India-France Rafale Deal Stalled

[Abingdonboy]

even if they offer F35 to you you cant afford it!

If you have determined to reject US made military products that fly, why dont you do it thoroughly? You are saying one thing but doing another against your words - hypocrisy at its best!

Remember this:

REPORT: Hillary Clinton makes "unbelievable" F-35 pitch to India - The DEW Line


$65 MN per F-35 (signifcantly cheaper than the unit costs of the Eurocanards). So not only did the US offer the F-35 but they also offered it at a price India can clearly afford.

 

[shuttler]

There is a DIFFERENCE b/w a LETHAL weapon & a NON-LETHAL weapon.

US weaponry comes with too much STRINGS attached, like the case being INS Jalashwa LPD, as per the reports, it cannot be used in a war, but than US was offering it for free & just demanding the money for refits, it serves excellently during Peacetime to the IN's Eastern command, there was no way we could have rejected such a price ship.

Again, US is the world leader in both Fighter jets (lethal weaponry) as well as Transport Jets (non lethal weaponry), but both are prone to sanctions during war, IAF can though, do away with sanctions on it's Transport fleet but can't take sanctions on it's fighters, so it was obvious that we go for Transport Jets made in US but reject every Fighter jets on offer, even if it is fifth gen. fighters called F-35 & instead buy fighters from more trust-able partners like Russia or France.

It's just IAF Brain at work (Smart work) which you are otherwise calling as HYPOCRISY.

BS!

Apache - lethal or non lethal
C-17 can deliver tanks and other heavy duty artillaries. I presume indian tanks and artillaries are not lethal at all. Thank you for the revelation!

Remember this:

REPORT: Hillary Clinton makes "unbelievable" F-35 pitch to India - The DEW Line


$65 MN per F-35 (signifcantly cheaper than the unit costs of the Eurocanards). So not only did the US offer the F-35 but they also offered it at a price India can clearly afford.

It aint matter at all as the indian guy has made (himself at least) a hypocrite!

 

[UKBengali]

If that would be the case, they wouldn't need Russian and western design input for nearly all their aircrafts, wouldn't need Russian engines for fighters and aircrafts..., wouldn't need support from the Ukraine for the carrier and carrier fighters... ... ...
China will eventually catch up for sure, because they are the once that are spending the most (besides the US of course) currently, but that is still to get the basics done yet, which includes design, engines and radars.

Btw, KJ 2000 was the only compromise for China between the Russian system that they don't wanted and the Israeli Phalcon radar that was denied to them! So claiming it to be world class or as capable as others is a bit far fetched, same goes for a missile that is a copy of Aim 120, because even if they look the same, they don't have to have the same quality or capability (AIM 120 C5 has more range but less weight than SD10A, that by looks is similar).

The Israeli system would have been available around 4/5 years before the KJ-2000 AWACs was ready anyway. So to say that the KJ-2000 is a system purchased as the Phalcon was not available is not true. Anyway I never said that the current KJ-2000 is as exactly as good as say what the US has but a more advanced version of the KJ-2000 AWACs is in testing anyway. Yes, US will progress as well but it is easier to catch up than retain your lead.

Also, people are also not looking at what the current Chinese mass production of both the Type-052C+ and the Type-052D destroyers with second-generation AESA radar arrays are telling us about the advancement in Chinese radar technology.

As far as the SD-10 BVRAAM is concerned, no other countries apart from the US or Russia have managed to develop a missile of this class - the French and Israeli BVRAAM missiles have much shorter ranges. The Chinese are already working on a more advanced ramjet powered version of the missile that is very close to initial operational service and have already deployed more advanced versions of SD-10 already.

Engines is the only major sticking point but that will take more time. If small countries like the UK and to a lesser extent France can do it with much less resources, then a massive one like China with tons more money and scientists would also be able to do it. The only question is will they make the critical breakthroughs this decade or next.

 

[Azazel]

even if they offer F35 to you you cant afford it!

If you have determined to reject US made military products that fly, why dont you do it thoroughly? You are saying one thing but doing another against your words - hypocrisy at its best!

Its called diplomacy.Its not meant for the knucklehead keyboard warriors.

 

[shuttler]

Its called diplomacy.Its not meant for the knucklehead keyboard warriors.

no matter how much lipsticks you put on it, you can t change your hypocritical comment. Too late for your recovery!

 

[Azazel]

no matter how much lipsticks you put on it, you can t change your hypocritical comment. Too late for your recovery!

You are so funny and naive,kid.What is there to recover from??Hypocrisy and double talk are part and parcel of this world.Better get used to it

 

[Cheetah786]

MMRCA may be scrapped by year end

This has been posted here by Indian member.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/244415-mmrca-may-scrapped-year-end.html

 

[Ming]

Good to see France realise Indian incompetence.

The Israeli system would have been available around 4/5 years before the KJ-2000 AWACs was ready anyway. So to say that the KJ-2000 is a system purchased as the Phalcon was not available is not true. Anyway I never said that the current KJ-2000 is as exactly as good as say what the US has but a more advanced version of the KJ-2000 AWACs is in testing anyway. Yes, US will progress as well but it is easier to catch up than retain your lead.

Also, people are also not looking at what the current Chinese mass production of both the Type-052C+ and the Type-052D destroyers with second-generation AESA radar arrays are telling us about the advancement in Chinese radar technology.

As far as the SD-10 BVRAAM is concerned, no other countries apart from the US or Russia have managed to develop a missile of this class - the French and Israeli BVRAAM missiles have much shorter ranges. The Chinese are already working on a more advanced ramjet powered version of the missile that is very close to initial operational service and have already deployed more advanced versions of SD-10 already.

Engines is the only major sticking point but that will take more time. If small countries like the UK and to a lesser extent France can do it with much less resources, then a massive one like China with tons more money and scientists would also be able to do it. The only question is will they make the critical breakthroughs this decade or next.

Turbofan engines, helicopters and submarines are the weak areas of China.

 

[Koovie]

MMRCA may be scrapped by year end

This has been posted here by Indian member.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/244415-mmrca-may-scrapped-year-end.html

I envy your ingenuity.

This is his nonsensical opinion. Do you think that Dassault would just give up its only and largest ever chance to export the plane? Do you think that the MoD wants to restart the whole process and refuse the best 4.5 gen aircraft?

C´mon use your brains! People making all kinds of ridiculous conclusions without a singe official statement. Negotiations might be even on track again!

 

[selvan33]

Differences crop up in fighter aircraft deal

Serious differences crop up in fighter aircraft deal
Serious differences have cropped up in the contract negotiations between the Defence Ministry and French firm Dassault Aviation selected for the 126 fighter aircraft deal threatening to delay the country’s largest one-time military acquisition.

Dassault has made it clear that it was “technically and practically not feasible to stick to the present obligations”, as it is wary of encountering the fate of British telecom company Vodafone, which is facing problems over taxation issues.

In the contract, Dassault wants to be held responsible for only the first 18 aircraft to be supplied by it along with the kits to be supplied by it for the remaining 108 aircraft to be produced by the HAL in India but the Defence Ministry wants it to take responsibility for the quality and timely delivery of all the 126 aircraft.

The Defence Ministry is insisting that Dassault takes the overall responsibility of the contract while the French firm has told it that it was “technically and practically not feasible” to stick to the present obligations, sources told PTI here.

The French firm also does not want to be held responsible for the delays in the delivery of the aircraft to be manufactured by the HAL and has told the Ministry that it cannot be held responsible for paying the liquidity damages in case there are delays by HAL, they said.

Dassault fears it may land up in a Vodafone-like situation in terms of taxation for transfer pricing if it agrees with present obligations and such a thing can impact it adversely in a big way, sources said.

Dassault has suggested an “umbrella contract” to be signed for the deal under which two separate contracts can be inked including one for payment in Euros for the French firm and the other with HAL for which payments would be made in Rupees, the sources said.

The Ministry has, however, expressed inability to agree on these terms as it would be in deviation from the conditions mentioned in the Request for Proposal (RFP) for the procurement. The base price for the deal was $10 billion and contractual negotiations are underway to determine the final amount to be paid by India for the aircraft. Soon after the Rafale fighter jet was shortlisted by IAF in 2012, Dassault Aviation has been raising questions about the capabilities and the role of HAL in the contract for 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA).

The Defence Ministry had earlier also rejected Dassault’s demand for making it the lead integrator for the 108 aircraft to be produced in India as the RFP for the tender has specifically given that responsibility to the HAL.
Differences crop up in fighter aircraft deal | Business Standard

 

[Cheetah786]

I envy your ingenuity.

This is his nonsensical opinion. Do you think that Dassault would just give up its only and largest ever chance to export the plane? Do you think that the MoD wants to restart the whole process and refuse the best 4.5 gen aircraft?

C´mon use your brains! People making all kinds of ridiculous conclusions without a singe official statement. Negotiations might be even on track again!

I believe very clearly said Indian member and then the link pointing towards that thread and you still went on to blame me really?

1)Do you think that Dassault would just give up its only and largest ever chance to export the plane?

It doesent matter what i think it matter what the dassault decisions makers think and clearly they arent satisfied.

2)Do you think that the MoD wants to restart the whole process and refuse the best 4.5 gen aircraft?

From the looks of it yes

 

[Koovie]

I believe very clearly said Indian member and then the link pointing towards that thread and you still went on to blame me really?


It doesent matter what i think it matter what the dassault decisions makers think and clearly they arent satisfied.



From the looks of it yes

This was not pointed at you, but at all people opening threads without further or any official info on how we should go for the EFT, SU 35 etc

1.) Yes, it does not matter what you think, in fact it does not matter what all we fanboys here on PDF think, but the fact is that this deal is crucial for Dassault and the entire future of the program.

2.) "From the looks of it yes"
I dont know how you come to this conclusion..... There is a difference in opinion between the 2 sides, and thus some frictions in the negotiations, totally normal if we are talking about such immense figures and such state of the art technology.

 

[Cheetah786]

This was not pointed at you, but at all people opening threads without further or any official info on how we should go for the EFT, SU 35 etc

1.) Yes, it does not matter what you thinks, in fact it does not matter what all we fanboys her on PDF think, but the fact is that this deal is crucial for Dassault and the entire future of the program.

2.) "From the looks of it yes"
I dont know how you come to this conclusion..... There is a difference in opinion between the 2 sides, and thus some frictions in the negotiations, totally normal if we are talking about such immense figures and such state of the art technology.

How i come to this conclusion is simple i bet a lot of money and high paying jobs are at stake here ones this tender goes through some people will lose what they have or continue to get cause of this file being open in MOD.

I am in business and well aware of tenders and contracts Negotiations with Government employees and chasing after people . Government employees drag their feet to maximize benefits and arent as willing to finish lucrative situation as you would like.

 

[bloo]

MMRCA may be scrapped by year end

This has been posted here by Indian member.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/244415-mmrca-may-scrapped-year-end.html

SO????

BS!

Apache - lethal or non lethal
C-17 can deliver tanks and other heavy duty artillaries. I presume indian tanks and artillaries are not lethal at all. Thank you for the revelation!

Why don't you just come out and say it that u r just pissed that we are getting Apaches & C-17s and have an equal chance of getting the F-35, which basically hurts your superiority complex?

It aint matter at all as the indian guy has made (himself at least) a hypocrite!

You are a bit too busy 'tryin' to bash a pdf memeber, but here's the BIG PICTURE...........we have $20 Billion to give away and there are still plenty of fish in the sea and that gives us the power to be hypocrites have our own way and still get away with it.

 

[Koovie]

How i come to this conclusion is simple i bet a lot of money and high paying jobs are at stake here ones this tender goes through some people will lose what they have or continue to get cause of this file being open in MOD.

I am in business and well aware of tenders and contracts Negotiations with Government employees and chasing after people . Government employees drag their feet to maximize benefits and arent as willing to finish lucrative situation as you would like.

Why are jobs and money at stake in this deal (for both sides)?