200 units) of M46 field guns,just upgrade them to a 155mm L/45 standard,as a back up project till the ATAGS becomes operational.This will also enable them fight the Pakistanis (and the Chinese) on a more equal terms and also to simplify the logistical requirements by totally doing away with the need for procuring 130mm ammunition and they would also share the same barrels and breech blocks with the Dhanush,again further simplifying the operations.

I also agree about the standardizing, but ATAGS, Dhanush 52, are some what far away.

 

[Raje amar]

Ma

The issue was raised by SrNair, who wanted to know if placing these at our borders would create a no-fly zone over Pakistan. Your post would be more appropriate addressed to him.

Marked... Thankyou

 

[Omega007]

I also agree about the standardizing, but ATAGS, Dhanush 52, are some what far away.

What do you mean by far away,can you amplify it a bit further??They were both towed systems if I remember correct,or am I missing something??

 

[knight11]

No you dont. What you need is a radiation seeker. That is that. The SAM needs a radar to guide its missiles at the least. A Radar that makes electronic emissions, and in the case of the S-400's radar.. VERY strong emissions. These emissions will scream to any radiation seeker "I am here". The Israeli Harpy that India has uses the same principle. It simply goes low and slow looking for such a seeker.. the second it sees one, it goes straight for it low and slow. And if it is a long range medium to high altitude system like the S-400.. something like the Harpy will find it.. and blow its radar to bits.

That goes for the loitering type harpy kamikaze UAV, the S-400 system's radar could be interlinked with 2-3 Radar and 4-6 battery of the SAM all working as a single system. You distroy one radar but still 2 radars are working and feeding the data.
Now in case of war to avoid the anti-radiation attack, the radar are radiating only for sometime and more of in listening mode. So when you fire Mar-1 one missile it gets attracted toward the radiating source, but at the middle of it the radar stops radiating, so the missile continues to fly toward the last location. If the time period of the radar in silent mode is substantially more the missile probability to hit the target is less. For that harpy is the great threat, but the uav itself could be targeted.

Any way if you look at the S-400 which employs UHF/VHF radar and firecontrol with the element of the ABM, this SAM is the upgraded SAM over S-300, which was meant to target the high altitude, hypersonic Recce aircraft which US, and West has. Its has very long range but its range is not only for the long range attacking the aerial target but to have the top the attack profile i.e it goes high over the altitute than dive to attack the aircraft. The advantage of this profile enable to neglify the Jammers and DRFM countermeasures of the west and the US. The S-400 is also based on the same principle and its battery not only have the long range sam, but middle and short range sam missile for different target.

But don't you think that MAR-1 with a range of merely 25KMS is pretty much short legged to take on something which was designed to take on longer ranged threats.

S400 deployed at about 150 KMS away from Pakistani borders is well beyond the range of Pakistani artillery units and only exposed to PAF, which can try its luck with standoff weapons, which in turn would have to bypass Aakash batteries to take down S400 radars. Adding to that, this whole system is road mobile adding to difficulty for PAF.

The fighter planes are fitted with the special directional pod, e.g in case of IAF drdo developed SIVA pod that actually gets the coordinates of the radiating source aka Radar, 25 KM range is low but do you expect KH-58 with 200KM it depends of the aircraft and the flight profile which you take to make the SEAD mission. E..g if you are going on the flanker which cannot fly at low level and terrain hugging you need KH-58 with the strandoff distance, and if you are going with the Jaguar then its more than enough.

 

[SrNair]

@mastan bhai, you are right about locating the s400 battery deep inside India. Though they are place 250km inside and Indian borders, they will cover most of the critical installation in PAK.

After all this discussion let me assure you S400 are not for borders, they will protect the most critical installations in Ind as capital, Mumbai, ambala air base, etc. Putting them on border is waste of money.

@SrNair

Well .I was talking about an imaginary scenario .Except top echleons of IAF ,GoI , SFC others dont even know where would be these system will deploy..That is their decision after a fair ,crystal clear analysis .And it would be remain as another top secret.

@mastan bhai, you are right about locating the s400 battery deep inside India. Though they are place 250km inside and Indian borders, they will cover most of the critical installation in PAK.

After all this discussion let me assure you S400 are not for borders, they will protect the most critical installations in Ind as capital, Mumbai, ambala air base, etc. Putting them on border is waste of money.

@SrNair

 

[knight11]

Well .I was talking about an imaginary scenario .Except top echleons of IAF ,GoI , SFC others dont even know where would be these system will deploy..That is their decision after a fair ,crystal clear analysis .And it would be remain as another top secret.

What about if the Missile Tel is placed in the border and radar at the back around 50 km inside.

 

[SrNair]

What about if the Missile Tel is placed in the border and radar at the back around 50 km inside.

Then that is their choice .If they want a total no fly zone across Pakistan .They will deploy that with increase in risk.

 

[knight11]

Then that is their choice .If they want a total no fly zone across Pakistan .They will deploy that with increase in risk.

This whole speculated scenario is based on the thinking that there is one radar, one tel and one fire and control unit.

What if 3 radar at different location, 10 battery of sam tel, and 1 fire all at differnt location and control unit interliked to work as one unit.

 

[SrNair]

This whole speculated scenario is based on the thinking that there is one radar, one tel and one fire and control unit.

What if 3 radar at different location, 10 battery of sam tel, and 1 fire all at differnt location and control unit interliked to work as one unit.

I dont know

 

[knight11]

This whole speculated scenario is based on the thinking that there is one radar, one tel and one fire and control unit.

What if 3 radar at different location, 10 battery of sam tel, and 1 fire all at differnt location and control unit interliked to work as one unit.

@MastanKhan

Very true. Unfortunately, S 500 is not arriving n time i.e 2016. This S 400 is a bloody beast. I am sure that india would have negotiated the best version with India specific changes.

Some thinks India should have joined Russia in S-500 and India lost the chance, what the spec of S-500

 

[Raje amar]

Well .I was talking about an imaginary scenario .Except top echleons of IAF ,GoI , SFC others dont even know where would be these system will deploy..That is their decision after a fair ,crystal clear analysis .And it would be remain as another top secret.

There is always a chance of information getting compromise.... You done leave such a valuable asset just to chance... When its close to border the threat to the system increases exponentially.... A simple extended range MBRL will be enough that destroy the entire system..... Also now a days Drones and spy satellite images are very effective in locating enemy positions.
And they are hard to target.
Also we don't need to impose no fly zone on entire Pak, just couple of hundred km from border will serve our propose.
imposing no fly zone on entire Pak we won't risk the asset.

 

[I M Sikander]

oh the only difference is they are at Mature stage ( Rafael deal about to sign, LCA order is placed) but you are not... they are not speculated ...

No deal signed for rafale yet and least said is better regarding lca.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

People here don't get how S-400 batteries are deployed.Russian regulation is 1 s-400 battery is always protected and accompanied by 2 quick reaction short range pantsyrs.S-400 deal with aircraft,AWACS and LACMs at all ranges due to having different missiles.The QR-SAM protects the S-400 battery from anti-radiation ,PGM attacks.In indian scenario replace Pantsyr with israeli SPYDER.
S-400 does put all forward PAF airbases and AWACS at risk even if it is held back 150-200kms to the rear of the border.But its a counter to chinese s-400 purchase.It will also serve as counter for Chinese SRBMs,Nasr,Babur.Overall large range of options for IAF.
I believe one of the main reasons this fighter is being thought of is threat of 5th gen chinese fighters,and lack of progress on PAKFA.