India Deployed Combat Jets Mistaking Migratory Birds for Pakistani Drones

[帅的一匹]

新浪独家对话印度空军总司令法利·梅杰_visionzhen_新浪æ’*客

I like the way and tones of IAF chief, he looks great.

 

[帅的一匹]

A short film for IAF:
印度空军实力展示 亚洲数一数二的空ä¸*劲旅 印度雄风 超清—在线æ’*放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

Joke aside, IAF is not that bad.

PLAAF is stronger doesn't mean IAF is weak. They are one of the top of Asia. my 2 cents

 

[Spring Onion]

another gem from Indians

 

[Screambowl]

Good to know that IAF is always on high alert in that region and can shoot down any incoming PAF jet before it reaches Indian airspace.

 

[帅的一匹]

I think IAF is little bit over nervous along the border, next time low level error like this one shall not happen again.

Good to know that IAF is always on high alert in that region and can shoot down any incoming PAF jet before it reaches Indian airspace.

PAF won't attack you actively unless your fighter cross the border.

 

[Screambowl]

I think IAF is little bit over nervous along the border, next time low level error like this one shall not happen again.


PAF won't attack you actively unless your fighter cross the border.

They won't attack us, it is for their good only. But such activities on radars must not be ignored, it can come out to be a spy plane of any kind to patrol border areas or infiltrate the airspace.

 

[gambit]

Anything visible is detectable by radar ---- unless they are too far to be detected by receiving active beams.

1) It's unforgivable that militants mistook the planet as man made objects since they're undetectable by radars.
2) It's abnormal that a radar could not detect birds as explained as above, especially birds are in schooling.

I would say, all these happened were nothing to do with radars. They're caused by inexperienced radar operators or unprofessional training.

SOP were scripted wrongly -- "How to read radar signals received"

And I say you are wrong. Grossly wrong. It has everything to do with radars.

I will clear this up and if the Indian members here are smart, they should remember/save what I say to spare themselves and their country some embarrassment.

Birds, insects, and flora are called 'volumetric targets' in radar detection.

A 'volumetric target' is a radar target that is composed of many individual members/contributors whose individual radar reflections interacts with each other to create a radar return that is calculated to be a monolithic body.

Here...

Target Interaction and Image Appearance | Earth Sciences

If the radar energy does manage to penetrate through the topmost surface, then volume scattering may occur. Volume scattering is the scattering of radar energy within a volume or medium, and usually consists of multiple bounces and reflections from different components within the volume. For example, in a forest, scattering may come from the leaf canopy at the tops of the trees, the leaves and branches further below, and the tree trunks and soil at the ground level. Volume scattering may serve to decrease or increase image brightness, depending on how much of the energy is scattered out of the volume and back to the radar.

Volumetric scattering...multiple bounces and reflections from different components within the volume.

If a single bird drops out of the flock, the target's radar return is decreased slightly but the bird itself WILL NOT be detected. There are radars designed specifically to detect individual bird or even an airborne bee but that is for a different subject. But for what we are talking about here, the individual bird or bee or leaf will not be detected when that component is separated from the mass.

There is nothing out of the ordinary about this event. It is funny but ultimately harmless and perhaps even a credit for the Indian defense because it shows they are alert.

 

[Malik Usman]

I'm not sure why so many Pakistani members find this funny. If Indian radars are sensitive enough to pickup birds then they can surely pickup aircraft. More alarming for Pakistan is that the Indians can quickly scramble aircraft to a perceived threat while Pakistani airspace has been violated on a regular basis without them having a clue.

That much sensitivity...will only take their sleeps.......and they will be reacting on each bird flying on their border....

 

[janon]

And I say you are wrong. Grossly wrong. It has everything to do with radars.

I will clear this up and if the Indian members here are smart, they should remember/save what I say to spare themselves and their country some embarrassment.

Birds, insects, and flora are called 'volumetric targets' in radar detection.

A 'volumetric target' is a radar target that is composed of many individual members/contributors whose individual radar reflections interacts with each other to create a radar return that is calculated to be a monolithic body.

Here...

Target Interaction and Image Appearance | Earth Sciences

Volumetric scattering...multiple bounces and reflections from different components within the volume.

If a single bird drops out of the flock, the target's radar return is decreased slightly but the bird itself WILL NOT be detected. There are radars designed specifically to detect individual bird or even an airborne bee but that is for a different subject. But for what we are talking about here, the individual bird or bee or leaf will not be detected when that component is separated from the mass.

There is nothing out of the ordinary about this event. It is funny but ultimately harmless and perhaps even a credit for the Indian defense because it shows they are alert.

No point explaining all this to Pakistanis. The point of the thread is to mock at Indian armed forces. They get very few real opportunities to do so, so even spurious ones like these, which are not a matter of embarrassment, are made out to be so. No matter how much you explain to them that it does our air defence credit that any minor intrusion is detected and precautionary measures taken, they will still laugh about it. On the other hand, drones and helicopters violate their airspace every day, kill their citizens and go home for lunch, and somehow their air force is far superior.

Threads like these have nothing to do with logic or reason, these are about petty point scoring. When you give a proper explanation, you are under the mistaken impression that there are Pakistanis who care to listen or understand. Forget it, you won't find such a Pakistani on threads like these.

Pakistanis: Yes yes, go ahead and laugh that not even birds can enter India undetected. While air forces and radar operators who remain impotent in the face of foreign combat aircrafts are the real heroes, the mard-e-momins. With this kind of risible ideas among Pakistanis, and ignorance of what is praiseworthy and what is joke-worthy, it is no wonder that Pakistani designs have always been thwarted by India since independence.

 

[Fawkes]

That much sensitivity...will only take their sleeps.......and they will be reacting on each bird flying on their border....

isn't that better than any US drone/helicopter entering your airspace and you don't even know until they are gone?

 

[illuminatidinesh]

Ok let there be honest mistake from IAF and they did scramble a jet but why are the pakistan members are so delighted about that? I thought they would be worried about alertness of the IAF, Am sure the logical PAF would be thinking about it though.
What is so funny is the whole world can make fun except these fellas.... Any way embarrass yourselves.

 

[Mav3rick]

Good, IAF is always alert......

LOL........It actually worked? I mean, most of the guys said that Indians would not be fooled but if the flights were indeed considered 'birds' then the plan was brilliant!

 

[longlong]

And I say you are wrong. Grossly wrong. It has everything to do with radars.

I will clear this up and if the Indian members here are smart, they should remember/save what I say to spare themselves and their country some embarrassment.

Birds, insects, and flora are called 'volumetric targets' in radar detection.

A 'volumetric target' is a radar target that is composed of many individual members/contributors whose individual radar reflections interacts with each other to create a radar return that is calculated to be a monolithic body.

Here...

Volumetric scattering...multiple bounces and reflections from different components within the volume.

If a single bird drops out of the flock, the target's radar return is decreased slightly but the bird itself WILL NOT be detected. There are radars designed specifically to detect individual bird or even an airborne bee but that is for a different subject. But for what we are talking about here, the individual bird or bee or leaf will not be detected when that component is separated from the mass.

There is nothing out of the ordinary about this event. It is funny but ultimately harmless and perhaps even a credit for the Indian defense because it shows they are alert.

Don't be confused by radars which made false alarm more than true.

False alarm triggered by birds are normal, especially by those migratory birds, they come and go seasonally. I don't think the birds bouncing back is happened first time on India's jets screen and the previous experience was followed by newbies.

This is 100% conventional human beings mistake, not the machines.

For the case of mistaken planets as drones, if the mistake had not been recorded and 'SOP' was not updated, the same mistake would happen again. That's the difference between well trained troops and those poor ones.

 

[Jazzbot]

First Venus and now birds, what these indiots are smoking recently?

 

[gambit]

Don't be confused by radars which made false alarm more than true.

False alarm triggered by birds are normal, especially by those migratory birds, they come and go seasonally. I don't think the birds bouncing back is happened first time on India's jets screen and the previous experience was followed by newbies.

This is 100% conventional human beings mistake, not the machines.

For the case of mistaken planets as drones, if the mistake had not been recorded and 'SOP' was not updated. This mistake would happen again. That's the difference between well trained troops and those poor ones.

Please stop trying to pass yourself off as someone who know what he is talking about.

In radar detection, a 'false alarm' is a statistical event. If the system marked a return as a valid target, whatever it is passed the constant false alarm rate (CFAR) criteria. In this event, the individual birds were never detected so as discrete components, each bird would never reach the threshold in order to enter the CFAR algorithm.

Constant false alarm rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Constant false alarm rate (CFAR) detection refers to a common form of adaptive algorithm used in radar systems to detect target returns against a background of noise, clutter and interference.

All echoes must pass through the CFAR filter.

The system was designed, as most do, to consider individual birds as part of background clutter. But when there are enough of them and if they fly close enough in order for their individual reflections to interact -- constructive interference -- the sum of these interactions will pass the CFAR threshold, meaning the mass/flock will not be consider an anomaly from background but as a valid return.

At the operator level, what constitute a 'false alarm' depends on the recognition protocols enacted by the organization. At this level, how a target behaves to mark it as a man-made object or something of nature depends on experience and records, and in order for a target to be opined by an operator as nature made its behavior must be consistent with what was observed before.

Flocks of birds rapidly changing directions have been VISUALLY mistaken as UFOs before.

Try this...

CAELESTIA Birds

It would be no different on a radar scope. If a target exhibits flight behaviors consistent with the profile of a slow moving aircraft, there is no way the operator would know that he is looking at a flock of birds.

Bug-Spotting Radar Saves Aircraft From Bird Strikes - ABC News

Radar signals bounced off flocks of moving birds are easily confused by those from large numbers of tightly packed flying insects. Trained technicians can recognize subtle pulses in the signals caused by bird's beating wings to tell them apart. But that is not easy, especially for large, mixed flocks of birds and insects.

Air traffic controllers do not always have time to do that, and it causes problems for biologists studying bird migrations too, says Serge Zaugg of the Swiss Ornithological Institute in Sempach.

As highlighted, such pulses are discernible only if the individual birds are sufficiently spaced apart while flying in formation, large birds like pelicans or the smaller gulls will, but with certain smaller species like martin or sparrow, the birds will so quickly gathered that no discrete pulses will be produced for long.

I know you are desperate to laugh at the Indians, but be intellectually honest enough to admit that you do not know what you are talking about. Until more information with sufficient technical details come out to say otherwise, I stand by my opinion that this is a valid response.