India, Pakistan and the Battle for Afghanistan

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan was supporting Afghanistan since the day it was born? Do you have any clue how old Afghanistan is as compared to modern day Pakistan? Are you aware that modern day Pakistan was once part of the Afghan empire?

...Pakistan and Afghanistan need to both be friendly to one another, Pakistan can never be developed if Afghanistan is unstable and unfriendly. They go hand and hand, The border is nearly impossible to secure since its the same ethnic group.

The reference was likely to 'the day Pakistan was born', or at least that is how I read it.

Empires have ebbed and flowed throughout history - today's Pakistan, and Afghanistan, were also part of Alexander's conquests. However, the people who inhabit those lands have done so for millenia. Pakistan can point to being the heart of the ancient Indus Valley Civilization for example

In terms of the relationship between the two nations, Pakistan was not the one that chose to not recognize the existence of the other nation and sponsor insurgencies on the others soil in pursuit of irredentist dreams. Even today, it is Afghanistan that refuses to honor the Durand agreement, not Pakistan.

 

[TruthHurts]

The reference was likely to 'the day Pakistan was born', or at least that is how I read it.

Empires have ebbed and flowed throughout history - today's Pakistan, and Afghanistan, were also part of Alexander's conquests. However, the people who inhabit those lands have done so for millenia. Pakistan can point to being the heart of the ancient Indus Valley Civilization for example

In terms of the relationship between the two nations, Pakistan was not the one that chose to not recognize the existence of the other nation and sponsor insurgencies on the others soil in pursuit of irredentist dreams. Even today, it is Afghanistan that refuses to honor the Durand agreement, not Pakistan.

The history does not fall under the "Pakistan" name, that is the difference, Afghanistan has ruled Present day Pakistan is all I said, which is true.

What he said was incorrect, Afghanistan is much older then Pakistan, therefore his notion is illogical and impossible. But anyways,


Its not "Afghanistan" who has a say in recognizing it or not.

Its the Pashtuns from Pakistan and Afghanistan who do not recognize it.
They are the same people, They used to be part of the same country, They share the same history,language,culture and now there is an imaginary line dividing them. They have families across the border, so how would it feel for someone to tell you you can not visit your cousin or your mom or dad anymore? Cause that is how it is.

In the border area, better known as the Pashtun heartlands or Pashtunistan, Pakistani government has little to no say in anything that goes on, How can you impose a border on people who used to be one and are the same exact people? A border is Impossible to impose on Pashtuns, Haven't Pashtuns proven to you yet that they do not like to take orders in a disrespectful manner and the do not like to be subdued? You don't even need a passport or I-D to cross the border, if you are a Pashtun and you can speak Pashto, you have free access. But when you are a Punjabi, you end up having to pay bribes to cross the borders, Don't ask me why, Go figure.

The border merely exists, ITS MERELY EVEN MARKED. LOL. Have you ever visited the Border area? The Pashtun heartlands?
This video sums up a lot for you,

"THEY HAVE LINKS ACROSS THE BORDER"

Pakistan needs Afghanistan as an ALLY. And is scared if Afghanistan becomes India's ally.

 

[Creder]

The history does not fall under the "Pakistan" name, that is the difference, Afghanistan has ruled Present day Pakistan is all I said, which is true.

What he said was incorrect, Afghanistan is much older then Pakistan, therefore his notion is illogical and impossible. But anyways,


Its not "Afghanistan" who has a say in recognizing it or not.

Its the Pashtuns from Pakistan and Afghanistan who do not recognize it.
They are the same people, They used to be part of the same country, They share the same history,language,culture and now there is an imaginary line dividing them. They have families across the border, so how would it feel for someone to tell you you can not visit your cousin or your mom or dad anymore? Cause that is how it is.

In the border area, better known as the Pashtun heartlands or Pashtunistan, Pakistani government has little to no say in anything that goes on, How can you impose a border on people who used to be one and are the same exact people? A border is Impossible to impose on Pashtuns, Haven't Pashtuns proven to you yet that they do not like to take orders in a disrespectful manner and the do not like to be subdued? You don't even need a passport or I-D to cross the border, if you are a Pashtun and you can speak Pashto, you have free access. But when you are a Punjabi, you end up having to pay bribes to cross the borders, Don't ask me why, Go figure.

The border merely exists, ITS MERELY EVEN MARKED. LOL. Have you ever visited the Border area? The Pashtun heartlands?
This video sums up a lot for you,
YouTube - Rethink Afghanistan War (Part 2): Pakistan



"THEY HAVE LINKS ACROSS THE BORDER"

Pakistan needs Afghanistan as an ALLY. And is scared if Afghanistan becomes India's ally.

look at what ? a "commander" whose country is being b**t raped by americans

 

[TruthHurts]

look at what ? a "commander" whose country is being b**t raped by americans

Last time I checked my country, the U.S.A is the worlds largest economy and is no where near as uneducated,****** as Pakistan.

However,
I know we Americans have killed and raped thousands of your people but I apologize, I really do. We also aid you guys, Picture a Pakistan without all the aid it has received from the U.S.A. since its inception.

Like I said, Dear Pakistani, I am sincerely sorry for what we are doing in your country and in Afghanistan.

Long live Afghanistan and Pakistan, hopefully they get their acts together. There is a reason why Pakistan is so heavily investing in Afghanistan while its people are selling themselves for prostitutions in Hera mandi's in Lahore and Karachi, ask yourself why? Because Pakistan is scared of India's influence in Afghanistan. Imagine Afghanistan being an Indian ally, Pakistan will be attacked from both sides. Pakistan is on it knees, trying everything possible to have Afghanistan as its ally, from begging to train the ANA to trying to outdo India as far as donating is concerned.

Nevertheless, like I said, I have absolutely nothing against India,Pakistan and Afghanistan. I wish for peace in all 3 of those countries, but like I've said before, Acts need to get together.


Your truly,

A sincere American.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The history does not fall under the "Pakistan" name, that is the difference, Afghanistan has ruled Present day Pakistan is all I said, which is true.

The history falls under the name of the political entity that encompasses the region in which that history took place, and under the name of the people who are descended from that ancient civilization, which would be Pakistan and Pakistanis primarily.

What he said was incorrect, Afghanistan is much older then Pakistan, therefore his notion is illogical and impossible. But anyways,

His point was not 'impossible' given that he was referring to Pakistan supporting Afghanistan since Pakistan was created, though it may still be inaccurate.

Its not "Afghanistan" who has a say in recognizing it or not.

Its the Pashtuns from Pakistan and Afghanistan who do not recognize it.

They are the same people, They used to be part of the same country, They share the same history,language,culture and now there is an imaginary line dividing them. They have families across the border, so how would it feel for someone to tell you you can not visit your cousin or your mom or dad anymore? Cause that is how it is.

Wrong - it is the political entities of Afghanistan and Pakistan that recognize the boundaries of their nations, and honor the agreements made by their nations. The citizens of those nations, no matter what their personal sentiments, have to abide by the laws and international obligations their nations are committed to.

If they disagree with the border as demarcated under the Durand Agreement, then the people of Afghanistan are free to elect a GoA that proposes a Union with Pakistan or some other arrangement under which the border becomes irrelevant for people on either side.

In the border area, better known as the Pashtun heartlands or Pashtunistan, Pakistani government has little to no say in anything that goes on, How can you impose a border on people who used to be one and are the same exact people? A border is Impossible to impose on Pashtuns, Haven't Pashtuns proven to you yet that they do not like to take orders in a disrespectful manner and the do not like to be subdued? You don't even need a passport or I-D to cross the border, if you are a Pashtun and you can speak Pashto, you have free access. But when you are a Punjabi, you end up having to pay bribes to cross the borders, Don't ask me why, Go figure.

Actually Pakistan has been rather successful (relatively speaking given the violence and opposition from the Taliban) in issuing bio-metric ID's to the residents of FATA. The problems have primarily come about from the Afghan side, where the GoA refused to issue its own ID's and then proceeded to destroy the ID's of Pakistanis visiting Afghanistan.

Now if the Afghans wish to discriminate on the basis of ethnicity, that is their problem, not Pakistan's, and reflects poorly on the Afghan government.

As for 'taking orders from the government' - the expectation is that every citizen of Pakistan WILL respect and obey the laws of Pakistan, whether they be Punjabi, Sindhi, Baluchi or Pashtun, and if they act like the Taliban (Punjabi or Pashtun), they will die like the Taliban rats are dying.

The border merely exists, ITS MERELY EVEN MARKED. LOL. Have you ever visited the Border area? The Pashtun heartlands?
This video sums up a lot for you,
YouTube - Rethink Afghanistan War (Part 2): Pakistan


"THEY HAVE LINKS ACROSS THE BORDER"

Pakistan needs Afghanistan as an ALLY. And is scared if Afghanistan becomes India's ally.

Would you mind summarizing that video, I really don't have time to watch every video posted by members on this forum.

On your last comment however, Pakistan does not need Afghanistan as an ally. We'll be fine so long as Afghanistan respects Pakistani sovereignty and territorial integrity and keeps its nose out of our affairs. Pakistan's intervention in Afghanistan has been driven because of a tendency of Afghanistan to not do the above, covet Pakistani territory and actively attempt to foment separatist insurgencies in Pakistan.

The border is actually rather extensively demarcated except in a few areas, and as I stated above, what an individual thinks of the border is irrelevant given the legal and international commitments made by the Country of that individual - if Afghans wish to change the status of that border, they can follow the prescriptions outlined earlier.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There is a reason why Pakistan is so heavily investing in Afghanistan while its people are selling themselves for prostitutions in Hera mandi's in Lahore and Karachi, ask yourself why?

This will be your first and last warning.

If you are unable to prevent yourself from flaming and making derogatory comments (about a nation or ethnicity), you can do so elsewhere.

 

[TruthHurts]

This will be your first and last warning.

If you are unable to prevent yourself from flaming and making derogatory comments (about a nation or ethnicity), you can do so elsewhere.

You seem to be quite biased here, So speaking of the TRUTH. Which BBC,CNN and plenty of news sources has reported on is now considered derogatory? How so? Are you attempting to hide from the truth or are you assuming that I am making up what I state? Would you like to see sources on what I have said?


I specifically, at least 5x said, I have nothing against any of those nations as an American, But oh well, what an audience.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You seem to be quite biased here, So speaking of the TRUTH. Which BBC,CNN and plenty of news sources has reported on is now considered derogatory? How so? Are you attempting to hide from the truth or are you assuming that I am making up what I state? Would you like to see sources on what I have said?


I specifically, at least 5x said, I have nothing against any of those nations as an American, But oh well, what an audience.

The truth would be that there are likely far more prostitutes, strip club dancers and assorted 'flesh/sex trade' practitioners in the United States and India (numerically and as a proportion of the population) than there are in Pakistan.

So what exactly does your comment about the flesh trade in Pakistan prove, other than an attempt on your part to flame and troll?

Straighten up and engage in discourse with civility or find fouler pastures elsewhere. I have nothing more to say on this.

 

[TruthHurts]

The truth would be that there are likely far more prostitutes, strip club dancers and assorted 'flesh/sex trade' practitioners in the United States and India (numerically and as a proportion of the population) than there are in Pakistan.

And America is doing A LOT as a developed nation to prevent such things, As compared to Pakistan which can not afford to do any.

So what exactly does your comment about the flesh trade in Pakistan prove, other than an attempt on your part to flame and troll?

It proves that Pakistan should improve its society rather then sticking their nose in other countries affairs.

Straighten up and engage in discourse with civility or find fouler pastures elsewhere. I have nothing more to say on this.

Neither do I,

You are power-tripping quite obviously by warning for no apparent reason. I have presented my points in context of what I was speaking and I can provide sources to back up my claims, Is there a problem with that?

The fact that I have been Thanked 10 times in 6 posts doesn't make seem like much of a troll don't you think?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And America is doing A LOT as a developed nation to prevent such things, As compared to Pakistan which can not afford to do any.

Good for the US, best of luck to them in reducing those numbers to the levels of Pakistan.

It proves that Pakistan should improve its society rather then sticking their nose in other countries affairs.

And Pakistan is improving her society, and we are attempting to overcome the obstacles we face, but as I pointed out a couple of posts ago, Pakistan could not ignore the rather open hostility from Afghanistan and the blatant interference by Afghanistan in Pakistani affairs.

Neither do I,

You are power-tripping quite obviously by warning for no apparent reason. I have presented my points in context of what I was speaking and I can provide sources to back up my claims, Is there a problem with that?

The fact that I have been Thanked 10 times in 6 posts doesn't make seem like much of a troll don't you think?

There was a very valid reason for warning you - your comments quoted in my warning to you. Refrain from derogatory comments such as those and we won't have any more issues.

Respond to my post before that warning. This issue is closed and further responses to this will be deleted.

 

[TruthHurts]

The history falls under the name of the political entity that encompasses the region in which that history took place,
and under the name of the people who are descended from that ancient civilization, which would be Pakistan and Pakistanis primarily.

I can argue that, but we will be driven away from the main topic.

His point was not 'impossible' given that he was referring to Pakistan supporting Afghanistan since Pakistan was created,

That is not what he said, You are twisting his words to make it seem like something YOU assume he said.

He said Pakistan has been supporting Afghanistan since it was born.

How can a nation established in 1947 support a nation which has hundreds of years old? I am glad that you admit its it was a illogical and senseless statement. It was quite inarticulate if you ask me.

though it may still be inaccurate.

Quite obviously it is.

Wrong - it is the political entities of Afghanistan and Pakistan that recognize the boundaries of their nations,

Not necessarily, What is Pakistan going to do? Slaughter millions of people who say they don't recognize it? Even if both countries agree on a border (Which is hardly ever going to happen) Pashtuns will still freely travel cause imposing a border is once again nearly impossible when the same people are on both sides.

and honor the agreements made by their nations. The citizens of those nations, no matter what their personal sentiments, have to abide by the laws and international obligations their nations are committed to.

Good luck with enforcing that in an Area where people do not even consider themselves Pakistani yet live in its soil for hundreds of years. You see you are basing your argument in a practical point and not theoretical, You need to actually visit the area to get a taste of what I mean, not base your points on what you might assume is the correct case.

If they disagree with the border as demarcated under the Durand Agreement, then the people of Afghanistan are free to elect a GoA that proposes a Union with Pakistan or some other arrangement under which the border becomes irrelevant for people on either side.

Good luck with that, once again, read the above for a better understanding.

Actually Pakistan has been rather successful (relatively speaking given the violence and opposition from the Taliban) in issuing bio-metric ID's to the residents of FATA. The problems have primarily come about from the Afghan side, where the GoA refused to issue its own ID's and then proceeded to destroy the ID's of Pakistanis visiting Afghanistan.

Obviously Pakistan is trying its very best to stop the flow of Pashtuns FROM BOTH SIDES. But in no way possible has it been successful, You are lying to yourself if you think it was even near success. More like a failure I must say, if you are a PASHTUN and you can speak Pashto, you can freely travel. If you are a Punjabi, Sindhi you will need to pay a bribe. No need for I-D's or anything. We all know how bribery works in Pakistan.

Now if the Afghans wish to discriminate on the basis of ethnicity, that is their problem, not Pakistan's, and reflects poorly on the Afghan government.

There are nearly 30million Afghans(Pashtuns) How can you even think of disengaging them from their brothers across the border, It reflects poorly on the Pakistani and Afghan government to be fair.

As for 'taking orders from the government' - the expectation is that every citizen of Pakistan WILL respect and obey the laws of Pakistan, whether they be Punjabi, Sindhi, Baluchi or Pashtun, and if they act like the Taliban (Punjabi or Pashtun), they will die like the Taliban rats are dying.

The only province that have law abiding citizens in Sindh and Punjab.

Good luck with calling the citizens of Baluchistan and N.W.F.P Pakistani, Give it a try, Try calling a Waziri a Pakistani, I dare you .

Would you mind summarizing that video, I really don't have time to watch every video posted by members on this forum.

Its only 10 minutes, stop being lazy. It will give you a better understanding of this topic dear.

On your last comment however, Pakistan does not need Afghanistan as an ally.

Oh really? Try telling Kayani that, Why on earth would Pakistan invest in Afghanistan? It is quite obvious they want Afghanistan to be an ally, If India and Afghanistan are allies. At time of war, Pakistan will be doomed. Anyone with a political background can understand why Afghanistan is so vital and important.

We'll be fine so long as Afghanistan respects Pakistani sovereignty and territorial integrity and keeps its nose out of our affairs.

You don't hear Afghanistan asking to train Pak's Army now do you? you hear the opposite right? Ask yourself why? Why is Pakistani so butt-hurt that India is training Afghans? Why is Pakistan not happy with Indian presence on Sovereign Afghan soil? Put 2 +2 together.

 

[desiman]

I can argue that, but we will be driven away from the main topic.

That is not what he said, You are twisting his words to make it seem like something YOU assume he said.

He said Pakistan has been supporting Afghanistan since it was born.

How can a nation established in 1947 support a nation which has hundreds of years old? I am glad that you admit its it was a illogical and senseless statement. It was quite inarticulate if you ask me.

Quite obviously it is.


Not necessarily, What is Pakistan going to do? Slaughter millions of people who say they don't recognize it? Even if both countries agree on a border (Which is hardly ever going to happen) Pashtuns will still freely travel cause imposing a border is once again nearly impossible when the same people are on both sides.


Good luck with enforcing that in an Area where people do not even consider themselves Pakistani yet live in its soil for hundreds of years. You see you are basing your argument in a practical point and not theoretical, You need to actually visit the area to get a taste of what I mean, not base your points on what you might assume is the correct case.

Good luck with that, once again, read the above for a better understanding.

Obviously Pakistan is trying its very best to stop the flow of Pashtuns FROM BOTH SIDES. But in no way possible has it been successful, You are lying to yourself if you think it was even near success. More like a failure I must say, if you are a PASHTUN and you can speak Pashto, you can freely travel. If you are a Punjabi, Sindhi you will need to pay a bribe. No need for I-D's or anything. We all know how bribery works in Pakistan.

There are nearly 30million Afghans(Pashtuns) How can you even think of disengaging them from their brothers across the border, It reflects poorly on the Pakistani and Afghan government to be fair.

The only province that have law abiding citizens in Sindh and Punjab.

Good luck with calling the citizens of Baluchistan and N.W.F.P Pakistani, Give it a try, Try calling a Waziri a Pakistani, I dare you .


Its only 10 minutes, stop being lazy. It will give you a better understanding of this topic dear.


Oh really? Try telling Kayani that, Why on earth would Pakistan invest in Afghanistan? It is quite obvious they want Afghanistan to be an ally, If India and Afghanistan are allies. At time of war, Pakistan will be doomed. Anyone with a political background can understand why Afghanistan is so vital and important.

You don't hear Afghanistan asking to train Pak's Army now do you? you hear the opposite right? Ask yourself why? Why is Pakistani so butt-hurt that India is training Afghans? Why is Pakistan not happy with Indian presence on Sovereign Afghan soil? Put 2 +2 together.

Brother relax, calm down bhaijan dont get yourself banned.

 

[TruthHurts]

Good for the US, best of luck to them in reducing those numbers to the levels of Pakistan.

I think its far worse in Pakistan, I mean, Have you visited Karachi and Lahore after 10PM? In the U.S.A prostitution is ILLEGAL, we have laws enforcement teams that actually enforce this. While as in Pakistan, even the poor trainied law enforcement can be easily bribed to make prostitution legal for them. Such acts merely exists in my Nation.

And Pakistan is improving her society, and we are attempting to overcome the obstacles we face, but as I pointed out a couple of posts ago, Pakistan could not ignore the rather open hostility from Afghanistan and the blatant interference by Afghanistan in Pakistani affairs.

How is Afghanistan meddling in Pakistan's affairs, when its Pakistan that is on its knees to train the Afghan army, its Pakistan that is unhappy with Indian presence, Taliban was a Pakistani creation according to Zardari, so it can have an unstable Afghanistan. It is quite obvious that it is your country which is so keen to have its influence in Afghanistan.

There was a very valid reason for warning you - your comments quoted in my warning to you. Refrain from derogatory comments such as those and we won't have any more issues.

Trust me, It was totally unnecessary like I explained before. And sure, That's fine.

 

[TruthHurts]

Brother relax, calm down bhaijan dont get yourself banned.

Bhai, mein pyaar or mohabat sai in logo ko samja raha hoon.

 

[jeypore]

Wrong - it is the political entities of Afghanistan and Pakistan that recognize the boundaries of their nations, and honor the agreements made by their nations. The citizens of those nations, no matter what their personal sentiments, have to abide by the laws and international obligations their nations are committed to.

The problem is AGNO, the new memeber is saying that the border was never inforced by the Pakistanie side, knowing that Afganistan was not in any situation of controlling it's borders. So honoring the line, especially for Pakistan, which you said was a political agreement, doesn't it. Come to think about this, Pakistan had lots of options, just look at what India is doing in Kashmir.., putting fences and military post!!! Just a few example of controlling the terrorist cancer that we are facing, which we all know that the world including Pakistan wants to solve..

See the real frustration of NATO or is it handling excatly of how the ruling Pakistanie establishments want's it to be...