India involved in Lahore attacks: Police

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Energon and hellfire:

Sustainability of a high tempo of operations by any force requires a dedicated logistical support base which allow for recuperation of men and resources likewise.

Yes, but we really haven't seen any sort of sustainability in infiltration or widespread operations by the insurgents in kashmir since 2002-2003. By the Indian military's own count the number of active insurgents in Kashmir is only between 300 to 800 (I came across two different figures in reports attributed to the IA).

So in terms of 'elements' within the ISI encouraging either the insurgency in Kashmir or attacks in India, there is little to suggest active institutional participation or support in the recent past.

The second issue is that of the impact of the continued existence of these camps and groups. Even if the State policy since 2002 has been one of restraint, it is an accurate argument that the very nature of these groups means that the State cannot completely control them from acting in ways counter to State policy.

The ability of these groups to raise resources from non-state avenues gives them the ability to plan and operate independently of the State, and the instability in Afghanistan and FATA has proven to be a boon for non-state entities in multiple ways.

In this new dynamic, of the ability of non-state actors created and abetted by the State for a specific purpose to operate independently, lies the challenge Energon referenced elsewhere - the ability of the Pakistani state to effectively argue for the continued existence of these groups till some progress in normalization with India, while providing assurances that it has the ability to control them.

Mumbai was a huge failure on that count, whereas the continued low levels of cross LoC infiltrations, along with the infrequency of attacks like Mumbai, validate the Pakistani argument of having enough influence in various ways to control these groups.

Understand of course that so long as the State struggles with an insurgency in FATA and struggles to impose its writ there, dismantling of camps elsewhere in Pakistan will only serve to shift them into regions where the GoP has even less control, and remove the remaining controls and influence the State exercises over them at this point in time.

Of course even with complete dismantlement in Pakistan proper and no insurgency in FATA, there can be no fool proof guarantee against terrorism occurring again. One can only be as vigilant as possible (both India and Pakistan), and hope to prevent acts like Mumbai from taking place again.

This is getting off topic though, so I'm going to find a thread elsewhere to move these posts to.

 

[sohailbutt]

'Police pin down 13 SL team attackers', claims IGP​

LAHORE: The Punjab police claimed on Tuesday to have identified 13 terrorists who carried out the attack on Sri Lankan team at Liberty chowk.

In an exclusive interview with Geo news correspondent Mian Abid, IG Police Punjab Shaukat Javed revealed that the investigators gathered important information into Liberty attack from the terrorist who was arrested at Manawan. Shaukat said that the attack on Sri Lankan team at Liberty chowk bore resemblance to Manawan attack.

He further said that all 13 Sri Lankan team attackers had been identified and law-enforcing agencies would soon apprehend the culprits.

''Police pin down 13 SL team attackers'', claims IGP - GEO.tv

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why are we announcing this before we arrest them?

Or is this a ploy to make them panic and flush them out?

 

[sohailbutt]

Why are we announcing this before we arrest them?

Or is this a ploy to make them panic and flush them out?

AM, sir, What ever it is, I think information should only be made public when the story reaches an end i.e. when the terrorists have been arrested.

Simply breaking the news in public will make these terrorists go underground and they will escape any possible arrests.

I donot think that this news on the media will create any panic in them, this is because they knew when they carried out the attacks they were captured on CCTV, and those CCTV footages were seen all over Lahore, infact all over Pakistan, any suspicion in the general public's eye would have lead to some information for the police possibly leading to their arrests, but you see as this did not happen, i do not think this will achieve what AM you said in the second sentence of your post.

But still have high hopes that we will listen to some goodnews in the coming days inshallah.

 

[Hellfire]

RAW is doing same to Pakistan. “Every action there is equal and opposite reaction”
After 1965 war there should be no interference in Pakistan by Indians. But Indian intelligent agencies did interfere in Pakistan causing Bangladesh. That was a big loss and now it’s happening again in FATA. Your governments done Mumbai attacks to take away the attention from real issue that are involvement of RAW in FATA and resolving Kashmir issue (because Obama said that Kashmir issue must be solved).

Pakomar

Sir the fact is that the Bangladesh crisis were direct consequence of PA acts within the territories of then East Pakistan. Had there been no such acts on part of PA which acted as an occupying force rather than a defending force, am sure the situation would have quite different. In addition, direct consequence of the whole issue was mass exodus of Bangla people into adjoining West Bengal and Assam which even if India would have wanted to ignore could not be due to the pressure created in the meager infrastructures in these areas at the time. It was virtually impossible for India to ignore the same. The situation on the other hand in Kashmir is quite different with no mass exodus taking place into Pakistani territories from Indian territories. The forces operating against India in valley are predominantly of foreign origin and that has changed the identity of the struggle from purely Kashmiri to non-Kashmiris which has created resentment and seen dwindling support of these elements which tend to hardly differentiate between legitimate targets in terms of IA/BSF/CRPF etc and the normal unarmed local populance.

Whatever you may wish to claim about Baitullah Masud et al the fact is that RAW or any other agency will not support these elements and as also we are the next target after this. The inability of GoP and PA to tackle these elements is mainly from their fear of unrest within the ranks and file of PA which are mainly based on rural populance which are under the sway of Talibani/Wahabi thoughts and on quite a few points are in agreement with the same.

RAW is a convinient agency for GoP to cover its inability to act against these groups. While I do not say that RAW is not involved in other activities in Pakistan, right now any activity that will directly or indirectly weaken GoP and strengthen Taliban is banned and the aim is to ensure GoP and PA remain in a position to check these elements effectively by maintaining a pure diplomatic pressure which is evident now for all.

Post-26/11 GoI was in strongest position to launch attacks against Pakistani based targets irrespective of escalation. In this no nation could have sided with Pakistan especially not US as there was strongest justification. In fact, nations would have been forced to intervene on Indian side to try and neutralise Pakistani response/nuclear escalation. In either case pressure was always going to be on GoP to act.

The route of diplomatic pressure was taken by GoI exactly on these considerations that a strike would have forced PA to retaliate even if they would not have wanted (targets were not at all related to PA, PAF or PN) for no nation can be seen as weak and that view point I respect. This would have seen various so called jihadi groups which at present are fighting PA to offer support to PA against India (which is anyways their next target) and led to closer cooperation by PA as quid-pro-quo unwittingly placing India at a greater disadvantage something India didnt want. Diplomacy has negated this as now PA has to act against these ver groups which could have been its allies had India attacked.

Drawing parallel to the situation of Bangladesh and Kashmir is foolhardy at best, today you face greater danger than India as of now from these elements, and the need of the hour is to take strong and concrete steps to ensure that you do not succumb to these elements.

 

[Hellfire]

Energon and hellfire:


Yes, but we really haven't seen any sort of sustainability in infiltration or widespread operations by the insurgents in kashmir since 2002-2003. By the Indian military's own count the number of active insurgents in Kashmir is only between 300 to 800 (I came across two different figures in reports attributed to the IA).

So in terms of 'elements' within the ISI encouraging either the insurgency in Kashmir or attacks in India, there is little to suggest active institutional participation or support in the recent past.

The second issue is that of the impact of the continued existence of these camps and groups. Even if the State policy since 2002 has been one of restraint, it is an accurate argument that the very nature of these groups means that the State cannot completely control them from acting in ways counter to State policy.

The ability of these groups to raise resources from non-state avenues gives them the ability to plan and operate independently of the State, and the instability in Afghanistan and FATA has proven to be a boon for non-state entities in multiple ways.

In this new dynamic, of the ability of non-state actors created and abetted by the State for a specific purpose to operate independently, lies the challenge Energon referenced elsewhere - the ability of the Pakistani state to effectively argue for the continued existence of these groups till some progress in normalization with India, while providing assurances that it has the ability to control them.

Mumbai was a huge failure on that count, whereas the continued low levels of cross LoC infiltrations, along with the infrequency of attacks like Mumbai, validate the Pakistani argument of having enough influence in various ways to control these groups.

Understand of course that so long as the State struggles with an insurgency in FATA and struggles to impose its writ there, dismantling of camps elsewhere in Pakistan will only serve to shift them into regions where the GoP has even less control, and remove the remaining controls and influence the State exercises over them at this point in time.

Of course even with complete dismantlement in Pakistan proper and no insurgency in FATA, there can be no fool proof guarantee against terrorism occurring again. One can only be as vigilant as possible (both India and Pakistan), and hope to prevent acts like Mumbai from taking place again.

This is getting off topic though, so I'm going to find a thread elsewhere to move these posts to.

Agnostic

Sir I agree. Let us continue this discussion at some other appropriate thread. Kindly do let us know which one, shall post my reply there now.

Thanks

 

[pakomar]

Pakomar

Sir the fact is that the Bangladesh crisis were direct consequence of PA acts within the territories of then East Pakistan. Had there been no such acts on part of PA which acted as an occupying force rather than a defending force, am sure the situation would have quite different. In addition, direct consequence of the whole issue was mass exodus of Bangla people into adjoining West Bengal and Assam which even if India would have wanted to ignore could not be due to the pressure created in the meager infrastructures in these areas at the time. It was virtually impossible for India to ignore the same. The situation on the other hand in Kashmir is quite different with no mass exodus taking place into Pakistani territories from Indian territories. The forces operating against India in valley are predominantly of foreign origin and that has changed the identity of the struggle from purely Kashmiri to non-Kashmiris which has created resentment and seen dwindling support of these elements which tend to hardly differentiate between legitimate targets in terms of IA/BSF/CRPF etc and the normal unarmed local populance.

Whatever you may wish to claim about Baitullah Masud et al the fact is that RAW or any other agency will not support these elements and as also we are the next target after this. The inability of GoP and PA to tackle these elements is mainly from their fear of unrest within the ranks and file of PA which are mainly based on rural populance which are under the sway of Talibani/Wahabi thoughts and on quite a few points are in agreement with the same.

RAW is a convinient agency for GoP to cover its inability to act against these groups. While I do not say that RAW is not involved in other activities in Pakistan, right now any activity that will directly or indirectly weaken GoP and strengthen Taliban is banned and the aim is to ensure GoP and PA remain in a position to check these elements effectively by maintaining a pure diplomatic pressure which is evident now for all.

Post-26/11 GoI was in strongest position to launch attacks against Pakistani based targets irrespective of escalation. In this no nation could have sided with Pakistan especially not US as there was strongest justification. In fact, nations would have been forced to intervene on Indian side to try and neutralise Pakistani response/nuclear escalation. In either case pressure was always going to be on GoP to act.

The route of diplomatic pressure was taken by GoI exactly on these considerations that a strike would have forced PA to retaliate even if they would not have wanted (targets were not at all related to PA, PAF or PN) for no nation can be seen as weak and that view point I respect. This would have seen various so called jihadi groups which at present are fighting PA to offer support to PA against India (which is anyways their next target) and led to closer cooperation by PA as quid-pro-quo unwittingly placing India at a greater disadvantage something India didnt want. Diplomacy has negated this as now PA has to act against these ver groups which could have been its allies had India attacked.

Drawing parallel to the situation of Bangladesh and Kashmir is foolhardy at best, today you face greater danger than India as of now from these elements, and the need of the hour is to take strong and concrete steps to ensure that you do not succumb to these elements.

explain me what in the hell indian army doing here

 

[Hellfire]

explain me what in the hell indian army doing here

I dont know if its a Quiz on identification of the pic, in that case its a surrender by Pakistani Forces to Indian Forces in 1971. I told you, the situation in then East Pakistan was brought about by PA attitudes in conjunction with policy of treatment of citizens there as second rate.

The creation of the same was a result of lot of internal forces coming into play within the polity of Pakistan

A useful read:

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The situation was grim as I pointed out due to influx of refuges from the territories of East Pakistan and as such the pressure was on India to act.

 

[pakomar]

So you prove my point it was Pakistan problem and Pakistan was dealing with it. But Indians showed their true nature by being the enemy of Pakistan. India has no business in Pakistan affairs. About the reason you give for Indians action is baseless it.

 

[Gabbar]

So you prove my point it was Pakistan problem and Pakistan was dealing with it. But Indians showed their true nature by being the enemy of Pakistan. India has no business in Pakistan affairs. About the reason you give for Indians action is baseless it.

Dude, It became India's problme when over million regugees crossed over to India. Situation was dire and India saw a opprotunity to weaken Pakistan and it took it. Pakistan would of done the same if India was in that position.

 

[Hellfire]

So you prove my point it was Pakistan problem and Pakistan was dealing with it. But Indians showed their true nature by being the enemy of Pakistan. India has no business in Pakistan affairs. About the reason you give for Indians action is baseless it.

It remained Pakistan's affair as long as there was no spillage into India. Any influx of refugees in large number causes tremendous pressure in local infrastructure and problems with law and order and human disasters are rampant.

If this aspect you are unable to appreciate, then you shall not be able to understand how Pakistan made a mistake then. No country can allow million plus refugees inside its territories and sit silently for more to come over, its akin to demographic invasion.

 

[sob]

It remained Pakistan's affair as long as there was no spillage into India. Any influx of refugees in large number causes tremendous pressure in local infrastructure and problems with law and order and human disasters are rampant.

If this aspect you are unable to appreciate, then you shall not be able to understand how Pakistan made a mistake then. No country can allow million plus refugees inside its territories and sit silently for more to come over, its akin to demographic invasion.

Hellfire,

the problem still continues.

Immigrants issue will be deciding factor in Assam

It is widely believed that the demographics of districts such as Dhuburi and Goalpara have changed because of the phenomenon. Even districts such as Kokrajhar, Morigaon and Nagaon are believed to be immigrant-dominated now.
Recent unrest in Barpeta, Nalbari and Darrang districts indicate that these districts too are headed that way, according to Samujjal Bhattacharya, a veteran leader of the AASU.
“Everyone but the Congress government (in Assam) acknowledges that of the 26 million people in Assam, as many as six million are illegal Bangladeshi immigrants… We are facing a silent invasion and no political party is bothered,” says Bhattacharya, who’s now turned an adviser to the organization.
Dhiren Bezboruah, founder-editor of The Sentinel newspaper and a former president of the Editors’ Guild of India, says migrants would create a “Greater Bangladesh” in Assam if they were not stopped from entering Indian territory immediately.

Immigrants issue will be deciding factor in Assam - Economy and Politics - livemint.com

 

[pakomar]

Dude, It became India's problme when over million regugees crossed over to India. Situation was dire and India saw a opprotunity to weaken Pakistan and it took it. Pakistan would of done the same if India was in that position.

Pakistan had that option in 1962 when Indians were busy fighting china. But did n t take it because we prefer peace. But who know that

 

[Patriot]

It remained Pakistan's affair as long as there was no spillage into India. Any influx of refugees in large number causes tremendous pressure in local infrastructure and problems with law and order and human disasters are rampant.

If this aspect you are unable to appreciate, then you shall not be able to understand how Pakistan made a mistake then. No country can allow million plus refugees inside its territories and sit silently for more to come over, its akin to demographic invasion.

Hi,
There are literally over millions of Afghan Refugees in Pakistan.By your analogy, Pakistan must liberate Afghanistan.Had Russia Cut off West and East cost of USA into two piece..Would USA ever forget about it?
Thanks

 

[shukla_swapnil]

Hi,
There are literally over millions of Afghan Refugees in Afghanistan.By your analogy, Pakistan must liberate Afghanistan.
Thanks

First Liberate Pakistan itself from the Taliban's otherwise the refugees from tht area may not even have a shelter to run to.