India - Pakistan conflict analysis - aims, tactics, strategy, results

[meghdut]

but as @jbgt90 has never tired of pointing out in his rare posts, this was the first of the three major renovations that the Indian military (distinct from the Air Force and from the Navy) underwent

What about this? I’m genuinely curious. What are the three renovations? And what about IN and IAF? No hurry , and if you feel it doesn’t fit the context of the thread than we can discuss over messaging.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What about this? I’m genuinely curious. What are the three renovations? And what about IN and IAF? No hurry , and if you feel it doesn’t fit the context of the thread than we can discuss over messaging.

@jbgt90

Yours!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Possibly the worst defeat in pakistani military history with huge local superiority in armour and artillery,4-5 patton regiments plus chaffees were defeated by a single centurion regiment plus some obsolete shermans and jeeps.AMX were spectators.

A sobering reflection is that Salim Caleb and his 3 Cavalry, who made all the difference in the battle, only joined 2 Independent Armoured Brigade at the last instant, on the eve of battle.

General Chaudhuri, having taken away Western Command's armoured reserve, 1 Armoured Division, and formed I Corps around it, made amends for this very frustrating last moment decision by shifting one of the four Centurion regiments out of 1 Armoured Division and attaching it to 2 Independent Armoured Brigade.

 

[T90TankGuy]

@jbgt90

Yours!

you go ahead , i am better at the spoken word. You , the-written one.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What about this? I’m genuinely curious. What are the three renovations? And what about IN and IAF? No hurry , and if you feel it doesn’t fit the context of the thread than we can discuss over messaging.

On messaging it is.

This evening.

 

[meghdut]

you go ahead , i am better at the spoken word. You , the-written one.

I’ll be much obliged if you would kindly share something here Sir

On messaging it is.

This evening.

I’ll be home early today being weekends . Will call you then.

 

[T90TankGuy]

I’ll be much obliged if you would kindly share something here Sir


I’ll be home early today being weekends . Will call you then.

Get my number from @Joe Shearer and do give me a call , heard a lot about you . SMS me beforehand so i pick up when you call .

What about this? I’m genuinely curious. What are the three renovations? And what about IN and IAF? No hurry , and if you feel it doesn’t fit the context of the thread than we can discuss over messaging.

There were three times the IA went through shifts in their Orbat , tactics and equipment. Each time the IA changed tactics on how to fight the enemy and bring about a cohesiveness within .
The First was between 62-69
The second between 84-89
The third was between 2002 and 2010 .
While the former two were driven by the then COAS and his Staff, the latter was based on the findings of an internal committee and was finalized somewhere in 2010 . The increase in the Paramilitary forces during the 2011-2014 was a direct result of this .

The IN had its epiphany during the 2003-2005 period. will elaborate later about it , May be on the PH as i am uncomfortable posting here .

 

[meghdut]

Get my number from @Joe Shearer and do give me a call , heard a lot about you . SMS me beforehand so i pick up when you call .


There were three times the IA went through shifts in their Orbat , tactics and equipment. Each time the IA changed tactics on how to fight the enemy and bring about a cohesiveness within .
The First was between 62-69
The second between 84-89
The third was between 2002 and 2010 .
While the former two were driven by the then COAS and is Staff, the latter was based on the findings of an internal committee and was finalized somewhere in 2010 . The increase in the Paramilitary forces during the 2011-2014 was a direct result of this .

The IN had its epiphany during the 2003-2005 period. will elaborate later about it , May be on the PH as i am uncomfortable posting here .

Thank you ,when will it be convenient for me to call you?

 

[T90TankGuy]

Thank you ,when will it be convenient for me to call you?

Tomorrow morning between 11-12 is good .

 

[meghdut]

Tomorrow morning between 11-12 is good .

I got your no. Will send you a sms now.

 

[meghdut]

By end of day on the 8th, the PA had successfully advanced from the line of the Ruhi Nulla into the former positions of the 4 Mountain Infantry Division, just before the village of Asal Uttar, and had been probing the prepared defensive positions of the Indians, frequently overrunning the Indian defences, but did not make a break-through; the Chaffees were thwarted by Deccan Horse with its Shermans, the Pattons were halted by 3 Cavalry, fighting Centurions.

There was another advance on this day towards Voltoha simultaneously with 24 cavs advance towards Chima conducted by 6 Lancers with one company of 1 FF . This advance was more successful, and they reached Valtoha railway station around 1600 hrs without suffering much losses.But they too were ordered back to lagger at Khem Karan.

The Pakistani attack started at 02:00 HRS. 2 Independent Armoured Brigade had moved its other components into place beside 3 Cavalry into two sickle-shaped formations between Chima Kalan and Lakhna, even befo

This was a 2 Bde attack, much stronger than yesterday’s 2 Regt attack.

Then the armour advanced, attacking 18 Rajrif from three directions in their outlying positions. A fierce battle broke out, and the tanks sought to come into redoubts of 18 Rajrif.

It is claimed that there wasn’t adequate infantry to support the armoured spearhead, and this may well be so as 5 Bde had a single battalion supporting 2 Regts. Also the ground was soggy so that stalled the armour advance and the CO of 6 Lancers was killed in action. This caused confusion among the attackers.

Only a deep penetration on the left, that is, on the Indian right flank, remained.

This attack was spearheaded by 4Cav under 4AB. They ran into the prepared defences of 2IAB and suffered heavy casualties.
There were plans to launch a second attack on Asal Uttar after the 24 cav attack failed. But perhaps the death of Artillery Commander and wounding of the GOC stopped it.

 

[meghdut]

The attack was not a success.

None of the battalions pressed home the attack with anything like determination; on the contrary, Pakistani counter-attacks were desperate affairs, mounted with fierce determination, and making no difference that losses were suffered

H. Singh severely criticised the conduct of operation by 41 Bde. The attacking battalions 1/8 GR and 15 Kumaon did not press home the attack and were subsequently repulsed. 2 Mahar did achieve it’s objectives but was driven away by intense artillery fire.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@jaibi
@PanzerKiel

Just received 'War Despatches' earlier on the 14th afternoon, and after winding up on line, started reading it.

It's very depressing; all the information that was NOT available in Praval, all the maps that were unreadable, everything is available in 'War Despatches; all that labour poring over the text and trying to fit formations to the Order of Battle, locations in the text to the map, events to the map, everything is available, in clear, crisp pictures or text.

"If only we had the Rafale now....."

On a constructive note, please let me know what I should finish off next. My inclination is this:

1. Narration of I Corps actions, to allow us to capture @PanzerKiel's additional comments, if any;
2. A note on the INDIAN CONCEPT OF NON-CONTACT WARFARE from the point of view of present Indian capability as seen in readily accessible public data;
3. An introduction to counter-insurgency operations in South Asia.

 

[Paro_Peagus]

There were three times the IA went through shifts in their Orbat , tactics and equipment. Each time the IA changed tactics on how to fight the enemy and bring about a cohesiveness within .
The First was between 62-69
The second between 84-89
The third was between 2002 and 2010 .
While the former two were driven by the then COAS and his Staff, the latter was based on the findings of an internal committee and was finalized somewhere in 2010 . The increase in the Paramilitary forces during the 2011-2014 was a direct result of this .

The IN had its epiphany during the 2003-2005 period. will elaborate later about it , May be on the PH as i am uncomfortable posting here .

@Joe Shearer can you write more on this. Based on your discussions if possible.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer can you write more on this. Based on your discussions if possible.

Well....perhaps. Frankly, I am hesitant. There are two reasons for hesitating.

Let me think about it, please.

Meanwhile, I have THREE tails to chase just now. So it has to be fitted in somewhere

PS: Fitted in at the tail end, I hasten to reassure you.