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India - Pakistan conflict analysis - aims, tactics, strategy, results

Sir, thank you for bringing up this topic. I would love to get your feedback on this topic in regards to IAF's performance on Feb 27.

IAF has top coverage in the form of Swordfish and Phalcons. Both these assets are data-linked providing the Indian C4I the ability to look deep inside Pakistan and share that information live with all the Sector Commanders. My question is, why didn't IAF pick up PAF's incoming strike package when it was expected that PAF would retaliate and the border was hot. From the limited information we have about IAF, it does not appear that the Phalcons were Airborne during the time of the confrontation. That would explain why the IAF interceptors were having an incredible tough time getting a comprehensive picture of the battlefield. The Swordfish and Phalcons are incredibly potent assets which clearly were not utilized to their full capacity.

Where do you think the gaps were? Also, please expand on the part i highlighted bold?

Please and Thank You

Of course, Chief. I will ask questions and leave it to readers to understand why those questions needed to be asked. My questions are:
  1. Who on the IAF side had sat down and, at levels below the command level in each Air Force command, worked out concurrently with planning the strike at Balakote what the reaction would be during the inevitable PAF counter-strike? Was it all left to the ground controller, as Abhinandan Varthaman's case seems to indicate?
  2. Who decided, on the attack build-up being detected during the build-up, as it was, what reaction was to be prepared?
  3. Why was the IFF not on in the rescue chopper? Why was its mission not conveyed to the Air Defence teams?
  4. Why were our AWACS aircraft not in evidence? Had they been flown already to zones outside the probable striking range of the PAF? If so, why did we invest in white elephants, that can't work for a living and has only symbolic value?
  5. Why were only Bisons in action? Were the bigger planes flown away from danger zones due to the mismatch of BVR missile ranges? When did we get to know about this mismatch, and what steps were taken to rectify it? If there was a civilian failure of procurement at ministry level, why did we not get to hear about it?
Incidentally, the Bisons were jammed, as they were linked to Ground Control only during their mission, or that is the information seeping out.
 
Nehru was a peaceful protestor with Gandhi. Both of them simply did what they did their entire life. Protest in front of the world how they are wronged.
It is clear beyond doubt that Nehru's whispers in Mountbatten and Edwina's ears did the trick when Radcliffe bent the line in India's favour; Gurdaspur, through which the sole dirt track from India to Kashmir passed, fell squarely inside India along with prime real estate containing vital headworks. Even if one chooses to dismiss Beaumont's accusations, who did what is as clear as broad daylight to anyone who is able to connect the dots. Additionally we also know about Nehru's obsession with making Kashmir which was the land of his ancestors a part of India. His obsession made the region a powder keg besides making the lives of eight million Kashmiris a living hell. He did not give two hoots about the aspirations of the people; the only thing that mattered to him was getting a piece of paper signed. Regardless, the instrument itself was based on fraud and deceit as the date was fabricated which makes a case for intervention before accession. Intervention before accession so that Srinagar doesn't get out of hands. Nehru wasted no time in sending assistance once it was declared that the instrument has been signed and his overall conduct during the war was nothing like the lethargic response of Pakistani leaders who only sent the army in the month of May the following year after the Indians were already at the doorstep of Pakistan. Apart from that, Hydrabad was annexed through force and what followed was a massacre. Menon got to work getting states merger with India by hook or crook.

Now, the single fact that he went to the UN doesn't dryclean his aforementioned deeds. Despite Nehru and Gandhi's repeated promises of plebiscite, all they did to solve the issue was to stall talks with Pakistan. Something which even the UNCIP representatives acknowledged that is India was showing a lack of cooperation(unlike Pakistan). In private conversations, Nehru, the apostle of truth clearly stated that his intention was not to hold a plebiscite. Even post 1962 talks were nothing but a bone thrown at Pakistan. Expecting Pakistan to withdraw unilaterally without any guarantee is something which PA couldn't risk as that means that India could move her troops to all the way up to Pak-Kashmir border and present the international community with a fait accompli.

Nehru was anything but a man of peaceful protest and at least as far as the Kashmir region is concerned, he was a Machiavellian.

Coming to Jinnah, he had ordered Gracy to move a brigade in Jammu through Sialkot and another advancing on Muzaffarabad - Srinagar axis. That was before the consolidation of IA and owing to the proximity of PA garrisons to Kashmir and favorable land routes, such a move had the potential to checkmate any attempts by IA to militarily intervene. But, his orders fell on deaf ears as Pak civil and military leadership lacked the cojones. Whilst brave tribesmen, Gilgit Scouts and militias were battered by artillery, armored cars and spitfires, the Pakistani army was sitting on its behind. It only arrived too late in May 1948.
 
Thank you for contributions thus far. I will have to read them all slowly and thoroughly when I have more time.

The attention to detail and professionalism has been commendable from all of you, thanks.
 
That is IF there is armour or mechanised infantry attached to a Mountain Div on re-deployment in the plains. That soaks up an otherwise independent armoured brigade straightaway.


Some differences between IA Infantry Divisions and Mountain Division

Infantry Divisions normally have an integral Armor Regiment (45 Tanks) and a Guards / ATGM Battalion (45-52 ATGMs, with varied platforms such as BRDMs or BMPs). This anti-tank firepower is not there in Mountain Divisions due to their specific role.

Even though both divisions have an Artillery Brigade having 3 Field, 1 Medium and 1 Light Regiment, however, Field Regiments of Mountain Divisions normally have short barreled pack howitzers (able to be dis-assembled in mountains), while Infantry Divisions have the normal ones.

With regards to mobility, Mountain Division's ASC is based on MULES, while normal infantry division is based on wheels. Mules wont be able to provide mobility to a mountain division in plains or deserts.

Infantry Division has overall 72 ATGMs while Mountain Division has 18 ATGMs.

No SATA battery is authorised to Mountain Division, Infantry Division has SATA elements.

These are some of the major differences between both....it can be plainly seen that Mountain Division's organization and TRAINING, does not allow them to be used in plains and deserts....they are simply not made for it......in dire emergency, yes, but otherwise no.


@PanzerKiel and @Joe Shearer please also enlighten us as to what measures were taken and discussed by both the armies after apparent failure to achieve their targets.

Achieving their targets....when? i mean you are asking about which time?

Some differences between IA Infantry Divisions and Mountain Division

Infantry Divisions normally have an integral Armor Regiment (45 Tanks) and a Guards / ATGM Battalion (45-52 ATGMs, with varied platforms such as BRDMs or BMPs). This anti-tank firepower is not there in Mountain Divisions due to their specific role.

Even though both divisions have an Artillery Brigade having 3 Field, 1 Medium and 1 Light Regiment, however, Field Regiments of Mountain Divisions normally have short barreled pack howitzers (able to be dis-assembled in mountains), while Infantry Divisions have the normal ones.

With regards to mobility, Mountain Division's ASC is based on MULES, while normal infantry division is based on wheels. Mules wont be able to provide mobility to a mountain division in plains or deserts.

Infantry Division has overall 72 ATGMs while Mountain Division has 18 ATGMs.

No SATA battery is authorised to Mountain Division, Infantry Division has SATA elements.

These are some of the major differences between both....it can be plainly seen that Mountain Division's organization and TRAINING, does not allow them to be used in plains and deserts....they are simply not made for it......in dire emergency, yes, but otherwise no.

@Gryphon



Achieving their targets....when? i mean you are asking about which time?

and lets not forget, even the structure and organization of Infantry battalions of an infantry Division and those of the mountain division, that is also entirely different...both tailored for their specific role.
 
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That is IF there is armour or mechanised infantry attached to a Mountain Div on re-deployment in the plains. That soaks up an otherwise independent armoured brigade straightaway.

IA has plans to have all its (Plains) Infantry Div's converted into RAPIDs [RAPID (D) - Deployed, RAPID (D) - Reserve and RAPID (S)] and the divisional armoured regiment will be done away with in any case. You can't expect IA placing integral Mech/Armd Bdes (of MD's) in NE India and then mobilizing towards the western border - that armour being better utilized in (I) Armd/Mech Bdes - at least 11 of them in existence now.

Some differences between IA Infantry Divisions and Mountain Division

Infantry Divisions normally have an integral Armor Regiment (45 Tanks) and a Guards / ATGM Battalion (45-52 ATGMs, with varied platforms such as BRDMs or BMPs). This anti-tank firepower is not there in Mountain Divisions due to their specific role.

Even though both divisions have an Artillery Brigade having 3 Field, 1 Medium and 1 Light Regiment, however, Field Regiments of Mountain Divisions normally have short barreled pack howitzers (able to be dis-assembled in mountains), while Infantry Divisions have the normal ones.

With regards to mobility, Mountain Division's ASC is based on MULES, while normal infantry division is based on wheels. Mules wont be able to provide mobility to a mountain division in plains or deserts.

Infantry Division has overall 72 ATGMs while Mountain Division has 18 ATGMs.

No SATA battery is authorised to Mountain Division, Infantry Division has SATA elements.

These are some of the major differences between both....it can be plainly seen that Mountain Division's organization and TRAINING, does not allow them to be used in plains and deserts....they are simply not made for it......in dire emergency, yes, but otherwise no.

@Gryphon



Achieving their targets....when? i mean you are asking about which time?



and lets not forget, even the structure and organization of Infantry battalions of an infantry Division and those of the mountain division, that is also entirely different...both tailored for their specific role.

Of course, divisions are shaped based on the terrain & role. In the north, there are Mountain Div's with Infantry brigades & vice versa. For Artillery & ASC also, its a mix.

From Akhnoor to the Sriganganagar based formation, its heavily infantry but in wartime, everyone appreciates more infantry & artillery reinforcements, irrespective of these being plains or mountain.
 
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IA has plans to have all its (Plains) Infantry Div's converted into RAPIDs [RAPID (D) - Deployed, RAPID (D) - Reserve and RAPID (S)] and the divisional armoured regiment will be done away with in any case. You can't expect IA placing integral Mech/Armd Bdes (of MD's) in NE India and then mobilizing towards the western border - that armour being better utilized in (I) Armd/Mech Bdes - at least 11 of them in existence now.

Plans and reality are two different categories.

Secondly, please recall that the PLA in the north-east is in precisely the same topographical situation as the Indian Army in Kashmir; it is poised on the edge of a plateau, faces a frontal area of deep ravines and forested slopes, and has in front an opponent within these ravines and forested slopes and also in very well-connected low-level flatlands at the edge.

Just as the Pakistan Army can mobilise its armour and SP artillery in the low-level flatlands fringing the slopes of the Valley of Kashmir, the Indian Army needs to retain some part of its armour in the north-east to receive a Chinese push down the Arunachal slopes. The IA no longer thinks in terms of braving disproportionate Chinese numerical superiority at the end of its own communications lines with Mountain Divisions tasked to stick it out against all odds, and risking being cut off by swift Chinese advances through the ravines, as has happened in living memory.

It is also true that doctrine on this matter is in a state of flux; even while this debate is going on, India has given the Army the mandate to raise more Mountain Divisions. That is obviously a matter of some long-term importance; either the PLA should be faced on the plains, in which case Mountain Divisions will play only a diversionary role; or the PLA should be fought every inch of the way within the ravine and forest country, in which case there is all the responsibility of determining the opponent's most probable line of advance, and an enormous strengthening of logistics chains, far beyond present capabilities, but a maximum number of Mountain Divisions should be raised; or the PLA should be fought on the Xijang Plateau itself, a possibility that should not be ruled out of doctrinal deliberations, given certain trends and features that are in evidence.

For this last alternative, the type of formation needed is obviously vastly different from the other two scenarios, and nobody will prepare for warfare on that foundation unless something radical happens in the geo-strategic space. Also this last will take the kind of careful preparation that the PLA itself undertook in 1962;for nearly a year in advance, the build-up of supplies had begun (in the north-east only), some of this build-up ironically through Calcutta Port, and shipped out through mule-trains to the Chinese strong points. The PLA did not display overwhelming superiority in materiel accidentally; it was planned months ahead. Similarly, any plan to fight on the Xijang Plateau cannot depend on accidental superiority.

Where these choices dovetail with the concept of Independent Battle Groups that are being thought of for the western front is not yet clear. Will the northern front, facing the PLA, also see the introduction of this type of all-arms formation? What will the objectives be, how large will the formations be, how should they be armed - all these issues are under discussion at all times, and nothing has emerged in definitive terms on these issues.

At the end of the day, where Mountain Divisions fit into the big picture is still a matter of constant review. These were designed for the middle of the last nineteenth and twentieth centuries, where fighting on the NWFP determined their evolution and structure; these were specialist units with one purpose in life and one only. Their role in post-partition India has been migrated to the Kashmir peripheral area, and, more important, to the front in Arunachal.

They face two entirely different adversaries; one, a frugal, economical foe adept at reacting quickly and concentrating force quickly to forestall any attack, and equally practiced in mounting very aggressive attacks given the slightest opportunity, and focussed on defeating the Indian Army as its primary objective; the other, a lavishly-equipped organisation that has just undergone major transformation, has outstanding logistics, has its own industrial capacity for all types of war-fighting equipment, but is lothe to give battle because its entire concentration is on its own sea-coast, facing a breakaway province and an aggressive superpower.

Very clearly, there will be changes in the role and responsibilities of Mountain Division, and it may not be that all Mountain Divisions are identical. It may well be that, like Independent Battle Groups, these formations or their successors are organised around a central tactical and grand tactical objective, distinct for each Mountain Division, aggregated into strategic objectives at a higher level. It may be expected that the nomenclature will be retained but the cross-section of each formation is different, and they are each unique.

Above all, it needs to be borne in mind that the Pakistan Army is not the only thing in the mind of the Indian COAS as he shaves in the morning; he has other headaches as well. Secondly, whatever he may decide, after long and serious thought, in close consultation with other military leaders, the civilian decision-makers have their own time-frames and these do not always lead to successful outcomes. General Sunderji found this out to his cost, and each successive Chief has worried about initiating change and being unable to see it through, leaving his institution precariously poised between two stools.

@jbgt90
 
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I always believe that Gen Sundarji and Arun Singh were on one side....the side which wanted war.....rest everyone was on the other side.....
They were of one mind , its the best way to describe it . But the PM was of a different mindset , he did not want war as he wanted to revive the economy and bring India into a new age , If you see Rajeevs tenure , you will see he was the one to bring the IT sector and the telecom sector to India during his time . A war would have set us back by at least a decade .

Plans and reality are two different categories.

Secondly, please recall that the PLA in the north-east is in precisely the same topographical situation as the Indian Army in Kashmir; it is poised on the edge of a plateau, faces a frontal area of deep ravines and forested slopes, and has in front an opponent within these ravines and forested slopes and also in very well-connected low-level flatlands at the edge.

Just as the Pakistan Army can mobilise its armour and SP artillery in the low-level flatlands fringing the slopes of the Valley of Kashmir, the Indian Army needs to retain some part of its armour in the north-east to receive a Chinese push down the Arunachal slopes. The IA no longer thinks in terms of braving disproportionate Chinese numerical superiority at the end of its own communications lines with Mountain Divisions tasked to stick it out against all odds, and risking being cut off by swift Chinese advances through the ravines, as has happened in living memory.

It is also true that doctrine on this matter is in a state of flux; even while this debate is going on, India has given the Army the mandate to raise more Mountain Divisions. That is obviously a matter of some long-term importance; either the PLA should be faced on the plains, in which case Mountain Divisions will play only a diversionary role; or the PLA should be fought every inch of the way within the ravine and forest country, in which case there is all the responsibility of determining the opponent's most probable line of advance, and an enormous strengthening of logistics chains, far beyond present capabilities, but a maximum number of Mountain Divisions should be raised; or the PLA should be fought on the Xijang Plateau itself, a possibility that should not be ruled out of doctrinal deliberations, given certain trends and features that are in evidence.

For this last alternative, the type of formation needed is obviously vastly different from the other two scenarios, and nobody will prepare for warfare on that foundation unless something radical happens in the geo-strategic space. Also this last will take the kind of careful preparation that the PLA itself undertook in 1962;for nearly a year in advance, the build-up of supplies had begun (in the north-east only), some of this build-up ironically through Calcutta Port, and shipped out through mule-trains to the Chinese strong points. The PLA did not display overwhelming superiority in materiel accidentally; it was planned months ahead. Similarly, any plan to fight on the Xijang Plateau cannot depend on accidental superiority.

Where these choices dovetail with the concept of Independent Battle Groups that are being thought of for the western front is not yet clear. Will the northern front, facing the PLA, also see the introduction of this type of all-arms formation? What will the objectives be, how large will the formations be, how should they be armed - all these issues are under discussion at all times, and nothing has emerged in definitive terms on these issues.

At the end of the day, where Mountain Divisions fit into the big picture is still a matter of constant review. These were designed for the middle of the last nineteenth and twentieth centuries, where fighting on the NWFP determined their evolution and structure; these were specialist units with one purpose in life and one only. Their role in post-partition India has been migrated to the Kashmir peripheral area, and, more important, to the front in Arunachal.

They face two entirely different adversaries; one, a frugal, economical foe adept at reacting quickly and concentrating force quickly to forestall any attack, and equally practiced in mounting very aggressive attacks given the slightest opportunity, and focussed on defeating the Indian Army as its primary objective; the other, a lavishly-equipped organisation that has just undergone major transformation, has outstanding logistics, has its own industrial capacity for all types of war-fighting equipment, but is lothe to give battle because its entire concentration is on its own sea-coast, facing a breakaway province and an aggressive superpower.

Very clearly, there will be changes in the role and responsibilities of Mountain Division, and it may not be that all Mountain Divisions are identical. It may well be that, like Independent Battle Groups, these formations or their successors are organised around a central tactical and grand tactical objective, distinct for each Mountain Division, aggregated into strategic objectives at a higher level. It may be expected that the nomenclature will be retained but the cross-section of each formation is different, and they are each unique.

Above all, it needs to be borne in mind that the Pakistan Army is not the only thing in the mind of the Indian COAS as he shaves in the morning; he has other headaches as well. Secondly, whatever he may decide, after long and serious thought, in close consultation with other military leaders, the civilian decision-makers have their own time-frames and these do not always lead to successful outcomes. General Sunderji found this out to his cost, and each successive Chief has worried about initiating change and being unable to see it through, leaving his institution precariously poised between two stools.

@jbgt90
For some reasons i do not seem to be getting notifications .
 
They were of one mind , its the best way to describe it . But the PM was of a different mindset , he did not want war as he wanted to revive the economy and bring India into a new age , If you see Rajeevs tenure , you will see he was the one to bring the IT sector and the telecom sector to India during his time . A war would have set us back by at least a decade .


For some reasons i do not seem to be getting notifications .

I was trying to reach you to run that post past you, before posting it but couldn't get you on the phone. Are you back?

Have you read @PanzerKiel's summary posts?

Also please see #49, and #51. In #51, I wasn't able to fit in the Mountain Strike Corps conceptually; it simply doesn't fit. What is its role supposed to be?

In #46, responding to @notorious_eagle, did I get the details correct?
 
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Plans and reality are two different categories.

Secondly, please recall that the PLA in the north-east is in precisely the same topographical situation as the Indian Army in Kashmir; it is poised on the edge of a plateau, faces a frontal area of deep ravines and forested slopes, and has in front an opponent within these ravines and forested slopes and also in very well-connected low-level flatlands at the edge.

Just as the Pakistan Army can mobilise its armour and SP artillery in the low-level flatlands fringing the slopes of the Valley of Kashmir, the Indian Army needs to retain some part of its armour in the north-east to receive a Chinese push down the Arunachal slopes. The IA no longer thinks in terms of braving disproportionate Chinese numerical superiority at the end of its own communications lines with Mountain Divisions tasked to stick it out against all odds, and risking being cut off by swift Chinese advances through the ravines, as has happened in living memory.

It is also true that doctrine on this matter is in a state of flux; even while this debate is going on, India has given the Army the mandate to raise more Mountain Divisions. That is obviously a matter of some long-term importance; either the PLA should be faced on the plains, in which case Mountain Divisions will play only a diversionary role; or the PLA should be fought every inch of the way within the ravine and forest country, in which case there is all the responsibility of determining the opponent's most probable line of advance, and an enormous strengthening of logistics chains, far beyond present capabilities, but a maximum number of Mountain Divisions should be raised; or the PLA should be fought on the Xijang Plateau itself, a possibility that should not be ruled out of doctrinal deliberations, given certain trends and features that are in evidence.

For this last alternative, the type of formation needed is obviously vastly different from the other two scenarios, and nobody will prepare for warfare on that foundation unless something radical happens in the geo-strategic space. Also this last will take the kind of careful preparation that the PLA itself undertook in 1962;for nearly a year in advance, the build-up of supplies had begun (in the north-east only), some of this build-up ironically through Calcutta Port, and shipped out through mule-trains to the Chinese strong points. The PLA did not display overwhelming superiority in materiel accidentally; it was planned months ahead. Similarly, any plan to fight on the Xijang Plateau cannot depend on accidental superiority.

Where these choices dovetail with the concept of Independent Battle Groups that are being thought of for the western front is not yet clear. Will the northern front, facing the PLA, also see the introduction of this type of all-arms formation? What will the objectives be, how large will the formations be, how should they be armed - all these issues are under discussion at all times, and nothing has emerged in definitive terms on these issues.

At the end of the day, where Mountain Divisions fit into the big picture is still a matter of constant review. These were designed for the middle of the last nineteenth and twentieth centuries, where fighting on the NWFP determined their evolution and structure; these were specialist units with one purpose in life and one only. Their role in post-partition India has been migrated to the Kashmir peripheral area, and, more important, to the front in Arunachal.

They face two entirely different adversaries; one, a frugal, economical foe adept at reacting quickly and concentrating force quickly to forestall any attack, and equally practiced in mounting very aggressive attacks given the slightest opportunity, and focussed on defeating the Indian Army as its primary objective; the other, a lavishly-equipped organisation that has just undergone major transformation, has outstanding logistics, has its own industrial capacity for all types of war-fighting equipment, but is lothe to give battle because its entire concentration is on its own sea-coast, facing a breakaway province and an aggressive superpower.

Very clearly, there will be changes in the role and responsibilities of Mountain Division, and it may not be that all Mountain Divisions are identical. It may well be that, like Independent Battle Groups, these formations or their successors are organised around a central tactical and grand tactical objective, distinct for each Mountain Division, aggregated into strategic objectives at a higher level. It may be expected that the nomenclature will be retained but the cross-section of each formation is different, and they are each unique.

Above all, it needs to be borne in mind that the Pakistan Army is not the only thing in the mind of the Indian COAS as he shaves in the morning; he has other headaches as well. Secondly, whatever he may decide, after long and serious thought, in close consultation with other military leaders, the civilian decision-makers have their own time-frames and these do not always lead to successful outcomes. General Sunderji found this out to his cost, and each successive Chief has worried about initiating change and being unable to see it through, leaving his institution precariously poised between two stools.

@jbgt90
...
Of course, there is a reason that now, there is a very sizeable armor component in the barren fringes of 14 Corps.

I was trying to reach you to run that post past you, before posting it but couldn't get you on the phone. Are you back?

Have you read @PanzerKiel's summary posts?

Also please see #49, and #51. In #51, I wasn't able to fit in the Mountain Strike Corps conceptually; it simply doesn't fit. What is its role supposed to be?

In #46, responding to @notorious_eagle, did I get the details correct?

Mountain strike Corps, is raising.... Another interesting topic...

I was trying to reach you to run that post past you, before posting it but couldn't get you on the phone. Are you back?

Have you read @PanzerKiel's summary posts?

Also please see #49, and #51. In #51, I wasn't able to fit in the Mountain Strike Corps conceptually; it simply doesn't fit. What is its role supposed to be?

In #46, responding to @notorious_eagle, did I get the details correct?

17 Mountain Strike Corps, has at present two divisions....59 MD at Panagarh and 72 MD at Pathankot. 72 MD, in addition to 39 MD, presents more options for Northern and Western Commands. Moreover, with current Indian airlift capability of 9000 troops plus (with individual combat load, and all aircraft at 75% serviceability), 17 MSC can be airlifted anywhere...

...

17 Mountain Strike Corps, has at present two divisions....59 MD at Panagarh and 72 MD at Pathankot. 72 MD, in addition to 39 MD, presents more options for Northern and Western Commands. Moreover, with current Indian airlift cap of 9000 troops plus (with individual combat load, and all aircraft at 75% serviceability), 17 MSC can be airlifted anywhere...

Possible roles can be....
  • separate offensive or reinforcing an offensive in Northern or Western Commands
  • As NC / WC / SWC / SC reserves or even Army reserves once 6 MD has been committed
Roles with respect to an Indian - Chinese confrontation are entirely different.
 
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Plans and reality are two different categories.

Secondly, please recall that the PLA in the north-east is in precisely the same topographical situation as the Indian Army in Kashmir; it is poised on the edge of a plateau, faces a frontal area of deep ravines and forested slopes, and has in front an opponent within these ravines and forested slopes and also in very well-connected low-level flatlands at the edge.

Just as the Pakistan Army can mobilise its armour and SP artillery in the low-level flatlands fringing the slopes of the Valley of Kashmir, the Indian Army needs to retain some part of its armour in the north-east to receive a Chinese push down the Arunachal slopes. The IA no longer thinks in terms of braving disproportionate Chinese numerical superiority at the end of its own communications lines with Mountain Divisions tasked to stick it out against all odds, and risking being cut off by swift Chinese advances through the ravines, as has happened in living memory.

It is also true that doctrine on this matter is in a state of flux; even while this debate is going on, India has given the Army the mandate to raise more Mountain Divisions. That is obviously a matter of some long-term importance; either the PLA should be faced on the plains, in which case Mountain Divisions will play only a diversionary role; or the PLA should be fought every inch of the way within the ravine and forest country, in which case there is all the responsibility of determining the opponent's most probable line of advance, and an enormous strengthening of logistics chains, far beyond present capabilities, but a maximum number of Mountain Divisions should be raised; or the PLA should be fought on the Xijang Plateau itself, a possibility that should not be ruled out of doctrinal deliberations, given certain trends and features that are in evidence.

For this last alternative, the type of formation needed is obviously vastly different from the other two scenarios, and nobody will prepare for warfare on that foundation unless something radical happens in the geo-strategic space. Also this last will take the kind of careful preparation that the PLA itself undertook in 1962;for nearly a year in advance, the build-up of supplies had begun (in the north-east only), some of this build-up ironically through Calcutta Port, and shipped out through mule-trains to the Chinese strong points. The PLA did not display overwhelming superiority in materiel accidentally; it was planned months ahead. Similarly, any plan to fight on the Xijang Plateau cannot depend on accidental superiority.

Where these choices dovetail with the concept of Independent Battle Groups that are being thought of for the western front is not yet clear. Will the northern front, facing the PLA, also see the introduction of this type of all-arms formation? What will the objectives be, how large will the formations be, how should they be armed - all these issues are under discussion at all times, and nothing has emerged in definitive terms on these issues.

At the end of the day, where Mountain Divisions fit into the big picture is still a matter of constant review. These were designed for the middle of the last nineteenth and twentieth centuries, where fighting on the NWFP determined their evolution and structure; these were specialist units with one purpose in life and one only. Their role in post-partition India has been migrated to the Kashmir peripheral area, and, more important, to the front in Arunachal.

They face two entirely different adversaries; one, a frugal, economical foe adept at reacting quickly and concentrating force quickly to forestall any attack, and equally practiced in mounting very aggressive attacks given the slightest opportunity, and focussed on defeating the Indian Army as its primary objective; the other, a lavishly-equipped organisation that has just undergone major transformation, has outstanding logistics, has its own industrial capacity for all types of war-fighting equipment, but is lothe to give battle because its entire concentration is on its own sea-coast, facing a breakaway province and an aggressive superpower.

Very clearly, there will be changes in the role and responsibilities of Mountain Division, and it may not be that all Mountain Divisions are identical. It may well be that, like Independent Battle Groups, these formations or their successors are organised around a central tactical and grand tactical objective, distinct for each Mountain Division, aggregated into strategic objectives at a higher level. It may be expected that the nomenclature will be retained but the cross-section of each formation is different, and they are each unique.

Above all, it needs to be borne in mind that the Pakistan Army is not the only thing in the mind of the Indian COAS as he shaves in the morning; he has other headaches as well. Secondly, whatever he may decide, after long and serious thought, in close consultation with other military leaders, the civilian decision-makers have their own time-frames and these do not always lead to successful outcomes. General Sunderji found this out to his cost, and each successive Chief has worried about initiating change and being unable to see it through, leaving his institution precariously poised between two stools.

@jbgt90

Moreover, keeping the present Indian airlift capability of 9000 (+) troops along with their combat load, shifting mountain division from Eastern Command to the western border is much easier and possible.
 
You have to give me a few moments for recovery. I've done the Bengali Tomato Sweet Chutney for the third time running, it's come out perfect, I'm walking around with a head swollen to three times its normal hat size. Channa Dal by night, and tomorrow I hand over a tiffin carrier with the three compartments filled with Bengali dishes.

Life is good.
 
Would appreciate analysis on higher-level of military organization in both India & Pakistan and how the current setups could influence war progress in theory (fluidity, flexibility etc.)
 
with current Indian airlift capability of 9000 troops plus (with individual combat load, and all aircraft at 75% serviceability), 17 MSC can be airlifted anywhere...
First of all, really appreciate you(and other similar members) taking time out to post. Enjoy reading a lot.
The serviceability has been improved considerably(It is especially brilliant for the Transport fleet, both fixed and rotary).Exercise Gaganshakti a while back vetted that.
Very heavy emphasis on our Northern adversary now, more than ever before so quick movement of acclimatized troops is a thrust area for future contingencies. Will play a big factor in Indo-Pak equation as well.
The scope of Gagan Shakti was impressive. Some of the key features of the exercise were as follows:-

• Diverse range of air combat mission were undertaken.
• Air defence umbrella to help ground forces was created.
• Long range maritime strikes with the help of maritime reconnaissance support from the Indian Navy aircraft were tested.
• AWACS, air to air refueling, battalion group para drop, special operations with Garud Commandos, search-and-rescue of ground-air crew behind enemy lines, sea rescue and operations from advance landing grounds were conducted.
• All qualified and medically fit crew upto 48 years of age were employed during the exercise.
• Close cooperation with Airport Authority of India for airspace coordination was established.
• Reliability of communication, network air defence system and software was tested.
• Combat assets, including aircraft, missile systems and radar, were tested.
• ‘Surge operations’ in which fighter aircrafts did maximum number of sorties in a 24 hour cycle were carried out. All air-to-ground ranges in India were made active.
• The efficacy and integration of the recently inducted indigenous Light Combat Fighter Aircraft (LCA) Tejas was tested.
• Round the clock operations of aircrafts like C-17 and IL-76 as well as tactical air-lift with C-130 and AN-32 were tested.

The exercise seems to have been flawlessly executed. Highlights of the Exercise were:-

The IAF was able to achieve 80 percent serviceability of aircraft and 97 percent serviceability of radars, surface- to-air guided weapons. This was a big plus for the IAF.
• The dispatch rate of combat assets was achieved up to 95 percent.
• Combat support system were available upto 100 percent.
• Excellent support was received from HAL, BEL and DRDO.
• Different techniques for repairing runways after bomb damage were practiced.
• Synergy with the Railways in mobilisation operations was achieved.
https://www.vifindia.org/article/2018/may/07/significance-of-exercise-gagan-shakti-2018
 
I was trying to reach you to run that post past you, before posting it but couldn't get you on the phone. Are you back?

Have you read @PanzerKiel's summary posts?

Also please see #49, and #51. In #51, I wasn't able to fit in the Mountain Strike Corps conceptually; it simply doesn't fit. What is its role supposed to be?

In #46, responding to @notorious_eagle, did I get the details correct?
I need to go through the entire thread Joe , right now i am not free , will be so from tomorrow for a week . My Phone is reachable but for some reason,that i can say here, we had to block a lot of signals where i am posted.
Lets talk tomorrow.
 
I need to go through the entire thread Joe , right now i am not free , will be so from tomorrow for a week . My Phone is reachable but for some reason,that i can say here, we had to block a lot of signals where i am posted.
Lets talk tomorrow.

Waiting for tomorrow, anxiously. I want to check several things, starting with a Mountain Strike Corps. What is this animal?

More when we speak.

Would appreciate analysis on higher-level of military organization in both India & Pakistan and how the current setups could influence war progress in theory (fluidity, flexibility etc.)

This is strictly the department of @jbgt90 and @Hellfire (or whatever he calls himself now). All my contacts retired ten years ago; their contemporaries are just getting their stars.
 

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