India Defeated In The First Round

[Bull]

even if india attacks now....she would be considered as agressor....and pak would gain all the sympatheise from the world....



cheers!!!1

Palestineans have all the sympathy, what have they gained?

 

[Rafael]

Palestineans have all the sympathy, what have they gained?

pakistan is not palestine....and its india we are talking about...not israel....

 

[Jihad]

pakistan is not palestine....and its india we are talking about...not israel....

Spot on, people should stop comparing themselves to something that only exists in fairytales.

 

[Bull]

Im not a fool to compare Pak to palestine, what i meant to say was that world sympathy wont earn anybody anything.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Im not a fool to compare Pak to palestine, what i meant to say was that world sympathy wont earn anybody anything.

Absolutely true.

However, as we saw in Kargil, the tag of 'aggressor' can be translated into diplomatic pressure which can be effective on countries that do not have big daddy USA backing them to the hilt, innocent or guilty.

 

[dan66]

ISLAMABAD - Despite India’s humiliating defeat on the diplomatic front, the chance of a military confrontation is not yet over.

The Indian media and External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee have taken an extraordinary u-turn in the last few days and seem to be going out of their way to ensure peace in the region and the de-escalation of of tension - which if they are to be believed, are a product of Pakistan’s war mongering. India has now denied ever amassing its troops in the Rajasthan area, nevermind building hangars and runways. The recent statements by the high and mighty in India are not without reason, however. Lets first have a look at what has been said before we attempt to look into the reasons behind this sudden change of heart by our Indian ‘friends’.

The Brass Tacks of India’s Duplicity Pakistan Ka Khuda Hafiz

 

[RabzonKhan]

EDITORIAL COMMENT | The War of Words

The Times of India
30 Dec 2008, 0000 hrs IST

After a week of belligerence, during which sharp words were traded, Indian and Pakistani officials are cooling it, for now. India's patience is running thin and it is not hard to see why. A month after the devastating attack on Mumbai, despite evidence that points to the fact that the perpetrators came from across the border, Pakistan continues to deny facts and refuses to cooperate with the investigations or crack down on terrorist outfits that flourish on its soil. If that was not bad enough, Islamabad has gone on the offensive and whipped up a war hysteria that New Delhi has studiously stayed clear of despite being provoked.

As we have argued in these columns since the attack took place, talk of war or limited strikes is not the right response. The Indian government was right in being restrained and in working diplomatic channels to achieve its ends. By putting its case before the international community, and trying to mobilise a global consensus on tackling contemporary terrorism which more often than not originates in the Afghan and Pakistani badlands and knows no boundaries anymore it did what mature, confident democracies are supposed to do. However, we have failed on one important count that of communicating our position to the global public.

While our diplomats might be doing a fine job behind the scenes pressing India's case among our allies, as well as engaging with Pakistan's allies like Saudi Arabia and China they have been very tardy in working the world media. Pakistan's ambassador, Husain Haqqani, is all over the airwaves in America, defending Pakistan's actions and offering the view that Pakistan is as much a victim of terrorism as India is. President Asif Zardari too has been quick off the block when it comes to the public relations exercise, arguing an indefensible case. Where are the voices from the Indian establishment in the world media? Search, and you will draw a blank.

India has a strong case but it needs to do more to influence global opinion makers. If India hopes to get the international community to put pressure on Pakistan to act, then it is not enough for our diplomats and leaders to commiserate with their counterparts in influential countries alone. They must be seen out there, engaging with ordinary people who are now being fed a daily dose of Pakistan's rhetoric.

 

[roopesh]

The tension between two countries have come down. The media started diverting issues. Nothing much happened in the army side too except both the countries declared alert situation and made their force moved to border and waiting for the next move. Both army officers had sufficient discussions and called off. There is too much international pressure too....That war chapter is almost closed!!!!! Sorry to all my frens on this forum who were too war oriented...

NOW WHO WON THIS VIRTUAL BATTLE? How much India encashed the situation or what pakistan gained from it.

Please post your views.

 

[Patriot]

I think we should give some credit to Zardari.Hes not that bad after all!I hope he also fixes the economy but who knows he might start looting again..Pakistan is getting on right track now i hope there wont be any coup soon.Democracy will phase out bad leaders!

 

[Bilsher007]

The tension between two countries have come down. The media started diverting issues. Nothing much happened in the army side too except both the countries declared alert situation and made their force moved to border and waiting for the next move. Both army officers had sufficient discussions and called off. There is too much international pressure too....That war chapter is almost closed!!!!! Sorry to all my frens on this forum who were too war oriented...

NOW WHO WON THIS VIRTUAL BATTLE? How much India encashed the situation or what pakistan gained from it.

Please post your views.

Complete NONSENSE thread BY YOU ! There is no need to create such a thread.. What do you wish to achieve ? YOu want to create Fitna ( Mischief) over here ? ...

You being an indian will not accept our verdict so what's the point of bringing this thread onboard ??? .. We as pakistanis are not fooled by the temporary calming down or removal of war clouds. As far as who won the physcological warfare then that goes HANDS DOWN TO PAKISTANI MEDIA AND PAKISTAN DEFENCE REPRESENTATIVES AND PAKISTANI NATION. Not only did they all expose indian lies but humiliated your ugly face and intentions.

But i know what indian response is to come so completely pointless/ meaningless thread. You people are NEVER going to accept your mistakes,blunders,weaknesses,propaganda and you will NEVER ACKNOWLEDGE pakistanis outfoxing indians so BETTER TO CLOSE THIS THREAD.

My humble request to mods to close this thread before it creates needless mischief.

 

[Bilsher007]

HERE THIS IS THE LAST NAIL IN THE COFFIN FOR YOUR THREAD;


India Defeated In The First Round

Adm. Mike Mullen asked Pakistan for a guarantee that Pakistan Air Force will not respond to Indian surgical strikes. General Kayani is said to have responded with showing Mullen a photograph of an IAF Mirage-2000 locked by Pakistan Air Forces’ F-16 taken on December 13. ‘Next time, we’ll bring it down’, Mullen was told. To make sure the message was loud and clear, Pakistan Air Force jets started patrolling the skies in hot mode and a red-alert was issued throughout the country. The Indian war rhetoric has failed to impress Pakistan. Instead, the focus is now shifting to Indian intelligence agencies’ failure to put together credible evidence implicating Pakistan in the Mumbai attacks.
Dan Qayyum | PakistanKaKhudaHafiz.com
Sunday, 28 December 2008.
Ahmed Quraishi-Pakistan/Middle East politics, Iraq war, lebanon war, India Pakistan relations

It is best to win without fighting- Sun Tzu

With India and Pakistan standing eyeball to eyeball, it was India that blinked first, with its media and officials admitting defeat on the diplomatic front.

Times of India writes:

“While the de-escalation should soothe the tense nerves of the international community, it was being feared that Islamabad, by raising the bogey of war, may have edged out India’s concerns. By feeding fears of an imminent conflict between two nuclear-armed rivals, it had ensured that the focus would shift towards conflict prevention. Indian security experts noted that Gilani made it a point to mention that “our friends are persuading India against aggression”.
While the government persisted with reminders to Islamabad about unkept promises, independent security experts said Pakistan may have got away with almost no cost at all. “As of now, Pakistan has managed to divert attention from the Mumbai attacks to an India-Pak conflict,” said K Subrahmanyam.

It was diplomacy by fear, and Pakistan played it effectively. As it allowed passions to run high and let known terrorists join in the show of national belligerence, it was also playing victim. As part of the script, its foreign secretary, it now turns out, even summoned the Indian high commissioner in Islamabad, Satyabrata Pal, on Friday to lecture him on the need for India to bring down tensions.

The U.S. and China had on Friday asked India - in a clear sign of Pakistan’s success - to engage in a dialogue with Pakistan. It’s becoming increasingly evident that India has so far nothing to show for its diplomatic offensive in the aftermath of the Mumbai attacks.”How could things have gone so wrong, wonders Vir Sanghvi of the Hindustan Times:

“I am now coming round to the view that they’ve only gone wrong for us. They’ve gone very right for Pakistan. Islamabad has got exactly what it needs, and what it always wanted.
Consider what’s happening today. The operation in the tribal areas has stalled. The Taliban have sworn to back the Pakistan army against India. Troops have been moved to the Indian border. The incoming Obama administration is talking about appointing a special envoy for India and Pakistan.And forget about acting against those who organized the Bombay attacks. Pakistan isn’t even willing to hand over Dawood Ibrahim or Masood Azhar [Editor: Not in Pakistani custody anyway]. Moreover, Washington seems largely content with this state of affairs.

I don’t want to sound like a pessimist or a warmonger — especially since I have always applauded New Delhi’s moderation and restraint — but it is beginning to seem to me that Pakistan has out-maneuvered both India and America.”
M. K. Bhadrakumar writes at Asia Times Online:

“By gently holding out the threat to the U.S. that the Afghan operations would grievously suffer unless Washington restrained Delhi from precipitating any tensions on the India-Pakistan border, Islamabad seems to have neatly pole-vaulted over Rice to appeal straight to the Pentagon, where there is abiding camaraderie towards the Pakistani generals.With Pakistan’s recalcitrance and Mullen’s veiled threat of reopening the Kashmir file, a sense of frustration is gripping Delhi. Pakistan has ignored India’s tough posturing. The faltering Indian security agencies, which have been in a state of appalling decline in recent years, seem to have failed to put together any hard evidence of a Pakistani involvement in the Mumbai attacks.

All indications are that Pakistan is not impressed by the Indian rhetoric. It seems to think Indian politicians are grandstanding in an election year. But, just in case Delhi may spring a surprise, Pakistani army chief General Ashfaq Kayani has warned that the armed forces would give an equal response “within few minutes” if India carried out any surgical military strikes. “The armed forces are fully prepared to meet any eventuality, and the men are ready to sacrifice for their country,” he reportedly said.

Just as we predicted, an all out war seems to have been averted and Indian media and officials are admitting defeat.

China, Saudi Arabia and Iran have come out strongly in the last couple of days which saw an intense diplomatic effort by all parties to make it clear to India that they not only remain unconvinced of Delhi’s allegations, but also that any attack could have serious consequences for India and the region as a whole.

Pranab Mukherjee was made to do an embarrassing u-turn on India’s previous stance previously, admitting that terrorism - a global issue and not a bilateral one - should be fought jointly.
The Indian officials have also been made to backtrack from their earlier claims of deploying troops along the border with Pakistan.

Times of India, December 22nd:

Even as India refused to take the military option off the table while asking Pakistan to rein in the terrorists, the Indian Army’s and IAF’s quick reaction teams (QRTs) were deployed along the borders in the Western Sector.

“Runways, hangars, main roads, ammunition stores and other sensitive places have been provided with additional cover. Sophisticated radars are installed at a few air bases and we are keeping watch on each and every cross-border activity,” said an IAF personnel.

Indian forces were on regular firing exercises at locations like Lathi Firing Range in Jaisalmer, Mahsan in Bikaner, Suratgarh and Ganganagar.

India Today, December 27th:

India has informed Pakistan that it has not engaged in any sort of troop build-up along the frontier.

In response to the ‘deadline’ set by India and the threats from Sonia Gandhi and Pranab Mukherjee, Pakistan had gone on a diplomatic counter-offensive, briefing world powers and countries in the region on the deteriorating relations with India and the steps taken by it to address Indian concerns. Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir met the ambassadors of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council — the U.S., Britain, China, France and Russia. He also met ambassadors of Italy, Japan, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey soon after returning from France where he had gone for annual bilateral consultations. However, his most crucial meeting was with Indian High Commissioner Satyabrata Pal at the Foreign Office when he said that India should defuse the tension.

Mr. Pal was accompanied by his deputy Manpreet Vohra. The Indian side was categorically told that any ‘surgical strikes’ would be considered a declaration of war. India was urged to respond to Pakistan’s proposal for joint investigation into the Mumbai attacks.

According to sources, the Indian diplomats looked somber when they came out of the meeting.
As things stand, the possibility of war has been averted for now, which is being seen as a massive diplomatic victory for Pakistan.

This of course does not mean that we should let our guard down. In addition to the diplomatic counter-offensive, it was Pakistan Army’s seriousness that put India on the back foot.

Once the realization set in that any further attempts to enter Pakistan Airspace will be punished severely by the PAF, the Indians had gone to plan B, with Mullen asking for a guarantee that PAF will not respond to Indian surgical strikes.

General Kayani is said to have responded with showing Mullen a photograph of an IAF Mirage-2000 locked by Pakistan Air Forces’ F-16 taken on December 13th. ‘Next time, we’ll bring it down’, Mullen was told.

To make sure the message was loud and clear, Pakistan Air Force jets started patrolling the skies in hot mode and a red-alert was issued throughout the country.

Failing to get that guarantee, the chance of an Indian strike was reduced significantly. For them it was never about a full war. A few surgical strikes on pre-agreed locations would have been enough to relieve some of the pressure the Indian Government faces domestically. Pakistan Army on the other hand made it clear that any action from India would be taken as a declaration of war, and the response would be swift and decisive.

India faces humiliation now on the diplomatic front having failed to achieve anything from this standoff.

In its attempts to isolate Pakistan by building what it saw as a definitive case, it is India that stands alone on the diplomatic front and is left with begging the Iranians and Chinese to put pressure on Pakistan.

We can now expect an intense and sustained terrorism campaign in Pakistani cities in an attempt to destabilize the country along ethnic / sectarian lines - New Delhi’s time-tested method.

On the diplomatic front India will be lobbying hard to have the ISI (and Pakistan Army) declared as terrorist organizations.

We can also not rule out another false flag attack in the next few weeks.
Pakistanis need to stay united.

It’s not over yet.

Dan Qayyum moderates PakistanKaKhudaHafiz.com, one of the emerging Pakistani nationalist e-posts and a source for news from a Pakistani perspective.


SWEET DREAMS....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Merging thread with the existing thread related to Bilsher's post.

 

[Solomon2]

To make sure the message was loud and clear, Pakistan Air Force jets started patrolling the skies in hot mode and a red-alert was issued throughout the country.

So now Pakistan has created the impression that it is a country prepared to use conventional (and, since the target is India, nuclear) forces to protect its tools of terror. And you wonder why the world is aligning against you?

 

[Neo]

So now Pakistan has created the impression that it is a country prepared to use conventional (and, since the target is India, nuclear) forces to protect its tools of terror. And you wonder why the world is aligning against you?

Misinformation!

No country has alligned against Pakistan else India would already have attacked. Instead more world leaders are trying to defuse tensions between the two countries with USA even seeking assurance from Pakistan to not to retliate against possible Indians surgical strikes.

Meanwhile Interpol is still wating for the Indian report...which might never come

 

[Neo]

Indian media's war hysteria​

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's second meeting within a week's time with his three services chief in the wake of Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee's "all options on the table" threats against Pakistan, took the Indian media's unabated war mongering to its highest and nastiest pitch.

A Union minister, Jairam Ramesh, later complained that if the Prime Minister had met with the defence officials "that does not mean they were discussing war." An official statement later explained that the meeting discussed service matters, including the Pay Commission's recommendations, and that the Prime Minister was also briefed on the prevailing security situation.

If the bit about the prevailing security situation raised any doubts about the meeting's actual agenda, the minister tried to dispel it strongly as he went on to blame Indian, Pakistani and American media for creating hype about an imminent Pak-India war. He termed as ridiculous any talk of war and lamented that an unnecessary alarm was being created among the people even after the Prime Minister had issued a statement saying there is no question of a war. There is some tension along the border, he said, but no war-like situation.

So far as the international media, including America's is concerned, it cannot be accused of creating a hype by merely reporting the threats various Indian leaders have been hurling at Pakistan, given that the two countries are nuclear-armed and also happen to have a long history of conflict. And, of course, the Americans have also been worried about the repercussions of a Pak-India conflict on their own war in Afghanistan. Pakistani media had a responsibility to inform the people of possible consequences of India's increasingly belligerent rhetoric.

The closest it came to creating a hype was to criticise the government for not showing spine in the face of New Delhi's provocative propaganda campaign, and a mysterious menacing call to President Zardari that Islamabad insisted came from the Indian foreign minister's office. By and large, the media here underlined the need for restraint, highlighting the perils of war, which could spin out of control and result in a nuclear Armageddon. The case of Indian media, with honourable exceptions, has been the opposite. Taking its cue from the government leaders' anti-Pakistan rhetoric, large sections of the mainstream newspapers and television channels left no stone unturned to build war hysteria.

On Friday, the day the minister was vexing indignant about media hype, a Hindi language TV took the war mongering to new heights, presenting a ten-step military plan which would spell the destruction of Pakistan forcing it on its knees and begging for a cease-fire. Those who created that scenario to whip up war frenzy completely ignored the fact that even though the country they wanted to destroy might not be as strong as their own, but it did have a large, well-equipped professional military to retaliate.

And further that one to five ratio in numerical strength that exists between the two countries, is enough for defence. The worst case scenario would be mutual destruction. The government certainly understands the inherent dangers, but a lot of the right wing Hindu extremists, of whom there are aplenty in the Indian media and politics, do not. They want to use their country's growing strength and political clout to get even with history. Such elements need to be educated in civilised norms of behaviour. They must know that it would do the peoples of both India and Pakistan a lot of good if only they could get over their anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistan bias rooted in history, and build a hype for peace rather than war.