India, Pakistan and the Battle for Afghanistan

[jinxeD_girl]

There is a reason why Pakistan is so heavily investing in Afghanistan while its people are selling themselves for prostitutions in Hera mandi's in Lahore and Karachi, ask yourself why?

All those prostitutes you are talking about who are selling themselves in Pakistan are probably Afghans and Iranians.

 

[jeypore]

As for the border, neither Pakistan nor Afghanistan had a great interest in regulating the border. So long as Afghanistan was stable, there was minimal risk with having that unregulated open border. It was with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the subsequent instability and millions of refugees, drugs, weapons and crime that the unregulated border became an issue.

And this is the part I really like about you AGNO, where we are talking about current issue about the border, you give a great examples of history of how borders issues becomes so important.

So my question becomes, in past because of drugs, weapons, and crimes and what not, there had to be a great military presences around the border to do so.. So prelude to such security measures, how did Osama escape into Pakistanie Territory?

 

[jeypore]

The Americans are welcome to enforce the borders from the Afghan side, .

Again, I am saying, Let the Americans (NATO) enforce the border from Pakistan side, really what is there to hide regarding this......

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As long as they admit the point was wrong, I'm good.

Actually we argue quite well in favor of the points I made earlier.

Didn't Pakistani Army surrender to like 10-20 Talibans? According to Imran Khan, they did.

Indeed, and we are making them pay are we not.

We honored the peace agreements we entered into and the the Taliban did not. As you can see, Baitullah, Halkimullah, Qari Mehsud and the rest of the TTP gang are being made to pay for their terrorism now.

I know you are far more educated then that, don't use media to propagate a brighter image. Don't hide from the stone truth, like I said before, after the millions of Pashtuns that were displaced, things are not as pretty. Have you visited Quetta or any parts of Pashtunkhwa? I can assure you they do not consider themselves in Pakistan, They think Pakistani means Punjabi, According to Baluchis and many Pashtuns from Quetta.

Look at what your journalist had to say,
YouTube - Pakistan lost lot of ground and area of NWFP, Hamid Mir Vide

How ironic that you ask me to not use the media to propagate a brighter image and then use the same media to push your view point. The Pakistani media is fair. It is a media in which Baloch separatists can sit down in interviews on TV shows and openly talk of not accepting Pakistan (see the Balochistan thread for those videos) and it is a media that never shys away from drawing parallels between current events and what happened in 1971. So yes, I believe the images of the Tribes in Bajaur celebrating, dancing, beating drums and flying the Pakistani flag - its right there in full color.

Perhaps you mean to suggest that the images were 'staged' like the 'lunar landing'?

On Hamid Mir - well he was proven wrong now wasn't he.

And while I have not visited Quetta in several years, we have about half a dozen members who live in Quetta and provide first hand insight diametrically opposed to yours. And we saw the dancing and celebrations in the streets of Quetta when Pakistan won the T20 World Cup.

Similarly, we have hundreds of Pakhtun members from NWFP and FATA (who live and travel there), again with diametrically opposed views to yours. I am very well versed with the realities on the ground dear sir.

I don't care about Pakistan or Afghanistan lol.
I am born and raised in the U.S.A, I am just correcting your fallacies and disagreeing with what I see as propaganda. You are attempting to paint a pretty image and are hiding what really happens in Pakistan.
All I care for is peace for the two nations.


Pashtuns are welcoming the Pakistan army? You must be kidding me. That is simply ridiculous, They are celebrating because they are being tortured? They are celebrating because they are victims of exoneration's? cmon now, stop with the asinine comments.

The only fallacies so far have been yours, as indicated quite clearly with that video.

The people of FATA are celebrating the arrival of the Pakistani State and the Pakistani Army, heralding the defeat of the Taliban. It is clear. If you have concrete evidence debunking that video we can talk, otherwise there is nothing more to say here.

Because Pakistan is not capable of stopping it, Its not an easy task.

We are not interested in stopping provided we can keep the 'unwanted elements' out to a certain degree.

Once again, It was and is a failure. I mean, how many thousand rupees does it cost to make one lol? With the help of bribe, everything is possible in your country.

Why is it a failure? Can you provide some facts or stats supporting your position here?

Who said Afghanistan is discriminating? Do you mean Pakistan is discriminating?

You said Pashtun's can get across into Afghanistan with no ID while non-Pashtun cannot. Isn't that discrimination on the part of Afghanistan? Pakistan, as I have already pointed out, is implementing ID's for both Pashtun and non-Pashtun.

It is clear that you have not visited Pakistan in a long time or you perhaps never visited the Pashtun heartlands. No one is generalizing, its just the stone truth which is apparently hard to swallow for you.

Don't assume that which you have no knowledge of - it is not I who is refusing to accept video evidence debunking his claims. So far you have provided nothing but unsubstantiated opinion.

Once again, the above is amusing. I honestly wish and hope they are happy but I know the truth, Stop with the media nonsense.

Right, the cameras and reporters are all lying, but only you, the Great One, knows this secret and hidden truth.

Spare me the BS please.

Then why is it so butt-hurt that India is in Afghanistan's soil? Try telling that to General Kayani, he will broadly explain why Afghanistan is so important.

You have an obsession with Butt's hurting or something, since this phrase makes its way into your posts quite frequently.

We have issues with India's involvement becasue we do not trust the government of Afghanistan. We do not believe it will respect Pakistani territorial integrity or sovereignty and will act as a hostile and aggressor state. And while Afghanistan poses no military risk, it will nonetheless require resources to deal with were it to embark on military adventures against Pakistan, and we'd rather not expend resources spanking Afghan *** to drill the point home that they have no chance in hell of successfully attacking Pakistan over the Hindukush - the terrain would be a nightmare for any military planner looking at deploying an offensive force across those mountains.

Cmon now, are you checking the news recently? Pakistan is quite upset that India is training the ANA. Be serious now, Stop hiding from the truth which it seems like so far you are.

From what I have read, India is not extensively training the ANA, and we made clear that we do not want them to increase their involvement for the reasons mentioned above.

It is Pakistan that is upset and its Pakistan that is messing with Afghan affairs for its interest. It makes sense why Pakistan would be giving donations to Afghanistan when Pakistan itself is a mess and has tons of problems as its own, After all, its a 3rd world country. Pakistan is doing what it is in Afghanistan because a unfriendly Afghanistan is pure harm for Pakistan. Like I said before, Anyone with a political background would understand why Pakistan is so nervous of Indian influence in Afghan soil.

By that yardstick why is India investing a billion or so in Afghanistan when it has hundreds of millions of impoverished Indians and millions of sex workers?

A little investment today to keep Afghan madness away tomorrow. But even if it did not, Afghanistan is in no position to be a military threat to Pakistan. We would just prefer to do whatever we can to avoid defeating Afghanistan militarily in case Afghanistan decided to attack.

And why is Afghanistan unfriendly to Pakistan? Why has it been unfriendly to Pakistan historically? Pakistan is not budging on the Durand, and Afghanistan has no case legally to argue that the border should be re-demarcated.

Afghanistan needs to learn to live with Pakistan, and not continuously seek to attack it and destabilize it.

At this point dear, you are not bringing anything new to the table, no disrespect but you are repeating yourself constantly without any new material.

So long as you keep repeating the same old flawed lines and opinions you will get the same rebuttals.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Again, I am saying, Let the Americans (NATO) enforce the border from Pakistan side, really what is there to hide regarding this......

They can enforce it from the Afghan side, they are already there, what is there to hide on that side?

Or is there some sort of magic teleportation device on the Pakistani side that the Americans have to guard?

They should be able to guard it perfectly well from the Afghan side, it should make no difference. We have 800+ posts on our side already.

Don't be silly.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So my question becomes, in past because of drugs, weapons, and crimes and what not, there had to be a great military presences around the border to do so.. So prelude to such security measures, how did Osama escape into Pakistanie Territory?

Because there was no great military presence there. The PA was deployed in FATA for the first time after the US invasion of Afghanistan. Before that the border security was handled by the locally recruited paramilitary scouts.

It is in addition a border that would require hundreds of thousands of troops to properly man through checkposts, and therefore is very permeable.

The US never coordinated Tora Bora with Pakistan - Osama escaped for all those reasons.

 

[Hutchroy]

It is time that Pakistan and India jointly help in Afghanistan’s development to repair the ravages of War imposed upon Afghanistan – be it by Russia or USA or Pakistan…

US rules out arbitration between India, Pakistan

WASHINGTON: Stressing that both India and Pakistan have legitimate security interests in Afghanistan, the United States said Tuesday it encouraged a dialogue between the two neighbours but has ruled out any mediation between them.

Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India "are vastly different in culture, socio-economic standing, and political development, but they share a common strategic space," Richard Holbrooke, US Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, said on Tuesday.

"And in order to understand America's policy and America's policy dilemma, one has to understand that both India and Pakistan have legitimate security interests in the region," he said briefing reporters on his trip to the region.

"India has a legitimate interest even though they don't have a common border (with Afghanistan)," Holbrooke said suggesting a dialogue between the two South Asian neighbours. "And if one country says the other has no interest, then it's hard to have a dialogue."

"That's why President(Barack)Obama has said we encourage any sort of dialogue between the two countries, and Afghanistan is not the core of the issue, but it is a part of the issue," he said.

Among other very critical issues "water is a huge issue...and increasingly on our trips, people in both countries talk about water - and overall security relationships," Holbrooke said. "Other issues have arisen continually."

Noting that the US has "good relations with both India and Pakistan," the envoy said: "It is our view that it is in our national interest to improve relations with both countries - not at the expense of the other."

On the contrary, "by improving relations in both countries, we can move forward a general search for peace and stability in the region," Holbrooke said noting that this policy really began in 2000 when President Bill Clinton went to both countries, the first president to visit either country in 22 years since Jimmy Carter had gone in 1978.

"And since then, President (George) Bush has done the same thing. And we will - this is the overriding approach we have to the issue. And that's our starting point for the strategic overview of the region," he said.

Later State Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley also reaffirmed that US has "encouraged both India and Pakistan to continue their dialogue."

"They are neighbours. As Richard just said, share the same strategic space. So we will continue to talk to both countries and encourage the very kind of dialogue we saw in recent days," he said referring to the recent foreign secretary level talks in New Delhi.

Asked if the US was playing a role other than encouraging it," Crowley said: "This is about the future relationship between two important allies. It is really for India and Pakistan to establish the kind of dialogue we think is in the long-term interest of both countries."

The spokesman responded with a "No" when asked if there was any kind of mediation at this time by the US.

It is time that both India and Pakistan genuinely aided Afghanistan’s Development.

It is futile for Pakistan to look at Afghanistan as its “Strategic Depth”. Why should Afghanistan suffer from the consequences of Pakistan’s Jingoistic War-Making Machine?

If Pakistan wants to make war on India then fine let Pakistan suffer from the consequences or gain from its efforts.

It is wrong for Pakistan to have Afghanistan suffer from its (Pakistan’s) consequences of make war with India as Afghanistan will have no share of the benefits that Pakistan derives from making war with India.

Help for Afghanistan is the need of the hour – not seeking for Strategic Depths by other Countries.

I see no reason for Afghanistan to become a Pawn of Pakistan or India or anybody else.

 

[Hutchroy]

Self Deleted

 

[Hutchroy]

1. And why is Afghanistan unfriendly to Pakistan? Why has it been unfriendly to Pakistan historically? Pakistan is not budging on the Durand, and Afghanistan has no case legally to argue that the border should be re-demarcated.

2. Afghanistan needs to learn to live with Pakistan, and not continuously seek to attack it and destabilize it.

1. I am sure that by a reasonable dialogue with Afghanistan, Pakistan will be able to find a via media in respect of the Durand Line.

The only problem I can see is that Pakistan agrees that China can claim lands in India, Tibet etc. as these areas were "demarcated" by the British. Thus it stands to reason that Afghanistan can have a similar claim against the Durand Line. I for one am against these claims and counter-claims and would hope that countries can live with the Borders made by the Colonizing Powers rather than fuel more and more conflicts.

2. It is Pakistan which aided the USA in attacking Afghanistan and thereby destabilizing it. Having said that it is equally important and pertinent for Pakistan to learn to live with Afghanistan, and not continuously seek to attack it and destabilize it.

I also find it ridiculous that Afghanistan with and Economy which is One-Seventh to One-Tenth of Pakistan's to have the wherewithal to continuously seek to attack Pakistan and destabilize it.

I don't think that Afghanistan wants to be equal to Pakistan as it has seen the effect on Pakistan in the Pakistani Effort to be the Equal of India.

 

[Ahmad]

Let the indians and northern alliance afghanis (and those who are pretending to be afghanis behind the computer) have their honeymoon.

ISI will not let india stay in afghanistan, one way or another indians will be kicked out of afghanistan for good.

You should remember that the so called alliance was once your servants and see how they truned their guns against you. dont worry, the taliban will do the same thing. secondly you didnt answer my question that how the pashtoons are pro pakistan? ISI will only manage to grow people's anger in afghanistan against pakistan.

 

[Ahmad]

Right now China is watching how Indians are doing there. When Americans are leaving Indians should pack their luggages as well. Both Pakistan and China would like to see Indians out. Otherwise I think that we'll have to arrange uncomfortable exit for you.

Right now china has got good reputation in Afghanistan, hope they dont do any mistake to endager that reputation. if you try to take part in this proxy situation, you'll be as disliked as the others.

 

[Ahmad]

lol, you know what's funny? These indians think they can stay in Afghanistan!

I would love it if india invests billions more into Afghanistan and the corrupt Karzai regime, when the right time comes we can make Afghanistan a hell hole for indians and all their $$ will go to hell with them!

like i said, indians can't beat us at our own game!

There is a famous quote by the American General Dwight D. Eisenhower:

"Never let the enemy chose the battlefield", and clearly the indians are challenging us in our own battlefield, our own game, and no one can beat us at our own game!

I am glad you confessed to what exactly pakistan want in afghanistan.

 

[S-2]

The current Afghan government-ineffective, incompetent, corrupt, inept as it may be- is recognized globally as the legitimate government of Afghanistan. That includes recognition by PAKISTAN. Working against it's existence is not in the interests of mankind. Too many others are working to raise forth institutions from the DIRT and we will all suffer for the crime, brigandry, corruption and more that's all too commonplace throughout central and south asia while these institutions learn to govern themselves and their citizens.

There is no better alternative to building progressively stronger and more stable institutions and levers of governance. Nobody encourages the intentional propagation of disadvantageous and ethnically-based governance that shall perpetuate civil war in Afghanistan. Key to that is raising forth Pashtun political participation while NOT diminishing that of others.

In the end, it is for Afghans to decide with whom they'll have friendly relations. All other things being equal, the proper field of competition for such favor is diplomacy and economic bi-lateral relations. Anything else is ignoble to inter-state discourse and is recognized as such by all others.

"when the right time comes we can make Afghanistan a hell hole for indians and all their $$ will go to hell with them!"

For pathetic b00bs like silent ninja who espouse using the dead souls of Afghans to further their selfish ambitions I've nothing but utter hatred. Afghanistan is NOBODY'S personal sand-box and you've long been discredited for presuming such.

Better figure a way to raise forth Pakistan's image among all Afghans such that you can compete for Afghan favor in a meaningful and enduring fashion that no longer perpetuates the decades-long battlefield that it's been. The Indians are there and will be so long as the Afghan government wishes so. Nobody else has a right to that choice but Afghans.

Thanks.

 

[S-2]

From today's WAPO an interesting discussion/article on possible on-going talks and their management-

In Afghanistan Karzai's Invitation To Taliban Creates Discord And Confusion-WAPO March 3, 2010

Thanks.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It is time that Pakistan and India jointly help in Afghanistan’s development to repair the ravages of War imposed upon Afghanistan – be it by Russia or USA or Pakistan…

US rules out arbitration between India, Pakistan


It is time that both India and Pakistan genuinely aided Afghanistan’s Development.

It is futile for Pakistan to look at Afghanistan as its “Strategic Depth”. ..

If Pakistan wants to make war on India then fine let Pakistan suffer from the consequences or gain from its efforts.

It is wrong for Pakistan to have Afghanistan suffer from its (Pakistan’s) consequences of make war with India as Afghanistan will have no share of the benefits that Pakistan derives from making war with India.

Help for Afghanistan is the need of the hour – not seeking for Strategic Depths by other Countries.

Please read Gen. Kayani's comments on Strategic Depth before spouting off on the concept:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...erms-regional-stability.html?highlight=Kayani

Why should Afghanistan suffer from the consequences of Pakistan’s Jingoistic War-Making Machine?

So long as Afghanistan refuses to respect Pakistani sovereignty and territorial integrity, and seeks to interfere and destabilize Pakistan as it has done historically, it loses any right ask for 'non interference' from Pakistan.

The ball on this issue is in Afghanistan's hands, not Pakistan. The day Afghanistan comes to terms with the reality of the Afghan-Pakistan border and gives up its irredentist ambitions will be the day that criticizm of Pakistan for seeking to influence Afghanistan will have any semblance of validity.