India designs World's first Thorium based Nuclear Reactor

[amitkriit]

Dont know about Chinese policy maker, but Indian policy makers are naive. I will not put too much hope on them. And if they are co-operating they should let us know.

The proof lies in the fact that we refused to follow the US line on China issue, we have an independent China policy. India and China have cooperated in past when our interests converged, we will keep doing so in future. May be we are waiting for a significant breakthrough. The two nations might not be willing to share the critical technologies at this stage.

 

[Armstrong]

“So why on earth are we using uranium?” asked Marin Katusa of Forbes. “As you may recall, research into the mechanization of nuclear reactions was initially driven not by the desire to make energy, but by the desire to make bombs.”

“The $2 billion Manhattan Project that produced the atomic bomb sparked a worldwide surge in nuclear research, most of it funded by governments embroiled in the Cold War. And here we come to it: Thorium reactors do not produce plutonium, which is what you need to make a nuke.
Is India About to Alter the World's Energy Future? | Thorium Forum

Be that as it may I find something amiss; it can't be that none of the other Nations in the World who've been conducting Nuclear Research long before anyone in South Asia even thought about having a Nuclear Program would've at least a couple of Thorium Reactors, if they accrue the benefit as is stated ?

Especially countries like Japan or Germany who have no Nuclear Weaponization Ambitions !

Something doesn't sound right here - A Thorium Reactor giving the energy equivalent of a quite many more tonnes of Uranium & a few million tonnes of Coal with just one tonne of Thorium as your Compatriot stated & still no one explored it - Why ?

Because of Nuclear Weaponization desires ?

I don't buy that !

If this is true - Great !

But it didn't sound plausible to me !

 

[kaykay]

Its third stage of India's three stage nuclear power program.
Advanced heavy-water reactor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Daedalus]

Be that as it may I find something amiss; it can't be that none of the other Nations in the World who've been conducting Nuclear Research long before anyone in South Asia even thought about having a Nuclear Program would've at least a couple of Thorium Reactors, if they accrue the benefit as is stated ?

This is not true, actually it was the US who started research on Thorium reactors back in 1954 with the aircraft reactor experiment (ARE). This was going on till 1973, after which he U.S. government shut down all thorium-related nuclear research when they realised that byproducts could not be used to make nuclear weapons.

Since those days, with the exception of a few pockets of advanced research in a small number of countries, including India, Russia, and Norway, element 90 has largely fallen off the radar screen. But a few dedicated enthusiasts are working to put it back on.

Most of the countries started talking about it after 2008.

Especially countries like Japan or Germany who have no Nuclear Weaponization Ambitions !

Scientist of these countries should first know that thorium has this kind of potential. You know how the countries around the world follow US, and after the cold war almost all the countries which were capable of funding this kind of research were in the US camp.

One attendee observed that "it's possible to have a Ph.D. in nuclear reactor technology and not know about thorium energy." The thorium advocates are working to change that and to undo what Sorensen describes as the element's status "as Earth's forgotten treasure."

Reintroducing Thorium | November 16, 2009 Issue - Vol. 87 Issue 46 | Chemical & Engineering News

Something doesn't sound right here - A Thorium Reactor giving the energy equivalent of a quite many more tonnes of Uranium & a few million tonnes of Coal with just one tonne of Thorium as your Compatriot stated & still no one explored it - Why ?

 

[Armstrong]

@Oscar are my questions valid ?

 

[kbd-raaf]

@Oscar are my questions valid ?

I don't know if Oscar the go to man for every question mate

He might not have any idea about Thorium based NPPs.

 

[Armstrong]

I don't know if Oscar the go to man for every question mate

He might not have any idea about Thorium based NPPs.

I'm into Accounting & Finance & the last time I studied Physics was in the A'levels (Grade 12) & I got a C in it !

So mujhee seiii tou ziyadaa hiii pataaa ho gaa naaa !

 

[kbd-raaf]

I'm into Accounting & Finance & the last time I studied Physics was in the A'levels (Grade 12) & I got a C in it !

So mujhee seiii tou ziyadaa hiii pataaa ho gaa naaa !

That's like me, just the other way around though :p

 

[Daedalus]

The proof lies in the fact that we refused to follow the US line on China issue, we have an independent China policy. India and China have cooperated in past when our interests converged, we will keep doing so in future. May be we are waiting for a significant breakthrough. The two nations might not be willing to share the critical technologies at this stage.

I had some time to read few articles on thorium today, and here is what I found. China initiated a research and development project on thorium in 2011, while India started its way back in 1950. When China in early 2012 was finalising agreements with CANDU and Oak Ridge National Laboratory, India was on the verge of completing 500MWe PFBR at Kalpakkam. So, India doesn't need to go to anyone cause it is already way ahead of every country out there including US in thorium research.
I was a little sceptical when I wrote post #75. It was a pleasant surprise when I read how much advance we are in this area.

 

[Indo-guy]

Be that as it may I find something amiss; it can't be that none of the other Nations in the World who've been conducting Nuclear Research long before anyone in South Asia even thought about having a Nuclear Program would've at least a couple of Thorium Reactors, if they accrue the benefit as is stated ?

Especially countries like Japan or Germany who have no Nuclear Weaponization Ambitions !

Something doesn't sound right here - A Thorium Reactor giving the energy equivalent of a quite many more tonnes of Uranium & a few million tonnes of Coal with just one tonne of Thorium as your Compatriot stated & still no one explored it - Why ?

Because of Nuclear Weaponization desires ?

I don't buy that !

If this is true - Great !

But it didn't sound plausible to me !

The only reason why India has emerged as world leader in thorium research is because dogged perseverance and vision of our atomic establishment ....

India had reasons to pursue it while other countries gave up....

India boasts one of the largest reserves of thorium and if its thorium use it put to best use then it can fulfill countries needs for next 10,000 years ...atleast .

A. P. J. Abdul Kalam's dream




“So why on earth are we using uranium?” asked Marin Katusa of Forbes. “As you may recall, research into the mechanization of nuclear reactions was initially driven not by the desire to make energy, but by the desire to make bombs.”

“The $2 billion Manhattan Project that produced the atomic bomb sparked a worldwide surge in nuclear research, most of it funded by governments embroiled in the Cold War. And here we come to it: Thorium reactors do not produce plutonium, which is what you need to make a nuke.
Is India About to Alter the World's Energy Future? | Thorium Forum

who told you that Thorium reactors do not produce plutonium ?



For your benefit I am posting it again ....


Implications of Fast Breeder Reactor Programme to Indian capability to produce Weapon Grade Plutonium

Do you even have any idea what great strategic significance the FBR programme holds for our plutonium stockpile ???
Following post will help you understand why Atomic Energy Commission is steaming ahead with FBR programme .
it has dual impact on India's military nuclear programme ....by using Thorium as primary fuel ...it leaves our Uranium deposits exclusively for weapon production ....besides it generates Plutonium as "by-product " which is by far most favored "fissile material " for weapons ....
This is the reason why our fast breeder Reactors are not subjected to IAEA safeguards purview ...given its strategic importance


For detail analysis please see following amazing Presentation


http://www.princeton.edu/~aglaser/talk2006_princeton.pdf

As you see as per the figures quoted in this particular presentation, India's capacity to generate weapon grade Plutonium will surge to 150 kg /year as compared to Pakistans's capacity to generate 10-15 kg /year after completion of Khushab-2 !!!

That translates to 10-15 times enhanced capacity vis a vis Pakistan !!!

And as you shall see this is based on Single FBR that is about to go critical early next year ....India plans to build 6 FBRs in near future ....that will increase the weapon grade plutonium by another 6 fold ....!!!


Weapon-Grade Plutonium Production Potential in the Indian Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor
Abstract :
India is building a 500 MWe Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor, which is scheduled to be operational by 2010. India has refused to accept international safeguards on this facility, raising concerns that the plutonium produced in its uranium blankets might be used to make nuclear weapons. Based on neutronics calculations for a detailed three-dimensional model of the reactor, we estimate that up to 140 kg of weapon-grade plutonium could be produced with this facility each year. This article shows how India's large stockpile of separated reactor-grade plutonium from its unsafeguarded spent heavy-water reactor fuel could serve as makeup fuel to allow such diversion of the weapon-grade plutonium from the blankets of the fast breeder reactor. We describe and assess the most plausible refueling strategies for producing weapon-grade plutonium in this way.
DOI:10.1080/08929880701609154 Alexander Glasera & M. V. Ramana

Science & Global Security: The Technical Basis for Arms Control, Disarmament, and Nonproliferation Initiatives

Volume 15, Issue 2, 2007 pages 85-105

 

[Kloitra]

Be that as it may I find something amiss; it can't be that none of the other Nations in the World who've been conducting Nuclear Research long before anyone in South Asia even thought about having a Nuclear Program would've at least a couple of Thorium Reactors, if they accrue the benefit as is stated ?

Especially countries like Japan or Germany who have no Nuclear Weaponization Ambitions !

Something doesn't sound right here - A Thorium Reactor giving the energy equivalent of a quite many more tonnes of Uranium & a few million tonnes of Coal with just one tonne of Thorium as your Compatriot stated & still no one explored it - Why ?

Because of Nuclear Weaponization desires ?

I don't buy that !

If this is true - Great !

But it didn't sound plausible to me !

Thorium fuel cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

DBI Reactors |  Thorium vs Uranium

Naturally occurring thorium has one isotope- thorium-232. In the DBI reactor, the initial start up fuel mix is a combination of thorium and uranium-235. The uranium acts as the “seed” source of neutrons needed to achieve criticality for the first reactor. This combination of fuels decreases the time and capital required to start the thorium fuel breeding cycle. As the DBI reactor design begins producing electricity, Uranium-233, bred from the Thorium-232, increased core reactivity and power output. Over time, the original uranium-235 is burned up and subsequently the reactor is fuelled only with Thorium-232. Over the life of the DBI reactor design (approx. 60 years), about 3% of the original load mass (thorium only) will be added every 18 months. Depending upon operational choices available with the DBI designs, no or very little additional uranium will be needed.

One reason why thorium reactors have not made more progress in the past is that nuclear fuel breeding traditionally has been a very slow and capital-intensive process. For this reason, the DBI reactor is designed to be started-up using conventional nuclear fuels, with low enough capital and operating costs that it can compete with other conventional nuclear power plants and pay for its costs in the first few years, even before the bred Uranium-233 is available.

Another and perhaps the major reason why thorium use for energy production has not made more progress over the past decades is that thorium is not nearly as easy to weaponize. A 1997 international scientific symposium on nuclear fuel cycles concluded that the principal reason thorium had not been used more widely to date is that the ore contains no fissile isotope.

The Thing About Thorium: Why The Better Nuclear Fuel May Not Get A Chance - Forbes

Unfortunately, no. For one, there are very few investment vehicles. Most thorium research and development is conducted by national research groups. There is one publicly traded company working to develop thorium-based fuels, called Lightbridge Corp. Lightbridge has the advantage of being a first mover in the area, but on the flip side the scarcity of competitors is a good sign that it’s simply too early.
Had it not been for mankind’s seemingly insatiable desire to fight, thorium would have been the world’s nuclear fuel of choice. Unfortunately, the Cold War pushed nuclear research toward uranium, and the momentum gained in those years has kept uranium far ahead of its lighter, more controllable, more abundant brother to date. History is replete with examples of an inferior technology beating out a superior competitor for market share, whether because of marketing or geopolitics, and once that stage is set it is near impossible for the runner-up to make a comeback. Remember Beta VCRs, anyone? On the technical front they beat VHS hands down, but VHS’s marketing machine won the race and Beta slid into oblivion. Thorium reactors aren’t quite the Beta VCRs of the nuclear world, but the challenge they face is pretty similar: it’s damn hard to unseat the reigning champ.

 

[Daedalus]

who told you that Thorium reactors do not produce plutonium ?
For your benefit I am posting it again ....
Implications of Fast Breeder Reactor Programme to Indian capability to produce Weapon Grade Plutonium
Do you even have any idea what great strategic significance the FBR programme holds for our plutonium stockpile ???
Following post will help you understand why Atomic Energy Commission is steaming ahead with FBR programme .
it has dual impact on India's military nuclear programme ....by using Thorium as primary fuel ...it leaves our Uranium deposits exclusively for weapon production ....besides it generates Plutonium as "by-product " which is by far most favored "fissile material " for weapons ....
This is the reason why our fast breeder Reactors are not subjected to IAEA safeguards purview ...given its strategic importance
For detail analysis please see following amazing Presentation
http://www.princeton.edu/~aglaser/talk2006_princeton.pdf

You misunderstood the whole article there. The bold part is the key sentence here. By using thorium, all the fissile material from our current unsafeguarded reactors will be used for developing nuclear weapons. That's how the Indian capability to produce weapons grade plutonium will go up.
The FBR you are talking about uses plutonium-uranium oxide, not thorium. This is from the link you have posted above.

Here is more

The PFBR will use plutonium-uranium oxide as fuel, and liquid sodium as coolant.

Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor ‘has independent safety mechanisms' - The Hindu

The 500 MWe Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor (PFBR) under construction at Kalpakkam.

Please read the article I have posted earlier, its from a reliable source. (Post #79)

 

[Chanakya's_Chant]

@Daedalus @Kloitra @Indo-guy Thanks for the info guys! Its the most informative thread I have ever started!

 

[Indo-guy]

You misunderstood the whole article there. The bold part is the key sentence here. By using thorium, all the fissile material from our current unsafeguarded reactors will be used for developing nuclear weapons. That's how the Indian capability to produce weapons grade plutonium will go up.
The FBR you are talking about uses plutonium-uranium oxide, not thorium. This is from the link you have posted above.
View attachment 17303
Here is more


Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor ‘has independent safety mechanisms' - The Hindu

View attachment 17304
The 500 MWe Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor (PFBR) under construction at Kalpakkam.

Please read the article I have posted earlier, its from a reliable source. (Post #79)

I am sorry you are not correct. read the presentation and abstract that I posted in post no #85

FBR actually produces Plutonium as waste/by product ....

The article you quoted is meant for lay people and is full of blunders ....

Read the resources I have quoted .

They clearly demonstrate How FBR as part of India's 3 stage nuclear programme will generate excess plutonium ....pushing our ability to make Weapon Grade Plutonium 10 fold that of Pakistan's ....

The article and presentation comes from reputed nuclear scientists ...and is backed by statistics , data, numbers , graphs and technical analysis ....

Please go through it ...

 

[Kloitra]

who told you that Thorium reactors do not produce plutonium ?



For your benefit I am posting it again ....


Implications of Fast Breeder Reactor Programme to Indian capability to produce Weapon Grade Plutonium

Do you even have any idea what great strategic significance the FBR programme holds for our plutonium stockpile ???
Following post will help you understand why Atomic Energy Commission is steaming ahead with FBR programme .
it has dual impact on India's military nuclear programme ....by using Thorium as primary fuel ...it leaves our Uranium deposits exclusively for weapon production ....besides it generates Plutonium as "by-product " which is by far most favored "fissile material " for weapons ....
This is the reason why our fast breeder Reactors are not subjected to IAEA safeguards purview ...given its strategic importance


For detail analysis please see following amazing Presentation


http://www.princeton.edu/~aglaser/talk2006_princeton.pdf

As you see as per the figures quoted in this particular presentation, India's capacity to generate weapon grade Plutonium will surge to 150 kg /year as compared to Pakistans's capacity to generate 10-15 kg /year after completion of Khushab-2 !!!

That translates to 10-15 times enhanced capacity vis a vis Pakistan !!!

And as you shall see this is based on Single FBR that is about to go critical early next year ....India plans to build 6 FBRs in near future ....that will increase the weapon grade plutonium by another 6 fold ....!!!


Weapon-Grade Plutonium Production Potential in the Indian Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor
Abstract :
India is building a 500 MWe Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor, which is scheduled to be operational by 2010. India has refused to accept international safeguards on this facility, raising concerns that the plutonium produced in its uranium blankets might be used to make nuclear weapons. Based on neutronics calculations for a detailed three-dimensional model of the reactor, we estimate that up to 140 kg of weapon-grade plutonium could be produced with this facility each year. This article shows how India's large stockpile of separated reactor-grade plutonium from its unsafeguarded spent heavy-water reactor fuel could serve as makeup fuel to allow such diversion of the weapon-grade plutonium from the blankets of the fast breeder reactor. We describe and assess the most plausible refueling strategies for producing weapon-grade plutonium in this way.
DOI:10.1080/08929880701609154 Alexander Glasera & M. V. Ramana

Science & Global Security: The Technical Basis for Arms Control, Disarmament, and Nonproliferation Initiatives

Volume 15, Issue 2, 2007 pages 85-105

You are mistaken. It is not a thorium reactor producing Pu. Or more accurately, Thorium fuel cycle transmutes Th232 to U233. No Pu.

What India is doing at FBR is to use U/Pu mix to generate more Pu. Add Th in the mix and get fissile U233. That is, FBR is not a thorium reactor, and Thorium cycle doesn't generate Pu.

Thorium fuel cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%27s_three_stage_nuclear_power_programme#Stage_II_.E2.80.93_fast_breeder_reactor

In the second stage, fast breeder reactors (FBRs) would use a mixed oxide (MOX) fuel made from plutonium-239, recovered by reprocessing spent fuel from the first stage, and natural uranium. In FBRs, plutonium-239 undergoes fission to produce energy, while the uranium-238 present in the mixed oxide fuel transmutes to additional plutonium-239. Thus, the Stage II FBRs are designed to "breed" more fuel than they consume. Once the inventory of plutonium-239 is built up thorium can be introduced as a blanket material in the reactor and transmuted to uranium-233 for use in the third stage.[13]

The surplus plutonium bred in each fast reactor can be used to set up more such reactors, and thus grow the Indian civil nuclear power capacity till the point where the third stage reactors using thorium as fuel can be brought online, which is forecasted as being possible once 50 GW of nuclear power capacity has been achieved.[56][57][58] The uranium in the first stage PHWRs that yield 29 EJ of energy in the once-through fuel cycle, can be made to yield between 65 and 128 times more energy through multiple cycles in fast breeder reactors.[59]