India designs World's first Thorium based Nuclear Reactor

[Indo-guy]

You are mistaken. It is not a thorium reactor producing Pu. Or more accurately, Thorium fuel cycle transmutes Th232 to U233. No Pu.

What India is doing at FBR is to use U/Pu mix to generate more Pu. Add Th in the mix and get fissile U233. That is, FBR is not a thorium reactor, and Thorium cycle doesn't generate Pu.

Thorium fuel cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%27s_three_stage_nuclear_power_programme#Stage_II_.E2.80.93_fast_breeder_reactor

No question of my being mistaken ...I have clearly stated that the excess production of Weapon grade plutonium is possible within confines of 3 stage nuclear programme.

I am not talking about any single reactor but all 3 stages of Indian Nuclear programme that means PHWR , FBR,AHWR will complete the fuel cycle ...and all 3 stages working in sync will improve fuel efficiency tremendously ....

The misunderstanding has arisen because you have seen functioning of these reactors in isolation - stand alone mode ....


Read the abstract I quoted ....and full article with the link below ....

It clearly shows various refueling strategies .....whereby India will be able to divert huge amount of Plutonium ...

all this is possible within confines of 3 staged nuclear programme .....

which is Indian ingenuity .....

I hope you understand what I am trying to say !

Don't believe me ...but see it's Dr MV Ramanna and Dr Glasier who have proved it with their succinct analysis ....Please see the presentation and article I quoted earlier

 

[Kloitra]

No question of my being mistaken ...I have clearly stated that the excess production of Weapon grade plutonium is possible within confines of 3 stage nuclear programme.

I am not talking about any single reactor but all 3 stages of Indian Nuclear programme that means PHWR , FBR,AHWR will complete the fuel cycle ...and all 3 stages working in sync will improve fuel efficiency tremendously ....

The misunderstanding has arisen because you have seen functioning of these reactors in isolation - stand alone mode ....


Read the abstract I quoted ....and full article with the link below ....

It clearly shows various refueling strategies .....whereby India will be able to divert huge amount of Plutonium ...

all this is possible within confines of 3 staged nuclear programme .....

which is Indian ingenuity .....

I hope you understand what I am trying to say !

Don't believe me ...but see it's Dr MV Ramanna and Dr Glasier who have proved it with their succinct analysis ....Please see the presentation and article I quoted earlier

My mistake, I replied to this part:

who told you that Thorium reactors do not produce plutonium ?

and missed the context.

 

[kaykay]

You are mistaken. It is not a thorium reactor producing Pu. Or more accurately, Thorium fuel cycle transmutes Th232 to U233. No Pu.

What India is doing at FBR is to use U/Pu mix to generate more Pu. Add Th in the mix and get fissile U233. That is, FBR is not a thorium reactor, and Thorium cycle doesn't generate Pu.

Thorium fuel cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%27s_three_stage_nuclear_power_programme#Stage_II_.E2.80.93_fast_breeder_reactor

Thats right. Thorium don't generate Plutonium but Uranium and Uranium generated Plutonium. But no one can deny Indo-guy's post regarding enhancement in our plutonium stockpile after PFBR in Kalpakkam and follow on 6 reactors.(140*6= 840 kg/year weapon grade plutonium).
PS: PFBR is our second stage on India's three stage nuclear power plan.

 

[Indo-guy]

You are mistaken. It is not a thorium reactor producing Pu. Or more accurately, Thorium fuel cycle transmutes Th232 to U233. No Pu.

What India is doing at FBR is to use U/Pu mix to generate more Pu. Add Th in the mix and get fissile U233. That is, FBR is not a thorium reactor, and Thorium cycle doesn't generate Pu.

Thorium fuel cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%27s_three_stage_nuclear_power_programme#Stage_II_.E2.80.93_fast_breeder_reactor

It's matter of great pride for all of us .

the big picture that other countries failed to see ....our atomic establishment had visualized it long before .

while other countries gave up research on Thorium...we pursued it ...because our scientists were able to make impossible looking scientific Ju-gaad .....

It's simply amazing ...which many people failed to understand .


This is simply great example of Indian ingenuity ....to have worked out ways to get Plutonium by using Thorium by way of 3 staged nuclear programme .

My mistake, I replied to this part:

and missed the context.

It's ok ....because many great scientific establishments actually missed the big picture that India's 3 stage nuclear programme envisioned .

 

[Kloitra]

Thats right. Thorium don't generate Plutonium but Uranium and Uranium generated Plutonium.

Again I may be reading out of context but, the Pu generated is separate from Th cycle. Thorium cycle doesn't generates Pu.
The Uranium produced in Th cycle doesn't and can't transmute to Pu.

 

[Daedalus]

I am sorry you are not correct. read the presentation and abstract that I posted in post no #85

FBR actually produces Plutonium as waste/by product ....

The article you quoted is meant for lay people and is full of blunders ....

Read the resources I have quoted .

They clearly demonstrate How FBR as part of India's 3 stage nuclear programme will generate excess plutonium ....pushing our ability to make Weapon Grade Plutonium 10 fold that of Pakistan's ....

The article and presentation comes from reputed nuclear scientists ...and is backed by statistics , data, numbers , graphs and technical analysis ....

Please go through it ...

If you cant understand your own article then I cant help you there. You can also go through @Kloitra post #86, the forbes article posted there. It also clearly states,

India has 20 uranium-based nuclear reactors producing 4,385 MW of electricity already in operation and has another six under construction, 17 planned, and 40 proposed. To top it all off, thorium would also be the ideal solution for allowing countries like Iran or North Korea to have nuclear power without worrying whether their nuclear programs are a cover for developing weapons… a worry with which we are all too familiar at present.

Ofcourse the weapons grade plutonium will go up 10 fold, as all this uranium will go to produce plutonium once we have thorium.

 

[Indo-guy]

Thats right. Thorium don't generate Plutonium but Uranium and Uranium generated Plutonium. But no one can deny Indo-guy's post regarding enhancement in our plutonium stockpile after PFBR in Kalpakkam and follow on 6 reactors.(140*6= 840 kg/year weapon grade plutonium).
PS: PFBR is our second stage on India's three stage nuclear power plan.

and AHWR will complete the third stage ....
We are closing on the gap gradually ...

 

[Kloitra]

It's matter of great pride for all of us .

the big picture that other countries failed to see ....our atomic establishment had visualized it long before .

while other countries gave up research on Thorium...we pursued it ...because our scientists were able to make impossible looking scientific Ju-gaad .....

It's simply amazing ...which many people failed to understand .


This is simply great example of Indian ingenuity ....to have worked out ways to get Plutonium by using Thorium by way of 3 staged nuclear programme .



It's ok ....because many great scientific establishments actually missed the big picture that India's 3 stage nuclear programme envisioned .

Even now I can't understand how Pu production needs Thorium. The FBR can run without Th. What Thorium does is reduce the need of u235/8 and Pu, and is not actually involved in the fuel cycle. This, I do not see as ingenuity but simply a matter of need. Most other nuclear weapon state have better supply of U and thus dont need thorium.

 

[Indo-guy]

If you cant understand your own article then I cant help you there. You can also go through @Kloitra post #86, the forbes article posted there. It also clearly states,

Ofcourse the weapons grade plutonium will go up 10 fold, as all this uranium will go to produce plutonium once we have thorium.

I am not saying you are totally wrong ...
all I am saying ...that you have seen only part and not the whole ....

the resources you quoted ...did they talk about 3 stage nuclear programme ?

Because again and again I am saying that this is possible within confines of 3 stage Nuclear programme .

which was conceptualized by Indian scientific establishment ....

Even now I can't understand how Pu production needs Thorium. The FBR can run without Th. What Thorium does is reduce the need of u235/8 and Pu, and is not actually involved in the fuel cycle. This, I do not see as ingenuity but simply a matter of need. Most other nuclear weapon state have better supply of U and thus dont need thorium.

Yes . Uranium generated Plutonium . FBR can run without Th ...and Plutonium Production does not need Thorium .

but we have excess Thorium ...but limited Uranium ....


please read the wiki page on India's three stage Nuclear programme

India's three-stage nuclear power programme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kloitra]

I am not saying you are totally wrong ...
all I am saying ...that you have seen only part and not the whole ....

the resources you quoted ...did they talk about 3 stage nuclear programme ?

Because again and again I am saying that this is possible within confines of 3 stage Nuclear programme .

which was conceptualized by Indian scientific establishment ....

What you are saying infers that it is not possible beyond the confines of 3 stage nuclear programme.

please read the wiki page on India's three stage Nuclear programme

India's three-stage nuclear power programme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am probably misunderstanding you. Are you saying that Pu production is not possible outside the confines of 3 stage programme due to technological inediquecies? Or are you saying India bypassed international pressure and U/Pu needs by 3 stage programme?

 

[Indo-guy]

What you are saying infers that it is not possible beyond the confines of 3 stage nuclear programme.

No I did not mean to say that .
what I meant that the Indian 3 stage nuclear programme enables us to use Thorium instead of uranium ....and at the same time brilliantly devised refueling strategies allow us to divert ' excess' plutonium ....

This has become possible because of 3 stage nuclear programme ....

 

[Kloitra]

No I did not mean to say that .
what I meant that the Indian 3 stage nuclear programme enables us to use Thorium instead of uranium ....and at the same time brilliantly devised refueling strategies allow us to divert ' excess' plutonium ....

This has become possible because of 3 stage nuclear programme ....

This clears it up! Agreed.

 

[Indo-guy]

What you are saying infers that it is not possible beyond the confines of 3 stage nuclear programme.



I am probably misunderstanding you. Are you saying that Pu production is not possible outside the confines of 3 stage programme due to technological inediquecies? Or are you saying India bypassed international pressure and U/Pu needs by 3 stage programme?

we know that Plutonium can be produced from uranium ....but our uranium deposis are very limited .

Plutonium serves as fuel as well as fissile material for weapons .

Now we had to find out new ways based on constrains put on us due to extremely limited uranium but vast reserves of Thorium to go around it .

That's why we opted for 3 stage programme .....which allows us to use thorium instead of uranium ....but to use thorium ...we need lot of plutonium to begin with ...

So I'st stage of nuclear programme allow us to maintain nuclear energy production with our limited uranium at the same time producing plutonium ...just little enough .

we move with stage 2 of nuclear programme where we use little Plutonium generated by 1'stage ...with natural uranium ....to generate much more Plutonium besides energy ....

Now withy excess Plutonium we can use Thorium along with plutonium in FBR itself i.e 2'nd stage to generate more Uranium and plutonium ...


So with this we will have excess of U 233 which can be used along with thorium exclusively in stage 3 of nuclear programme ....

 

[ashish1]

Can anyone tell me how many nuclear reactors we are making Indigenoulsy???

 

[proud_indian]

Can anyone tell me how many nuclear reactors we are making Indigenoulsy???

The projects under construction are

Kalpakkam Bhavini TamilNadu PFBR 500 x 1500
Kakrapar NPCIL Gujarat PHWR 700 x 21400
Rawatbhata NPCIL Rajasthan PHWR 700 x 21400



The planned projects are

Gorakhpur NPCIL Haryana PHWR 700 x 42,800
Chutka NPCIL Madhya Pradesh PHWR 700 x 21,400
Mahi Banswara NPCIL Rajasthan PHWR 700 x 21,400
Kaiga NPCIL Karnataka PHWR 700 x 21,400
Kalpakkam NPCIL Tamil Nadu FBR 500 x 21,000
Site to be decided AHWR 300 x 1300