India, Israeli To Develop US$2.47 Billion Worth Barak II Project

[Adux]

Shahab, Ghauri has the same mommy "Nodong"

 

[joey]

Why do people have to go off topic? thread gets ruined..My interest in this thread is long gone. Cheers!

 

[Samudra]

Not any more than what India did when it began its nuclear program in the late 50s/early 60s. It was US funded and educated manpower that took a US sponsored project and laid the foundation of the weaponization program in India.

What US funds and educated manpower are you talking about ?

All reprocessing efforts via the Phoenix were entirely home built. The CIRUS was perhaps the only external input. No Indian Scientist was trained by the US. We stayed out of US reach for a reason. Some of them were educated in many European laboratories/institutions under many great scientists of the past like Neil Bohr. However those were purely theoretical and academic training/education.

Much of the infrastructure was developed by Tata Institute of Fundamental Research and after then AER the then BARC. TIFR - an institution for excellence in many fields including Mathematics and Physics was established way back in 1945 before our independence.

The locally designed Apsara went critical since 1956 four full years before the CIRUS went critical. If you were referring to TAPS BWRs I'm quite confident they have remained 'civilian' since their inception. India never went to add any of these type BWRs.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Shahab, Ghauri has the same mommy "Nodong"

Thats quite possible. I have read accounts where the "Ghauri" was allegedly AQ Khans "payment" for the nuclear Tech NK bought from him. It seems however that current and future Pakistani BM research is focusing more on the solid fueled family of "Shaheen" missiles, which were developed by PAEC/NESCOM I think. The solid fueled family of missiles is more advanced, efficient and easier to use anyway so who cares if the Ghauri was a knockoff.

There is nothing wrong with using an existing knowledge base to get a head start. No point in ":reinventing the wheel" every time. Some Indians may not like to admit it, but most of their advanced programs also have some sort of transfer of tech/co-development involved, which at its core is the same as "stealing" i.e "utilizing existing knowledge". In one case you ask nicely and get cooperation, in the other you don't ask nicely, get bits and pieces, and have to do all the hard work yourself. Stealing vs co-development/TOT, pointless argument really.

Solid Snake:

I have read accounts that indicate that there were two parallel nuclear programs in Pakistan, and that AQ Khan's was the inferior one. The Nuclear tests conducted by Pakistan were in fact conducted by the PAEC, and not KRL which would also indicate that Khans program was inferior/not completely developed, which means that he probably sold duds to Iran, NK and Libya.

 

[roadrunner]

Thats quite possible. I have read accounts where the "Ghauri" was allegedly AQ Khans "payment" for the nuclear Tech NK bought from him. It seems however that current and future Pakistani BM research is focusing more on the solid fueled family of "Shaheen" missiles, which were developed by PAEC/NESCOM I think. The solid fueled family of missiles is more advanced, efficient and easier to use anyway so who cares if the Ghauri was a knockoff.

There is nothing wrong with using an existing knowledge base to get a head start. No point in ":reinventing the wheel" every time. Some Indians may not like to admit it, but most of their advanced programs also have some sort of transfer of tech/co-development involved, which at its core is the same as "stealing" i.e "utilizing existing knowledge". In one case you ask nicely and get cooperation, in the other you don't ask nicely, get bits and pieces, and have to do all the hard work yourself. Stealing vs co-development/TOT, pointless argument really.

Solid Snake:

I have read accounts that indicate that there were two parallel nuclear programs in Pakistan, and that AQ Khan's was the inferior one. The Nuclear tests conducted by Pakistan were in fact conducted by the PAEC, and not KRL which would also indicate that Khans program was inferior/not completely developed, which means that he probably sold duds to Iran, NK and Libya.

Good points. AQ Khan I think is overblown. he got some ideas elsewhere and implemented them. But there were plenty of other scientists involved.

 

[Samudra]

Some Indians may not like to admit it, but most of their advanced programs also have some sort of transfer of tech/co-development involved

In case of our nuclear, space and missile programmes there is so much open source material available that you can easily figure out which part of something came from where. That is - we do ACKNOWLEDGE external help.

For example - We've never claimed CIRUS indigenous - we did not hide it from the world nor did we steal the technology.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

In case of our nuclear, space and missile programmes there is so much open source material available that you can easily figure out which part of something came from where. That is - we do ACKNOWLEDGE external help.

For example - We've never claimed CIRUS indigenous - we did not hide it from the world nor did we steal the technology.

Samudra,

I am not implying that there is anything wrong with co-development/TOT/external help, and there was no offense intended with that statement.

I was merely suggesting that, moral and ethical considerations aside, and I have no problems putting them aside when national survival is at stake, there really is no difference between "stealing" and "co-development". In both cases you are utilizing an existing knowledge base. The comment was intended for some people who like to harp on the fact that Pakistan "stole" this or that technology. You still have to set up the infrastructure for the project and all its sub systems to get anywhere useful.

In my opinion one of the ways of judging the capability of nations, with respect to the acquisition of high tech knowledge, would be to observe the pace and types of improvements that they can incorporate into the technology they "co-develop"/"acquire"/"steal".

 

[roadrunner]

In case of our nuclear, space and missile programmes there is so much open source material available that you can easily figure out which part of something came from where. That is - we do ACKNOWLEDGE external help.

For example - We've never claimed CIRUS indigenous - we did not hide it from the world nor did we steal the technology.

Most of your space tech is Russian origin - nothing wrong with it, just as nothing wrong when Pakistan gets Chinese space tech.

 

[Bull]

Most of your space tech is Russian origin - nothing wrong with it, just as nothing wrong when Pakistan gets Chinese space tech.

Well yeah right India got Russian space tech!!!

Space tech with Pakistan? What space tech did you recieve?

 

[roadrunner]

Well yeah right India got Russian space tech!!!

India's space technology is wholly Russian. The GSLV currently uses a cryogenic upper stage that is supplied by Russia..the Bharatis will develop this or just carry on using it.

Space tech with Pakistan? What space tech did you recieve?

Read what I type. Pakistan will receive it. Probably already has received some since it would appear that Pakistan is working on SLV programs.