India no match for China on social indicators: Amartya Sen

[Götterdämmerung]

Whatever is the intention of Hukou system, its other thing. Kindly look at the Data from Economist Magazine based on UN-Habitat, even without Hukou System India and China had almost same percentage of Urban Slum Dwellers. And India was able to uplift more people out of Slums to better Housings since 1991 Economic reforms. You don't need such discriminatory laws to do such thing. Also, cities like Bangalore went Massive expansion in last 20yrs but still Slums are rarely seen in Bangalore.

And rural person working hard to enrich the economy of Megacities like Shanghai or Shenzen could not send his Children to school in the cities because the Child is born to a rural person. This is indeed Apartheid and Segregation. A person can't study in certain school because he/she is a rural person. Also, in Indian law says that every Indian has all rights to work in anyplace in the country and have right to enjoy all facilities.

What are the parameters of the Economics statistics? Sure, all my protagonist of my documentary were in Shanghai, I saw and filmed their living conditions. All of them were construction workers, some with their family in Shanghai, some left their children taken care by the grand parents in the home village. Migrant workers without family mostly lived in dorms on the construction site that were clean, and sometimes even air condition. They have proper toilets, shower places, electricity and a canteen provided by the employer. Migrant workers coming with their family IMO have worse living conditions, as they mostly have to rent a run down and crowded place, mostly in a redevelopment zone, where the landlords don't invest a cent into the houses anymore, as that house will be gone within a short time anyway. But even these run down houses were once nice and sometimes even beautiful and have all the amenities of a city home.

Sure, I wouldn't want to live in any of these houses, unless I can shove all the migrant workes out and renovate it to the old style and modernise it with all the latest gadgets.

Shanghai is one of the first cities that abolished the hukou attachement for eduction of migrant children. Before the abolishment, many migrant workers started their own schools in Shanghai that is partly funded by themself and partly by donation of wealthy Chinese. Only the schoolbooks were given for free by the city of Shanghai.

Segragation and apartheid is permanent for all generation of the past and in the future. Rural Chinese can improve that situation within a generation, that's why they work their butt off to give their children the opportunity to study. The hundreds of millions of new urban Chinese is the proof of the non-existence of apartheid in China.

 

[newdelhinsa]

There are many ways to see this, my very first documentary film for the German-French cultural channel arte was about Chinese migrant workers. The situation is more complex than what you describe as apartheid, as apartheid is based on biology (race, ethnic). In China there is no such distinction. If you give a farmer the same fashionable clothing as a city sleeker, you will see no difference between the two.

Any Chinese from a small village has the chance to get urban residency based on merits, either educational or economical. Otherwise, where do you think the new urban population are coming from?

In an apartheid, you always remain an outsider based on biology. No matter how well you do financially or academically, you will always be not one of them.

I have been to almost all provinces in China, from the big 1st tier cities to the homes of migrant workers in the village, enduring -10 Celsius with no hot water to shower for ten days. I have yet to see a slum that remotely looks like the one I have seen in India.

The hukou system, unfair as it is, is one of the reson why China doesn't have the slums we witness in India. An orderly urbanisation where the infrastructure keeps up with the flow of new arrivials is IMO a better development for the whole society than the disorder inflow of rural people.

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:46 PM ----------



This comparison is just laughable.

For Chinese slums, poverty or disparities you have Intellectual commentary, for Indian issues your personal opinion is simplistic. Your bias is gushing out ?

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

India has lifted people out of slums faster than any country. There are many petty issues why slums still do exist in Places like Mumbai and one is because of dishonesty of many who sell their own new free house to others and choose to live in slums for easy access to mega cities they work nearby. There are poverty issues as well but average income of a person living in Mumbai slums is better than people living in other states in good urban conditions.

The bolded part is incorrect.

China’s achievement has been the most spectacular, with improvements to the daily conditions of 65.3 million
urban residents who were deprived of shelter. Proportionally, China’s urban population living in slums fell from
37.3% in 2000 to some 28.2% in 2010, a relative decrease of 25%.


India has lifted 59.7 million people out of slum conditions since 2000. Slum prevalence fell from 41.5% in 1990
to 28.1% in 2010. This is a relative decrease of 32%

URBAN TRENDS: CHINA, INDIA IN GIANT STRIDES TO IMPROVE SLUMS

 

[Götterdämmerung]

For Chinese slums, poverty or disparities you have Intellectual commentary, for Indian issues your personal opinion is simplistic. Your bias is gushing out ?

I have only done documentaries about China but never had the chance to do the same about India, which is a pitty. India is just not much in the German media radar. So, my information about China is quite profound and first hand, whereas my information about India is either from international organisation, e.g. WHO, OECD, Wold Bank, my colleagues who have been to India and China and talking about the differences of these two countries. You may call me biased, but what I said about China is what I first hand saw and communicated with the people there.

 

[newdelhinsa]

Intro: Lakhs of Residents, Billions of Dollars - Dharavi, Mumbai

One conservative estimate places the annual value of goods produced in Dharavi at USD 500 million (“Inside the Slums,” The Economist, 27/1/05).

Those who have never ventured into Dharavi may imagine it as a wasteland of tent-like temporary structures, an immense junkyard crowded with undernourished people completely disconnected from the rest of the world, surviving on charity and pulling the economy backward.

Beneath the sea of corrugated tin roofs, the reality could hardly be more different. Dharavi is a highly developed urban area composed of distinct neighborhoods and bustling with economic activity that is integrated socially, economically and culturally at metropolitan, regional and global levels.

 

[nalandapride]

What are the parameters of the Economics statistics?

Here is the Original Article from Economist Magazine but the article is very short but the image itself speaks everything. And their Data is based on Data of UN-Habitat.
Slum populations: Slumdog millions | The Economist

The article praised both India and China.

 

[newdelhinsa]

I have yet to see a slum that remotely looks like the one I have seen in India.

I have only done documentaries about China but never had the chance to do the same about India, which is a pitty. India is just not much in the German media radar. So, my information about China is quite profound and first hand, whereas my information about India is either from international organisation, e.g. WHO, OECD, Wold Bank, my colleagues who have been to India and China and talking about the differences of these two countries. You may call me biased, but what I said about China is what I first hand saw and communicated with the people there.

You are not only a lair but a short memory one. Just see what few minutes ago you said.

 

[Aramsogo]

Hukou is apartheid? You are obviously not very intelligent.

In the 1990's Shanghai, mainland China's highest GDP city outside of HK/Macao, offered residency to anyone in China who buys an apartment in Shanghai.

The people smart enough to take up that offer made 20x back their investment and enjoy the highest GDP in China. Could you do that in white South Africa??

Hukou System is China own way of Apartheid which ensure that a rural person will remain rural for generations and could not have all facilities that an Urban person having.

Like suppose I am from village of Champaran district of Bihar or Gonda district of UP and working in Bangalore. Because of Hukou system I could not send my Children in any school of Bangalore, I am forced to send my Children back to the my native village and left un-cared by parents. There are many more discrimination faced by a rural person living in the cities of China. Even with this China have world largest slum-dwellers.

Hukou system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[newdelhinsa]

India has lifted people out of slums faster than any country

newdelhinsa

The bolded part is incorrect.


URBAN TRENDS: CHINA, INDIA IN GIANT STRIDES TO IMPROVE SLUMS

Good, now do some maths and find it out which one is faster. I expected you might have read your own link and knew the difference between 25% and 32%.

China’s achievement has been the most spectacular, with improvements to the daily conditions of 65.3 million
urban residents who were deprived of shelter. Proportionally, China’s urban population living in slums fell from
37.3% in 2000 to some 28.2% in 2010, a relative decrease of 25%.


India has lifted 59.7 million people out of slum conditions since 2000. Slum prevalence fell from 41.5% in 1990
to 28.1% in 2010. This is a relative decrease of 32%

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Good, now do some maths and find it out which one is faster. I expected you might have read your own link, done maths at school and know the difference between 25% and 32%.

I saw it from the point of number not the percentages yaar!

 

[nalandapride]

Hukou is apartheid? You are obviously not very intelligent.

In the 1990's Shanghai, mainland China's highest GDP city outside of HK/Macao, offered residency to anyone in China who buys an apartment in Shanghai.

The people smart enough to take up that offer made 20x back their investment and enjoy the highest GDP in China. Could you do that in white South Africa??

The Word Apartheid for Hukou system is not my invention but what I found the people finding similarities between apartheid and Hukou. Have a look on these articles.

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | China rethinks peasant 'apartheid'

China’s Peasants Suffer Under Apartheid | The Freeman | Ideas On Liberty
Socialist Party (Australia) » Blog Archive » Hukou - China’s apartheid system
Migrant Control in China
China ‘Hukou’ System Deemed Outdated as Way of Controlling Access to Services - China Digital Times (CDT)



If you Google "Hukou China's Apartheid" you will get lots of results.There are thousands of more results on Internet , you can look for that.

 

[haidian]

how do people define slum?in Chinese cities slums mean running water and electricity at least,in other countries maybe not.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

You are not only a lair but a short memory one. Just see what few minutes ago you said.

Where am I lying? I said I saw slums in India, but I never mentionned anything about first hand witness, did I? and I never claimed to be an expert of Indian situation, have I?

 

[haidian]

go google image search with "slum",most images appeared are from India,no Chinese slums,there is a US and Japanese slums on the first result page,they look decent.slums mean different things in different countries.poverty line is more of international standard.

http://www.google.com.hk/search?q=slums&btnG=Search&hl=en&safe=strict&biw=1280&bih=822&tbm=isch&ei=RU0YT9u1IqmYiAfB-5WeCw&sa=N

 

[newdelhinsa]

Where am I lying? I said I saw slums in India, but I never mentionned anything about first hand witness, did I? and I never claimed to be an expert of Indian situation, have I?

You can say whatever you want now. In second post you clearly mentioned that your information about India is limited to outer sources only. You are pretending like an expert on India but I can bet that you wouldn't be able to tell which road lead to Dharavi from CSIA. I hope you know what is CSIA.