India get the first 3 MiG29UPG fighters

[Yaduveer]

Just to see a picture of this beauty i opened the thread--

Same here

 

[Abingdonboy]

No no.. read the my previous posts and also the upgrade package detailed in that red pic posted by someone above. MiG-29UPG will not have Topsight.

He claims PAF changed that order and used that money for 2005 earthquake victims. He is your hero for boosting the range of your JF-17's radar from 85km for 5m2(as reported in janes) to 105km for 5m2. Atleast give him some credit. Even the chinese 50centers didn't get that info.


Even KUB will get Topsight AFAIK.

"This decisive phase marks the end of qualification for the Topsight-E HMSD, which is now fully integrated to the MiG-29K/KUB cockpit, including ejection seat and weapon delivery and navigation system."
"Thales will supply the IAF's MiG-29 fighter aircraft with 'TOTEM-3000' new generation Inertial Navigation and Global Positioning System.Thales, in addition line-fit, supplies the Indian Navy's newly built MiG-29KUB aircraft with the Topsight E helmet-mounted sight and display (HMSD), for which it successfully completed integration phase in November 2009."
Weapon and Technology: IAF MIG-29 Upgrades
You meant UPG but typed KUB by mistake?


Anyway:

MiG-21 Bis : No HMS
MiG-21 Bison : Sura-K HMS

Su-30MKI : Sura-K HMS

MiG-29B : Shchel-3UM HMS
MiG-29UPG : Shchel-3UM-1 HMS

MiG-29K : Topsight-I HMDS

Mirage-2000H : No HMS
Mirage-2000UPG : Topsight-I HMDS

Only MiG-29K has HMDS as of now. Mirage Upgrade is only now beginning and not even a single aircraft has been upgraded.

@MiG-21 I've just got it from a friend who works for a rival comapny to Thales- the MIG-29UPGs are/were slated to get the TOPSIGHT HMDS but for certain reasons this delivery has been delayed by the IAF until the majority of the MIG-29UPGs are in service and the M2K UPGs have begun. The M2K UPGs will have the same TOPSIGHT HMDS also btw. Shchel-3UM-1 HMS is an interim measure and such a systme has been in use on the IAF's MIG-29Bs for some time already.

 

[MiG-21]

I hope you just were kidding here. The Mirage 2000 was procured pretty much at the same time as the Mig 29, around 1986, so is already 26 years old and you really expect IAF to keep it in service till it's 50? That's not going to happen and they will be replaced in numbers by FGFA in the next decade, just like the upgraded Mig 27 and 29s with an age of 35 to 40 years. That's the normal lifecycle that IAF takes to account for their fighters and you see at the Mig 21s what happens when you keep them longer.

"As per the proposal, French firms Dassault and Thales will upgrade the aircraft, which will add 20-25 years to the life of the Mirages, inducted by the IAF in the mid-80s."
http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...irage-fleet-mission-computers-mirage-aircraft

"The 62 upgraded MiG-29SMTs are expected to remain in service for 10-15 years, with their flight-hours lifetimes extended from 25 years/2,500 hours to 40 years/ 3,500 hours."
India’s Fighter Modernization: Add MiG-29s to the List

"India's upgrade programmes for its key fighter aircraft MiG-29, Jaguars and Mirage-2000 are expected to be completed within a decade.
The three aircraft upgrades will be completed only by 2016, 2017 and 2021 respectively, sources told defencenow.com."
MiG-29s, Jaguars and Mirages Upgrades within This Decade - Defence Now

Last MiG-29 to retire - 2016 + 13(average of 10 & 15) = 2029
Last Mirage-2000 to retire - 2021 + 23 = 2044 (15 years more than the MiG-29)

Life time of an aircraft depends on its flying hours and its airframe life. MiG-29UPG will only fly for an average of 70 hours a whole year. Considering there are 3 pilots for a single fighter, that's only 24 hours for each pilot a WHOLE YEAR. Spending a brand new Topsight which replaces an already existing HMS is not smart thinking under these very low flying hours. Mirage-2000 didn't even have any HMS and it has a lot more flying hours left. So instead of getting a HMS, putting a little more money and getting a HMDS is a smart investment. And the funny thing, Mirage-2000 was inducted in 1985 while the MiG-29 in 1987, 2 years more of flying. Plus consider the fact that the MiG-29 faced engine problems in it's early years and flew lower than average hours in those years. It's all because of airframe hours.

PS: Airframe life of the MiG-21Bis/Bison is 2500 hours, same as the MiG-29B.

 

[rockstarIN]

^^There will be expansion of airframe life for the update of MIg-29s IMO.

 

[MiG-21]

Yes, ofcourse it will. MiG-29s Airframe will be upgraded to 3500hours, compared to the 2500 hours now. 1000 hours more.

 

[MiG-21]

Upgradation of Fighter Aircraft
Contracts have been signed with M/s Thales, France, along with M/s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for upgrade of the Mirage 2000 aircraft of the Indian Air Force, with M/s HAL for upgrade of the Jaguar aircraft and with M/s RAC-MiG Russia for upgrade of the MiG-29 aircraft. These contracts are under implementation.

The cost of the contract for upgrade of the Mirage 2000 with the M/s Thales, France is Euro 1470 million while the cost of the contract with HAL is 2020 crores. The upgrade of the aircraft is expected to be completed by mid 2021. The cost of upgrade of the MiG-29 aircraft is USD 964 million and it is expected to be completed by 2016. The cost for upgrade of the Jaguar aircraft is Rs.3113.02 crores and the aircraft are expected to be upgraded by December 2017.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri AT Nana Patil and Shri Ramesh Bais in Lok Sabha today.

Press Information Bureau English Releases

As can be seen from the cost, MiG-29 Upgrade is 63 fighters for 964 million dollars. Or 15 million dollars for each fighter.
The Mirage-2000 upgrade costs 2.4 billion dollars for 49 jets. That's 49 million dollars for every jet, more than 3 times costlier than the MiG-29 Upgrade!
Also french weapons are extremely costly with 490 Micas procured for 1.24 billion dollars in a separate contract, or each missile costing a whopping 2.5 million dollars.

Plus, Mirage-2000 costed 25 million dollars back in 1980s while the twin engined MiG-29 costed just 11 million dollars.

MiG-29 gives more bang for the buck.

 

[scholseys]

I am sure it has amazing capabilities but this is one ugly looking bird!

 

[sancho]

Sancho, I also read that these upgrades will extend the mig-29s service life to another 25-30 years,

Extending the life of the fighter airframe but not in IAF service! Again, IAF calculates the normal lifecycle of a fighter for 30 to 40 years, as often stated for MMRCA or MKI, it was forced to keep the Mig 21s for longer, but that is not their normal lifecycle.
The plan is to phase the Migs and M2Ks out and that will be between 2020 and 2025, with their replacement FGFA already under development.

"As per the proposal, French firms Dassault and Thales will upgrade the aircraft, which will add 20-25 years to the life of the Mirages, inducted by the IAF in the mid-80s."...

See the post above, you are confusing the airframe life with the operational lifecycle in IAF. In theory we can further extend the life of BISON airframes beyond 2025, but that doesn't mean IAF will use them so long right?
They simply don't have the capability anymore to be useful after a certain time period and that's what we already can see for Jags as well. The last once were produced in 2008, with a theoretical maximum life till 2048, but they will be useless by 2020!

As can be seen from the cost, MiG-29 Upgrade is 63 fighters for 964 million dollars. Or 15 million dollars for each fighter.
The Mirage-2000 upgrade costs 2.4 billion dollars for 49 jets. That's 49 million dollars for every jet, more than 3 times costlier than the MiG-29 Upgrade!
Also french weapons are extremely costly with 490 Micas procured for 1.24 billion dollars in a separate contract, or each missile costing a whopping 2.5 million dollars.

Plus, Mirage-2000 costed 25 million dollars back in 1980s while the twin engined MiG-29 costed just 11 million dollars.

MiG-29 gives more bang for the buck.

Often discussed before:

- the 964 million millions are not the total price for the upgrade, since they don't include the engines or foreign systems that will was done in extra deals

- the Mirage 2000 will be far more capable in the strike roles than the Mig, since it will offer the more capable weapons and avionics, although they come at higher prizes (MICA, AASM or SPICE, Paveway bunkerbusters, possibly Scalp cruise missile and cluster bombs)

- In any role, with 2 x fuel tanks the M2K will carry up to 6 x BVR capable MICAs, while the Mig 29 will mainly carry a mix of 2 x WVR and 2 X BVR missile with 2 fuel tanks and weapons.

The Mig will be used for simple interceptions, CAS and one squad also in maritime attack role, while the Mirage will get the special strike roles, next air defence roles.

 

[MiG-21]

Extending the life of the fighter airframe but not in IAF service! Again, IAF calculates the normal lifecycle of a fighter for 30 to 40 years, as often stated for MMRCA or MKI, it was forced to keep the Mig 21s for longer, but that is not their normal lifecycle.
The plan is to phase the Migs and M2Ks out and that will be between 2020 and 2025, with their replacement FGFA already under development.

See the post above, you are confusing the airframe life with the operational lifecycle in IAF. In theory we can further extend the life of BISON airframes beyond 2025, but that doesn't mean IAF will use them so long right?
They simply don't have the capability anymore to be useful after a certain time period and that's what we already can see for Jags as well. The last once were produced in 2008, with a theoretical maximum life till 2048, but they will be useless by 2020!

Yes, in theory IAF can extend the life of Bisons beyond even 2050 if they fly for 10 hours a year. That's not the point. The point is Mirage-2000 has a lot of life left, while the MiG-29 doesn't. MiG-29 will not fly often and take part in training, while the Mirage very well can. If they fly the Mirage-2000 more often than the MiG-29 then Mirage-2000 can even retired early than the MiG. Getting a new HMDS while junking a working HMS on a fighter which will be used very rarely is not a good investment. IAF made a wise choice.

BTW, where does it say the IAF will retire MiG-29, Jaguar and Mirage-2000 fighters in the years which you said? I need links on that, no speculations.

And who told you IAF has a 30-40 year life time as NORMAL? The last MiG-21 which was inducted into the service was in 1987. It is still only 25 years old as of today, but beyond its service life which was stated by the manufacturer. And do you know for how long IAF operated the Su-7s? And Gnat and Ajeet, and MiG-23 and MiG-25? Read up on that. Some of them didn't even reach 20 years. It depends on a whole host of reasons why fighters are retired early or made to soldier on beyond their service lives. It is not a 30 - 40 fixed scale. Maybe for new fighters based on new procurement compulsions which make it to give out such standardized year figures to calculate life time cost since it is an open tender, but not for fighters procured before.

- the 964 million millions are not the total price for the upgrade, since they don't include the engines or foreign systems that will was done in extra deals

- In any role, with 2 x fuel tanks the M2K will carry up to 6 x BVR capable MICAs, while the Mig 29 will mainly carry a mix of 2 x WVR and 2 X BVR missile with 2 fuel tanks and weapons.

250 million dollars more for the 120 engines. Not a huge amount and still the the price comes to only 19 million. The other third party systems are very minor. Even if we add a whole million to it it will still be around 30 million dollars less than the Mirage Upgrade.
Russia to deliver engines for Indian MiG fighters | Defense | RIA Novosti

I need loadout config diagrams for the Upgraded Mirage-2000UPGs. Couldn't find your claim.

 

[sancho]

Getting a new HMDS while junking a working HMS on a fighter which will be used very rarely is not a good investment.

But what you still don't get is, that it has nothing to do with the life of the fighter, rather than the capabilities of the helmet. If Topsight offers credible operational advantages, IAF will procure it for sure, even if the fighter has only a few years left, because important is what the fighter is able to do in case of a war and not in peace times.

BTW, where does it say the IAF will retire MiG-29, Jaguar and Mirage-2000 fighters in the years which you said? I need links on that, no speculations.

Besides the simple logic, that there won't be other fighters to replace by the time FGFA comes in, it was mentioned often enough:

Referred to as the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), the IAF is expected to get around 250 (14 squadrons) with induction beginning in 2017. This fleet will in due course replace the 17.5 squadrons of third generation aircraft that have been in service with the IAF for over 25 years. These include the MiG-27, MiG-29, Jaguar and the Mirage 2000. With midlife upgrade at phenomenal cost underway, these aircraft may continue in service up to 2025. Beyond this date, the combat fleet of the IAF will comprise the upgraded Su-30MKI, the MMRCA, the FGFA and the Tejas MkII.

Written by Air Marshal B K Pandey

India - Indian Air Force in Transition - GlobalDefence.net

In the fighter category, the most significant change should be the completion of the development of the Indian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) from the Sukhoi T-50/ PAK FA baseline by the end of this decade and the commencement of induction of FGFAs into service starting about ten years hence against a total order of 250 or more. Older aircraft types would be retired in a phased manner so that the available numbers of aircraft to the IAF does not fall excessively until the force level required has been built up with new inductions. This could see the MiG-21 Bison, MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 upgrades continue in service well into the 2020s, with carefully staggered retiring of these fleets commencing from 2025.

defence.professionals | defpro.com

And who told you IAF has a 30-40 year life time as NORMAL?

Besides of at least the last 3 IAF air chiefs that have stated these during the MKI, LCA and MMRCA procurements, this is stated for nearly any modern fighter, including for the Mig 29 UPG:

In March 2008, a contract for mid-life upgradation of 63 single seaters was undertaken with RAC-MIG, Russia , for a total value of USD 964 million. The MLU project will extend the life of the airframes by another 15 years or a 1000 hours. The new Total Technical Life of the MiG-29s will be 40 years / 3500 hours.

Source: BR

The 62 upgraded MiG-29SMTs are expected to remain in service for 10-15 years, with their flight-hours lifetimes extended from 25 years/2,500 hours to 40 years/ 3,500 hours.

India’s Fighter Modernization: Add MiG-29s to the List


- all Mig 27 will be phased out by MKI till 2017, when all 270 x MKIs will be inducted (upgraded Mig 27s was meant to be in service beyond 2020, but the constant technical problems, the additional 40 (+2) x MKI order and delays of FGFA reduced FGFA orders, hints that the 2 x upgraded squads will be phased out earlier as well

- all Mig 21s will be phased out till 2017, while the replacement starts from 2015 onwards with LCA MK1, Rafale and LCA MK2
- (upgraded Mig 27), Mig 29UPG and Mirage 2000UPG, will be phased out as soon as FGFA starts induction into IAF service

The other third party systems are very minor.

Is it? French navigation and IFF systems (possibly HMS too), Indian and Israeli EW parts, Litening LDPs, just like there is no report about the new weapons that will be procured for the Migs, like Kh 35, which are not present in the IAF today. The point is, while we have much more reports about the total costs of the Mirage upgrade, we have many seperated deals for the Mig 29 upgrade and not every cost is reported so far. For example, the press release clearly talks about contracts with France/Dassault, but also for HAL (1 for Mirage upgrade, 1 for Jaguar upgrade), while for the Mig it talkes only about the costs of for Russia/RAC-Mig, so to have a clear picture about the costs, you need to know how much MoD pays HAL for the Mig upgrade too! If you don't it's:

$964 + $250 millions = $1.2 billions (without Indian and western custom parts and without weapons) for the Migs
€1.470 billion Euro = $1.9 billion (total upgrade costs, without weapons) for the Mirage

 

[Ayush]

a good news