India, Pakistan and the Battle for Afghanistan

[desiman]

Bhai, mein pyaar or mohabat sai in logo ko samja raha hoon.

Mein janta hoon bhaijan magar toda aram se, apne liye hi problem maat create karna. I like u man so stay out of trouble and stay here for a long time

 

[jeypore]

Pakistan could not ignore the rather open hostility from Afghanistan and the blatant interference by Afghanistan in Pakistani affairs.

This is the most surprising sentence for me AGNO, a country that cannot even group as a civic society can have a better security organization in place to make a havoc in Pakistanie society.

 

[TruthHurts]

Mein janta hoon bhaijan magar toda aram se, apne liye hi problem maat create karna. I like u man so stay out of trouble and stay here for a long time

Chalo teekh hain.

Same here,




We need an Indian flag.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I can argue that, but we will be driven away from the main topic.

There is in fact a thread in the history section on this argument you can read through if you wish.

That is not what he said, You are twisting his words to make it seem like something YOU assume he said.

I could say the same thing about you. We'll leave it for him to clarify, for now my understanding of what he implied is different from yours, and not everyone can be 'articulate' since for many on this forum English is not a native language and grasp of English as a second language varies, which is quite understandable.

Not necessarily, What is Pakistan going to do? Slaughter millions of people who say they don't recognize it? Even if both countries agree on a border (Which is hardly ever going to happen) Pashtuns will still freely travel cause imposing a border is once again nearly impossible when the same people are on both sides.

If those people pose a security risk to Pakistan and Pakistanis, in FATA, NWFP and elsewhere, then yes, they will be slaughtered as are the Taliban currently.

Good luck with enforcing that in an Area where people do not even consider themselves Pakistani yet live in its soil for hundreds of years. You see you are basing your argument in a practical point and not theoretical, You need to actually visit the area to get a taste of what I mean, not base your points on what you might assume is the correct case.

What alternate universe are you living in? See the following excerpt from Bajaur and note the local tribesmen dancing, beating drums and painting and flying Pakistani flags in celebration of Pakistan's decimation of the Taliban in that area.

The only misplaced assumptions have been the ones propagated by people like yourself and Imran Khan, of a mythical 'Tribal invincibility' and lack of loyalty to Pakistan, music to the ears of those who would love to see Pakistan split apart.

Well guess what, the myth of Taliban guerrilla invincibility lies shattered in Swat, Waziristan and Bajaur, and soon in all of FATA, and the Pakhtun are largely in all those places celebrating and welcoming the Pakistan Army and the Pakistani State.

Obviously Pakistan is trying its very best to stop the flow of Pashtuns FROM BOTH SIDES. But in no way possible has it been successful, You are lying to yourself if you think it was even near success. More like a failure I must say, if you are a PASHTUN and you can speak Pashto, you can freely travel. If you are a Punjabi, Sindhi you will need to pay a bribe. No need for I-D's or anything. We all know how bribery works in Pakistan.

Pakistan is not trying to stop the flow of Pashtun, it is trying to regulate it to address concerns by Afghanistan and NATO over cross border militant movement and to address the issue of illegal immigrants and potential terrorists crossing into Pakistan from Afghanistan.

National ID cards are a success, even more so in settled parts of the Tribal areas and NWFP. The more the Pakistani State requires proper identification to do business, the more successful the process of documentation of all Pakistanis.

And again, as for Afghanistan discriminating on the basis of ethnicity, that is a sad reflection on the mentality of that nation.

There are nearly 30million Afghans(Pashtuns) How can you even think of disengaging them from their brothers across the border, It reflects poorly on the Pakistani and Afghan government to be fair.

No one is disengaging them - they just have to follow the laws of their nations and respect international agreements while engaging. If they wish to change that, call for a federation or union of some sort between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The only province that have law abiding citizens in Sindh and Punjab.

Not at all - the majority of the Pakhtun and Baloch are law abiding as well - don't generalize and make all Pashtun out to be terrorists like the Taliban.

Good luck with calling the citizens of Baluchistan and N.W.F.P Pakistani, Give it a try, Try calling a Waziri a Pakistani, I dare you .

I don't have to do so, they do it themselves, the flags flying in Bajaur, Swat and elsewhere, and the people dancing in celebration of the Pakistan Army's victories is more than enough proof to debunk your fevered fantasies about a Pakistan coming apart.

Its only 10 minutes, stop being lazy. It will give you a better understanding of this topic dear.

Really don't have time - maybe later. A summary in the mean time?

Oh really? Try telling Kayani that, Why on earth would Pakistan invest in Afghanistan? It is quite obvious they want Afghanistan to be an ally, If India and Afghanistan are allies. At time of war, Pakistan will be doomed. Anyone with a political background can understand why Afghanistan is so vital and important.

The Afghan Army will need decades before it can pose a challenge to even the Frontier Corps, and then it will need to sustain itself. Afghanistan poses no realistic military risk to Pakistan even if it were to ally with India.

However, if it were to ally with India and attack Pakistan, then it would not be respecting Pakistani sovereignty and territorial integrity, and therefore will be an aggressor state, and all bets are off in terms of a Pakistani response.

Our investment in Afghanistan is a prudent decision - we are helping reconstruct with whatever we can and in the process make a few friends so that madness such as Afghanistan thinking it can attack Pakistan and get away with it does not strike the GoA.

You don't hear Afghanistan asking to train Pak's Army now do you? you hear the opposite right? Ask yourself why? Why is Pakistani so butt-hurt that India is training Afghans? Why is Pakistan not happy with Indian presence on Sovereign Afghan soil? Put 2 +2 together.

India is not really training Afghans to the extent that would cause concern to Pakistan currently. But you have conveniently ignored a crucial point I made when I said Pakistan did not need Afghanistan as an ally - we don't - we merely want Afghanistan to respect Pakistan's sovereignty and territorial integrity. If Afghanistan does not do that then it acts as a rogue and aggressor state, and our offers of cooperation in various fields are an attempt to preempt Afghanistan acting as a rogue and aggressor against Pakistan.

Beyond that Afghanistan can play with India all it likes, just don't mess with Pakistan while doing so.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This is the most surprising sentence for me AGNO, a country that cannot even group as a civic society can have a better security organization in place to make a havoc in Pakistanie society.

This is historical fact recognized by Afghan journalists and analysts as well. That Afghanistan refused to recognize Pakistan in 1947 is fact. That is sheltered the Khan of Kalat's brother who was attempting to stoke an insurgency in the early days of Pakistan's existence is fact. That Afghanistan tried to stoke separatist movements in FATA and NWFP in pursuit of its irredentist desires is fact.

That Afghanistan to this day refuses to recognize the Durand Agreement that it committed to, which implies that it covets Pakistani territory, is fact.

What is surprising to ME is that with all the power of the internet at your finger tips, and this issue being raised and addressed dozens of times, by myself alone, let alone other Pakistanis on this forum, you are ignorant about the destabilizing role Afghanistan has played in Pakistan historically.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I think its far worse in Pakistan, I mean, Have you visited Karachi and Lahore after 10PM? In the U.S.A prostitution is ILLEGAL, we have laws enforcement teams that actually enforce this. While as in Pakistan, even the poor trainied law enforcement can be easily bribed to make prostitution legal for them. Such acts merely exists in my Nation.

Think is not good enough - got some hard stats for comparison?

And again, what purpose does the issue of the flesh trade, practiced the world over, serve here, other than for you to have a way of flaming Pakistanis?

How is Afghanistan meddling in Pakistan's affairs, when its Pakistan that is on its knees to train the Afghan army, its Pakistan that is unhappy with Indian presence, Taliban was a Pakistani creation according to Zardari, so it can have an unstable Afghanistan. It is quite obvious that it is your country which is so keen to have its influence in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan has meddled in Pakistan's affairs by sponsoring separatist movements in Pakistan historically and by its continued violation of its commitment to the Durand Agreement, which implies that Afghanistan wishes to claim Pakistani territory.

If Afghanistan will respect Pakistani sovereignty and territorial integrity there is no issue with Afghanistan, but your comments imply that you think Afghanistan will side with India and attack Pakistan, which additionally validates my point of Afghan interference in Pakistan.

 

[jinxeD_girl]

self delete ...

 

[jeypore]

That Afghanistan to this day refuses to recognize the Durand Agreement that it committed to, which implies that it covets Pakistani territory, is fact.

You are talking like a Child AGNO... Mexico proclaim Texas as there own also, but there are Americans standing right there at the border to in force that this is part of America. Where is Pakistan doing the same thing here. Stop complaining. There is corelation between talibans of Afganistan and border issues, and that is why Pakistan is playing a double role in this whole game.

Lets have a great solution to this problem once in for all, Let the Americans inforce the borders in the Pakistan, here we will finally find the the gold at the rainbow. Since St. Patrick day is coming..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The problem is AGNO, the new memeber is saying that the border was never inforced by the Pakistanie side, knowing that Afganistan was not in any situation of controlling it's borders. So honoring the line, especially for Pakistan, which you said was a political agreement, doesn't it. Come to think about this, Pakistan had lots of options, just look at what India is doing in Kashmir.., putting fences and military post!!! Just a few example of controlling the terrorist cancer that we are facing, which we all know that the world including Pakistan wants to solve..

See the real frustration of NATO or is it handling excatly of how the ruling Pakistanie establishments want's it to be...

The member is saying no such thing - he is implicitly arguing in favor of the Pashtun and Baloch territories being merged into Afghanistan. All his rhetoric is meant to advocate for a 'Greater Afghanistan' and hence the completely divorced from reality opinions about how 'the Pashtun in Pakistan have no sense of nationhood' and what not.

As for the border, neither Pakistan nor Afghanistan had a great interest in regulating the border. So long as Afghanistan was stable, there was minimal risk with having that unregulated open border. It was with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the subsequent instability and millions of refugees, drugs, weapons and crime that the unregulated border became an issue.

In addition, the growing use of the ATT to smuggle goods without paying Pakistani taxes into Pakistan.

Today it is Afghanistan that refuses to regulate the border while Pakistan has taken several steps to do so. We issue national ID's and the Afghans tear them up, we have set up over a 800 check posts along the border while Afghan posts have gone down in number and are in the 100+ range AFAIK.

It is Pakistan that is doing most of the work here, not Afghanistan.

 

[TruthHurts]

There is in fact a thread in the history section on this argument you can read through if you wish.
I could say the same thing about you. We'll leave it for him to clarify, for now my understanding of what he implied is different from yours, and not everyone can be 'articulate' since for many on this forum English is not a native language and grasp of English as a second language varies, which is quite understandable.

As long as they admit the point was wrong, I'm good.

If those people pose a security risk to Pakistan and Pakistanis, in FATA, NWFP and elsewhere, then yes, they will be slaughtered as are the Taliban currently.

Didn't Pakistani Army surrender to like 10-20 Talibans? According to Imran Khan, they did.

What alternate universe are you living in? See the following excerpt from Bajaur and note the local tribesmen dancing, beating drums and painting and flying Pakistani flags in celebration of Pakistan's decimation of the Taliban in that area.

I know you are far more educated then that, don't use media to propagate a brighter image. Don't hide from the stone truth, like I said before, after the millions of Pashtuns that were displaced, things are not as pretty. Have you visited Quetta or any parts of Pashtunkhwa? I can assure you they do not consider themselves in Pakistan, They think Pakistani means Punjabi, According to Baluchis and many Pashtuns from Quetta.

Look at what your journalist had to say,

The only misplaced assumptions have been the ones propagated by people like yourself and Imran Khan, of a mythical 'Tribal invincibility' and lack of loyalty to Pakistan, music to the ears of those who would love to see Pakistan split apart.

I don't care about Pakistan or Afghanistan lol.
I am born and raised in the U.S.A, I am just correcting your fallacies and disagreeing with what I see as propaganda. You are attempting to paint a pretty image and are hiding what really happens in Pakistan.
All I care for is peace for the two nations.

Well guess what, the myth of Taliban guerrilla invincibility lies shattered in Swat, Waziristan and Bajaur, and soon in all of FATA, and the Pakhtun are largely in all those places celebrating and welcoming the Pakistan Army and the Pakistani State.

Pashtuns are welcoming the Pakistan army? You must be kidding me. That is simply ridiculous, They are celebrating because they are being tortured? They are celebrating because they are victims of exoneration's? cmon now, stop with the asinine comments.

Pakistan is not trying to stop the flow of Pashtun, it is trying to regulate it to address concerns by Afghanistan and NATO over cross border militant movement and to address the issue of illegal immigrants and potential terrorists crossing into Pakistan from Afghanistan.

Because Pakistan is not capable of stopping it, Its not an easy task.

National ID cards are a success, even more so in settled parts of the Tribal areas and NWFP. The more the Pakistani State requires proper identification to do business, the more successful the process of documentation of all Pakistanis.

Once again, It was and is a failure. I mean, how many thousand rupees does it cost to make one lol? With the help of bribe, everything is possible in your country.

And again, as for Afghanistan discriminating on the basis of ethnicity, that is a sad reflection on the mentality of that nation.

Who said Afghanistan is discriminating? Do you mean Pakistan is discriminating?

No one is disengaging them - they just have to follow the laws of their nations and respect international agreements while engaging. If they wish to change that, call for a federation or union of some sort between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Doesn't seem like you read my post at all.

Not at all - the majority of the Pakhtun and Baloch are law abiding as well - don't generalize and make all Pashtun out to be terrorists like the Taliban.

It is clear that you have not visited Pakistan in a long time or you perhaps never visited the Pashtun heartlands. No one is generalizing, its just the stone truth which is apparently hard to swallow for you.

I don't have to do so, they do it themselves, the flags flying in Bajaur, Swat and elsewhere, and the people dancing in celebration of the Pakistan Army's victories is more than enough proof to debunk your fevered fantasies about a Pakistan coming apart.

Once again, the above is amusing. I honestly wish and hope they are happy but I know the truth, Stop with the media nonsense.

Afghanistan poses no realistic military risk to Pakistan even if it were to ally with India.

Then why is it so butt-hurt that India is in Afghanistan's soil? Try telling that to General Kayani, he will broadly explain why Afghanistan is so important.

India is not really training Afghans to the extent that would cause concern to Pakistan currently. But you have conveniently ignored a crucial point I made when I said Pakistan did not need Afghanistan as an ally - we don't - we merely want Afghanistan to respect Pakistan's sovereignty and territorial integrity. If Afghanistan does not do that then it acts as a rogue and aggressor state, and our offers of cooperation in various fields are an attempt to preempt Afghanistan acting as a rogue and aggressor against Pakistan.

Cmon now, are you checking the news recently? Pakistan is quite upset that India is training the ANA. Be serious now, Stop hiding from the truth which it seems like so far you are.

Beyond that Afghanistan can play with India all it likes, just don't mess with Pakistan while doing so.

It is Pakistan that is upset and its Pakistan that is messing with Afghan affairs for its interest. It makes sense why Pakistan would be giving donations to Afghanistan when Pakistan itself is a mess and has tons of problems as its own, After all, its a 3rd world country. Pakistan is doing what it is in Afghanistan because a unfriendly Afghanistan is pure harm for Pakistan. Like I said before, Anyone with a political background would understand why Pakistan is so nervous of Indian influence in Afghan soil.



At this point dear, you are not bringing anything new to the table, no disrespect but you are repeating yourself constantly without any new material.

 

[jinxeD_girl]

self delete ...

 

[desiman]

Chalo teekh hain.

Same here,




We need an Indian flag.

Chalo be a good boy and you will get a chocolate true we do, i guess we can request the mods for that, lets see what happens

 

[TruthHurts]

The member is saying no such thing - he is implicitly arguing in favor of the Pashtun and Baloch territories being merged into Afghanistan.

You are absolutely wrong, I honestly do not care about none of that.

All I care for is YOUR government to treat my people with respect and dignity and to preserve our history and culture.


I have repeated myself so many times and I know the literacy rate is very low in Pakistan but for the 10th time, I am a PROUD AMERICAN. I was born in what I consider the best and most powerful country on earth. I am quite happy with were I was born. Why on earth would I care about 3rd world countries? Well the reason is because I WANT TO SEE PEACE IN THEM. THAT IS ALL.


Is this really that difficult? Do you think I hate Afghanistan or Pakistan?

Your veiled comments are quite funny I must say! When your not bringing anything to the table and repeating yourself like a parrot you decide to assume and put words in my mouth,boy oh boy! I am back to square one.

 

[jinxeD_girl]

self delete ...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You are talking like a Child AGNO... Mexico proclaim Texas as there own also, but there are Americans standing right there at the border to in force that this is part of America. Where is Pakistan doing the same thing here. Stop complaining. There is corelation between talibans of Afganistan and border issues, and that is why Pakistan is playing a double role in this whole game.

Did the current President of Mexico claim that Texas belongs to Mexico and that the border between the US and Mexico is not recognized?

Because that is exactly what Karzai and some of his government officials have said, as recently as December of 2009.

You cannot compare the two situations.

Lets have a great solution to this problem once in for all, Let the Americans inforce the borders in the Pakistan, here we will finally find the the gold at the rainbow. Since St. Patrick day is coming..

The Americans are welcome to enforce the borders from the Afghan side, that is in fact what Pakistan has been telling them to do every time they complain about cross-border movement.

Pakistan has 800+ posts to 100+ on the Afghan side. It is the Americans and Afghans who have to step up on that count.