India hands letter to Pakistan High Commissioner

[linkinpark]

The 'first step' was detaining Hafiz Saeed, Lakshvi and others, and banning the JuD and taking over its assets.

These were the people purported to be directly involved in the Mumbai attacks. I would think the next reasonable thing to do would be for India to join in the investigation as Pakistan has asked, and prosecute these people in court with the evidence she has.

Instead, all we hear is more belligerence and threats.

And on what basis or evidence they have acted upon these guys. They have acted upon the evidence that is shared through US and Britain. Pakistan has never officially acknowledged that on what basis they have arrested these guys, why?. They don't want to be seen as listening to India, isn't it?. Somehow things are not being done in a transparent manner on both sides of the border.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Your own Geo News has confirmed that he's a Pakistani, and other media reports have indicated that Pakistan is trying to cover up.

Clearly, Pakistan knows who Ajmal is. If Pakistan was sincere about delivering justice, it would have admitted that he's a Pakistani national.

No - not on the basis of media reports.

 

[Flintlock]

The 9/11 participants all killed themselves. Capturing Kasab alive is somewhat unique. And, the US (or Britain) were not dealing with a hostile neighbor. I'm just saying that India should defuse the tensions by being extraordinarily forthcoming with incontrovertible evidence that can be digested by the sensible portion of the Pakistani public. IMHO this would be better than holding all its cards to its chest and allowing a "he said, she said" type of argument over the perpetrators to go on and on with Pakistan.

India is still building a case, and I don't see how parading the terrorist in front of TV cameras is going to help.
What will they observe?

His accent? (...he could be an actor)
His description of his hometown/parents/childhood? (could be manufactured/ Indian agents could have gotten the information beforehand)
His appearance? (we already know that)
His religion? (can't pull down his pants on TV)

What else?

The more reasonable Pakistani media has already admitted that Pakistanis were involved.

The conspiracy theorists don't follow the usual tenets of journalism. No point trying to convince them.

There are ways to deny anything and everything. When the investigations have progressed beyond deniability, I'm sure India will be more than happy to share the evidence.

 

[Flintlock]

No - not on the basis of media reports.

I'm not saying that Pakistan act on the basis of media reports. I'm saying that Pakistan already knows everything, as reported in the media! They're covering it up! What evidence do they need?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I'm not saying that Pakistan act on the basis of media reports. I'm saying that Pakistan already knows everything, as reported in the media! They're covering it up! What evidence do they need?

For one, the phone calls linking the terrorists to Lakshvi and others, during the attack, would be damning evidence in a court.

Not only that, this kind of evidence would also be a damning indictment of the suspects in the Pakistani publics eyes, which does not believe there is any evidence, and India is merely lying to 'attack the Kashmir freedom struggle against Indian occupation'.

The demand for cooperation and sharing concrete evidence is necessitated as much by public opinion as it is by legal requirements when prosecuting.

 

[Flintlock]

For one, the phone calls linking the terrorists to Lakshvi and others, during the attack, would be damning evidence in a court.

Not only that, this kind of evidence would also be a damning indictment of the suspects in the Pakistani publics eyes, which does not believe there is any evidence, and India is merely lying to 'attack the Kashmir freedom struggle against Indian occupation'.

The demand for cooperation and sharing concrete evidence is necessitated as much by public opinion as it is by legal requirements when prosecuting.

Yes, its all damning evidence provided the prosecuting party is sincere about it.

Pakistan could say that the phone calls are fake - what then? Who's to judge?

 

[linkinpark]

Yes, its all damning evidence provided the prosecuting party is sincere about it.

Pakistan could say that the phone calls are fake - what then? Who's to judge?

With all sincerity India should hand over the evidence to Pakistan for them to try them in court and extradite if possible. If nothing happens on ground despite this I think India should take sternest measures to get the message across.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes, its all damning evidence provided the prosecuting party is sincere about it.

Pakistan could say that the phone calls are fake - what then? Who's to judge?

Pakistan has indicated it is willing to act from day one - this comes on the back of almost a decade long thaw in relations and an India friendly government and military that has shifted the insurgency to the top of the list of threats to Pakistan, displacing India. It has arrested the two alleged 'masterminds', it has banned the organization. The rest should be up to the courts, if and when these individuals are charged.

You cannot just accuse Pakistan of being insincere without giving her a chance by sharing the evidence related to the attacks and cooperating.

India could also share evidence with other agencies in the US and Europe to corroborate the evidence, and perhaps ask for them to be included in some role with the investigation. There are a lot of possibilities to explore, yet the only route India has taken so far is an uncooperative, rejectitious and escalatory one.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Letters usually make good tinder.

 

[Flintlock]

With all sincerity India should hand over the evidence to Pakistan for them to try them in court and extradite if possible. If nothing happens on ground despite this I think India should take sternest measures to get the message across.

What if the Pakistani state was involved (or more realistically, some individuals who are employed by the state were involved) ? Would the investigations have any meaning if the judges are leaned on to give a "favourable" verdict, cover-ups are carried out, and the validity of evidence denied.

We are all aware of the state of Pakistani judiciary. It is neither independent nor reliable.

So the only realistic option for us is pressurize them to bypass their system and act directly. The US is doing the same.

If the Pakistani system was trustworthy, why would the US need to whisk away people to Guantanamo bay? They could have presented evidence to the Pakistani courts, got the verdict and had them extradited.

 

[Goodperson]

A letter isn't 'evidence', how is this letter going to help in lockign up Hafiz Saeed or Lakshvi in a court of law?

Has anyone from Pakistan been allowed to interrogate the guy?

How about the reported phone calls to 'handlers'? Has anything been given to Pakistan to allow for prosecutions in a court of law?

Its really amusing watching Indians grasping at straws to somehow try and show how India is 'providing evidence'.

The whole thing is a strawman - India conducts a pathetic excuse of an exercise by handing over a 'letter', trumpets it as 'sharing evidence', when it knows it is hardly that, and then whines and complains about Pakistan rejecting its ridiculous gesture and paints Pakistan as 'insincere'.

This act deserves to be rejected by Pakistan (though I have no idea what the official GoP reaction will be) since that is all it is worth.

What a negative response if th guy seeks legal assistance from his country can't his lawyers intoragate him?
The evidence is already been provided only thing which Pakistan listens is arm twisting from US.

 

[Vinod2070]

Any reaction from Pakistan officially about the letter?

 

[linkinpark]

What if the Pakistani state was involved (or more realistically, some individuals who are employed by the state were involved) ? Would the investigations have any meaning if the judges are leaned on to give a "favourable" verdict, cover-ups are carried out, and the validity of evidence denied.

We are all aware of the state of Pakistani judiciary. It is neither independent nor reliable.

So the only realistic option for us is pressurize them to bypass their system and act directly. The US is doing the same.

If the Pakistani system was trustworthy, why would the US need to whisk away people to Guantanamo bay? They could have presented evidence to the Pakistani courts, got the verdict and had them extradited.

Sharing evidence is only to take moral high ground and if nothing happens there are always other options () which can be considered with international community on our side which is already convinced that Pakistani elements are behind it.

 

[Flintlock]

Sharing evidence is only to take moral high ground and if nothing happens there are always other options () which can be considered with international community on our side which is already convinced that Pakistani elements are behind it.

Is gaining the moral high-ground going to help us get justice?

Lets assume that India agrees to cooperate, and the court proceedings begin.

Immediately, the pressure is off Pakistan's back, because the matter is being contested in the court!

The case will drag on, give a not-guilty verdict eventually, and the terrorist camps will continue to flourish in the meantime, all in the name of charity of course.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Is gaining the moral high-ground going to help us get justice?

Lets assume that India agrees to cooperate, and the court proceedings begin.

Immediately, the pressure is off Pakistan's back, because the matter is being contested in the court!

The case will drag on, give a not-guilty verdict eventually, and the terrorist camps will continue to flourish in the meantime.

Assuming all of what you say is true, none of that will change if you do not share evidence, and it gives Pakistan an extremely credible reason and justification to not do anything, while increasing support for the organizations amongst the public since they continue to view them as innocent, and therefore strengthening them.

On bypassing the system, I am completely against it, as are most Pakistanis. The system may be flawed, but it is flawed because it has been bypassed by so many actors and entities. Continuing to bypass institutions and the system is no way of strengthening the system.

Secondly, the Indian judicial and law enforcement system is nothing to boast about either, with rampant corruption and inefficiencies.

India is not getting and Pakistani nationals - period. That has been stated explicitly, nor has the US/UK made that demand of Pakistan. India is alone on that count.