India concerned over Pak dam project

[Spring Onion]

You are completely wrong here unless proven otherwise.



Any sources/links Ms.Journalist?

GB

Oh ehhh as if you have forgotten Indian stealing Pakistani water last year to fill Baghliar dam even when the date for filling was already ended.

 

[rubyjackass]

Forget their names Janaji...
Read what they wrote. Ask someone from Gilgit or Baltistan, you will understand.
I quoted it only regarding the problems involved, not about India's objections. I am only helping you get the true picture.

 

[Nihat]

Nihat if Pakistan protests then there is some logic in it because its India who is stealing Pakistani water and violating Indus Water Treaty.


And BTW India had already many times blocked our water flowing from Himalayas.

I know about that , I heard from a number of sources about Pak wanting compensation from India on reducing flow during a certain period but unfortunately they have all been Pakistani Sources.

Can you back up your claim by providing technical data by a neutral expert , because India claims that the natural flow was reduced and it did nothing to block water.

Right now , the point of view for anyone solely depends on which media that person follows. The only neutral expert that was appointed never mention that India "stole" any water , all he came up with was that it was a technical mis-understanding or something like that.

 

[garibnawaz]

Oh ehhh as if you have forgotten Indian stealing Pakistani water last year to fill Baghliar dam even when the date for filling was already ended.

Since you claim to be a journalist, I expect you to back your claims with sources and links.

GB

 

[blueoval79]

Here is a old news article. That refutes Pakistans accusations.

The Hindu : Front Page : Baglihar dam: India claims moral victory


NEW DELHI: India claimed a "moral victory" on Monday in its dispute with Pakistan over the Baglihar dam, on the Chenab in Jammu and Kashmir, after the World Bank-appointed neutral expert held that India had not violated the Indus Waters Treaty, 1960. He also said the dam could be completed with slight modifications in design and without any impact on the 450 MW power component. There will, however, be "marginal" additional financial burden on India for the estimated Rs. 4,000 crore project, scheduled to be completed by early 2008.

There was visible relief in the Water Resources Ministry after it studied the report submitted by Raymond Lafitte, to the representatives of the two sides in Berne on Monday. The determinations made by the expert are final and binding.

The bone of contention was India's claim on the installation of gates on the upper surface spillway of the dam for managing floods and on the lower sluices for the regulation of floodwaters and sedimentation.

Mr. Lafitte held that India was well within its right to have "gated spillways" for regulation of floods and sedimentation as this was the modern technology recognised by the International Organisation on Large Dams. Pakistan had serious objections, and the last two schedules before the neutral expert were centred around this point.

Minister for Water Resources Saifuddin Soz said besides opposing the gated spillways, Pakistan raised objections — on the dam height, the water pondage, and the level of (water) intake (to move the turbines). The expert determined that India should reduce the freeboard in the height of the dam from 4.5 m to 3 m. India had, in any case, offered to do this before Pakistan referred the dispute to the World Bank.

Pakistan's third objection was to the width of the pondage that India could maintain in the run-of-the river project. India claimed a pondage of 37.5 million cubic metres (mcm). This has been reduced by the neutral expert to 32.58 mcm while upholding India's methodology of calculation and rejecting Pakistan's suggestion of a pondage of 6.22 mcm.

The fourth objection was to the level of intake for running the turbines. Against the level of intake at 818 m, an effective increase of 2 m has been determined by the neutral expert, and a further one metre allowed for decrease in pondage. "This is marginal," said Mr. Soz.

 

[Nihat]

that was a different dispute "blueoval" , the current demand for compensation is a different one , also Pak is free to appoint a neutral expert on this case - if the incident happened more than an year back I wonder what's stopping Pak from getting an expert on board.

 

[garibnawaz]

that was a different dispute "blueoval" , the current demand for compensation is a different one , also Pak is free to appoint a neutral expert on this case - if the incident happened more than an year back I wonder what's stopping Pak from getting an expert on board.

Pakistan went to World Bank who appointed neutral experts who gave verdict in India favor.

Now we have become water stealers.

Soar Grapes nothing else.

GB

 

[blueoval79]

This water stealing accusation is thrown upon India every now and then. Even after Pakistani government accepting. Both India and Pakistan accepted the judgments and derisions then.



Neutral Expert Clears Baglihar Dam

12 February 2007
The Indian Express

New Delhi: Curtains came down today on a 16-year-old Indo-Pak dispute over the 450 MW Baglihar dam proposed on the Chenab river by India. Swiss Neutral Expert Raymond Lafitte, appointed by the World Bank to consider Pakistan's objections to the project, has upheld India's design of the dam with minor modifications. Result: the verdict was claimed as a win-win by both India and Pakistan, construction of the dam can now continue - 40% has bee built - and is expected to be over in a year. Among other changes, Pakistan had been pressing for the height to be reduced - Lafitte has given it a 1.5-m reduction. On the other hand, he agreed with India's insistence on gated spillways, that is, outlets at the bottom of dam to flush the silt out. Pakistan had objected arguing that these were not permitted in the 1960 Indus Water Treaty and would give India undue leverage to flood the Punjab plains. But Lafitte rejected this saying that current technology - not available in 1960 - would ensure proper use of the water without this risk. 'The reduction of the height will, however, have no impact on power generation capacity of the 450 MW project,' Water Resources Minister Saifuddin Soz said welcoming the verdict. The modifications will only marginally add to the costs. Much to New Delhi's relief, the award, in which most of Pakistan's objections were rejected, will 'deeply influence all future interpretations of the treaty between the two countries,' Soz said soon after Lafitte gave his report to the two governments in Bern, Switzerland. The implication of this verdict lies in his agreement with the spillway design which wasn't around when the treaty was hammered out in 1960. These state-of-the-art gates are used for not just flood control but emptying of reservoirs and preventing sediment from choking inlet points. Lafitte, after a detailed analysis of the database of about 13,000 dams across the world and the International Commission on Large Dams, held that the site conditions of Baglihar require a gated spillway. He also held that in view of high flood discharge and heavy silt loads, the number, size and location of these gates was important and complied with the Indus Water treaty. This fact will help India strengthen its case in other water disputes in the Indus basin like the long-vexed Tulbul project. Pakistan's main objection to Baglihar was two-fold: It may help India hold and release large volumes of water drowning Pakistan's Punjab floodplains. Two, it makes the project a 'big dam' project which is not allowed in the treaty. In his report, the expert has observed: 'The present-day state of scientific and technical knowledge, not known in 1960, can and should be utilized in dealing with problems like heavy silt sediment that shorten the life of the plants'. This decision is final and binding on the two countries. This was the first time since the signing of the Indus Water Treaty 1960 that a neutral expert had been appointed. Pakistan had raised objections saying that certain features of the design did not conform to criteria specified in the treaty. During the 18-month period after his appointment, Lafitte held five meetings - two in Paris, one each in Geneva, London and Washington. He also visited the Baglihar site and its hydraulic model at Roorkee. Both countries made several written and oral submissions. Lafitte also agreed with India's calculation that 16,500 cubic metres of water (cumec) will flow per second into the dam as against Pakistan's figure of 14,900 cumec in view of climate change. Agreeing with India's methodology of calculating pondage - amount of water held in the dam - Lafitte arrived at a slightly lower value of 32.56 million cubic metres (MCM) than India's figure of 37.72 MCM. According to Pakistan, it should have been only 6.22 MCM. Another point of difference was the elevation of intakes for the turbines of the plant. The treaty required them to be located at the highest level. Pakistan wanted them to be raised by 7 metres, Lafitte said it should be raised by 2 metres. Though India does not agree to this, it says it does not impact power generation in any way. The height of the dam is the only aspect where Pakistan can claim partial victory. Lafitte said that the freeboard (height of the dam) could be reduced by 1.5 m. However, India had already offered possible reduction of freeboard to Pakistan even before the process of arbitration had started. Pakistan, in its statement today, claimed victory on this point. India maintains that all these minor changes are from calculations rather than basic principles. 'The entire Indian team has worked very hard in making a successful case,' said Soz. While Pakistan hired two foreign consultants to build its case, India had a battery of 18 technical experts, policymakers and lawyers. Will be ready by Dec: J&K Power Minister 'It's a win-win situation for India,' said J&K Power Minister Rigzin Jora. 'This will help us complete the project by December-end. Right from the beginning we have been maintaining that we have not violated the 1960 Indus Water Treaty. The judgment by neutral experts has proved us right.' Pak claims victory too 'It's a victory for Pakistan,' said Pakistan's Power & Water Minister Liaqat Ali Jatoi. 'Morally, India are bound, and have to respect the decision.' He said the neutral expert's ruling favoured Pakistan on three out of five counts.



J&K Can Plug Into More Power As Neutral Expert Clears Baglihar Dam

 

[Nihat]

I don't think there was anything like "In India's favor" , India was asked to reduce the ht. of the dam by 1.5 mt which was promptly done and Pakistani objections that any major dam cannot be constructed according to IWT were dispelled. Aside from that certain minor issues were sorted out and India went ahead and constructed the dam which was subsequently inaugurated by Manmohan Singh.

There was no technical or moral victory in that , it was just a dispute which delayed building of the dam by India.

This time the fuss is about Kisanganga project , below is a quote from a Pakistani daily

“Every project has its own nature ... India must not apply the decision in the Baglihar Dam dispute to the Kishanganga project.” app

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

If Pak claimed moral victory in Bhagilhar dispute then why would they shy away from applying the same in Kisanganga dispute.



Edit - for the 2nd time blueoval , this is NOT the current dispute , this one was resolved , the question is about Kisanganga

 

[Spring Onion]

Blue and gharib we are not talking about construction of Baglihar dam.


I am talking about Indian theft of Pakistani water last year to fill that dam even when the deadline for filling was over. This is just one case. India is also blocking Bangladeshi water.




Crisis deepens as India blocks Chenab flow




By Khaleeq Kiani

ISLAMABAD, Sept 14: India has closed Chenab water flow and as a result the shortage in Pakistan has become more severe.

Sources told Dawn on Sunday that the water blockade by India could adversely affect the Kharif crops, particularly cotton and sugarcane which were in maturity stage and required final watering, and the sowing of Rabi crops early next month.

They said that the Pakistan Indus Water Commission had taken up the matter with the federal government and convened a meeting on Tuesday to take stock of the situation and try to reach a diplomatic solution with New Delhi.

If the Chenab closure prolongs, the sowing of Rabi crops, particularly wheat, would be hit severely.

The government had to import more than two million tons of wheat this year despite a record production of more than 23 million tons.

The water shortage could force Pakistan to import more wheat next year, adding to the foreign exchange pressure and worsening its balance of payments crisis.

The authorities are already estimating more than 35 per cent shortage of irrigation water during the next Rabi season following a decline in the melting of snow in Northern Areas, higher withdrawals by provinces during Kharif and increased hydropower generation.

The sources said India’s unilateral decision to stop the Chenab flows had put additional pressure on the irrigation system of Pakistan, which used to receive more than 23,000 cusecs a day until last week, but it had now been brought down to almost zero.

Meanwhile, the Indus River System Authority (Irsa) has convened a meeting of its technical committee on Sept 20 to ascertain the overall water availability for the Rabi season, beginning on Oct 1.

Irsa’s advisory committee will meet on Sept 25 to finalise provincial shares for Kharif on the basis of estimates to be put forth by the technical committee, Irsa chairman Bashir Ahmed Dahar told Dawn.

Responding to a question, he said Irsa had powers and capacity to resolve the issues of water sharing and discharges in consultation with the provincial governments and it had never sought federal government’s intervention to prevail upon one province or the other to accept its decisions.

Exercising these powers, Irsa has increased releases from the Mangla reservoir for Punjab’s final watering by 10,000 cusecs to about 39,000 cusecs. On the other hand, Punjab continued to draw about 49,000 cusecs from Tarbela against its share of about 40,000 cusecs.

Once higher releases from Mangla reached the system, Punjab’s share from Tarbela would be reduced to 40,000 cusecs, the sources said. Irsa had asked Punjab last week to reduce withdrawal by 8,000 cusecs from Chashma-Jhelum canal, but it continued to draw about 18,000 cusecs till Sunday.

The sources said releases in CJ-Link would be reduced to 10,000 cusecs on Monday or Tuesday to preserve reasonable resources in the Indus System for Rabi crops.

Crisis deepens as India blocks Chenab flow -DAWN - Top Stories; September 15, 2008

---------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 PM ----------

Blue and gharib we are not talking about construction of Baglihar dam.


I am talking about Indian theft of Pakistani water last year to fill that dam even when the deadline for filling was over. This is just one case. India is also blocking Bangladeshi water.




Crisis deepens as India blocks Chenab flow




By Khaleeq Kiani

ISLAMABAD, Sept 14: India has closed Chenab water flow and as a result the shortage in Pakistan has become more severe.

Sources told Dawn on Sunday that the water blockade by India could adversely affect the Kharif crops, particularly cotton and sugarcane which were in maturity stage and required final watering, and the sowing of Rabi crops early next month.

They said that the Pakistan Indus Water Commission had taken up the matter with the federal government and convened a meeting on Tuesday to take stock of the situation and try to reach a diplomatic solution with New Delhi.

If the Chenab closure prolongs, the sowing of Rabi crops, particularly wheat, would be hit severely.

The government had to import more than two million tons of wheat this year despite a record production of more than 23 million tons.

The water shortage could force Pakistan to import more wheat next year, adding to the foreign exchange pressure and worsening its balance of payments crisis.

The authorities are already estimating more than 35 per cent shortage of irrigation water during the next Rabi season following a decline in the melting of snow in Northern Areas, higher withdrawals by provinces during Kharif and increased hydropower generation.

The sources said India’s unilateral decision to stop the Chenab flows had put additional pressure on the irrigation system of Pakistan, which used to receive more than 23,000 cusecs a day until last week, but it had now been brought down to almost zero.

Meanwhile, the Indus River System Authority (Irsa) has convened a meeting of its technical committee on Sept 20 to ascertain the overall water availability for the Rabi season, beginning on Oct 1.

Irsa’s advisory committee will meet on Sept 25 to finalise provincial shares for Kharif on the basis of estimates to be put forth by the technical committee, Irsa chairman Bashir Ahmed Dahar told Dawn.

Responding to a question, he said Irsa had powers and capacity to resolve the issues of water sharing and discharges in consultation with the provincial governments and it had never sought federal government’s intervention to prevail upon one province or the other to accept its decisions.

Exercising these powers, Irsa has increased releases from the Mangla reservoir for Punjab’s final watering by 10,000 cusecs to about 39,000 cusecs. On the other hand, Punjab continued to draw about 49,000 cusecs from Tarbela against its share of about 40,000 cusecs.

Once higher releases from Mangla reached the system, Punjab’s share from Tarbela would be reduced to 40,000 cusecs, the sources said. Irsa had asked Punjab last week to reduce withdrawal by 8,000 cusecs from Chashma-Jhelum canal, but it continued to draw about 18,000 cusecs till Sunday.

The sources said releases in CJ-Link would be reduced to 10,000 cusecs on Monday or Tuesday to preserve reasonable resources in the Indus System for Rabi crops.

Crisis deepens as India blocks Chenab flow -DAWN - Top Stories; September 15, 2008

 

[Spring Onion]

Chenab inflow ebbs as India withdraws water from Tawi

Saturday, March 28, 2009
By Khalid Mustafa

ISLAMABAD: India has dealt another blow to the Punjab’s water interests by establishing the Tawi-Ravi irrigation system some four years back, with New Delhi withdrawing 857 cusecs of water on a daily basis from the river, which is a Chenab tributary.

A senior official at the Water and Power Ministry revealed to The News on Friday the withdrawal of water by India would damage the irrigation of crops in Sialkot, Narowal and Shakargarh. Water from Tawi river’s left bank at the Bahu Fort point in Jammu is lifted 31 meters by pumps.

Daily water sheets issued by Irsa also jolted authorities concerned as Chenab’s historic flows drastically reduced from 18,800 cusecs to over 10,000 cusecs these days. When contacted, Pakistan’s Indus Waters Commissioner Syed Jamaat Ali Shah said he was aware that India had built the irrigation system. Under the treaty, he explained, India could build such schemes to irrigate 1,300,000 acres of land with western rivers’ water.

“But under the Indus Waters Treaty, India is bound to inform Pakistan six months before initiating any water scheme or dam on Pakistan’s rivers,” he pointed out. But Irsa and the Punjab irrigation department are perturbed over the decline in Chenab River from historic average flows.

Asked about the source of this sensitive information, the official replied that Arshad H Abbasi, director of the planning commission in the recent past and currently working as research fellow with SDPI (Sustainable Development Policy Institute), had informed the environment and water and power ministries through a letter.

The Indus System of Rivers comprises three eastern rivers - Sutlej, Bias and Ravi - and as many western rivers - Indus, Jhelum and Chenab. Under the Indus Waters Treaty of 1960, waters of the eastern rivers stand allocated to India and western rivers to Pakistan.

However, India interlinked Tawi and Ravi rivers with the Ravi-Tawi Lift Irrigation Project, withdrawing up to 857 cusecs of water daily from Tawi. Under the Indus Waters Treaty, Chenab water was allocated to Pakistan and Tawi is a major left bank tributary of the river, which originates from the lapse of the Kali Kundi glacier and the adjoining area southwest of Bhadarwah in Doda district.

The official said Abbasi also asked the government to check the irrigation provision as given in Annexure ìCî of the Indus Waters Treaty. The Ranbir and Partap canal systems were constructed by India before the signing of the Indus Waters Treaty. The agriculture use of water permitted to India from western rivers is 912,477 acres and over and above 642,000 acres of land being irrigated from the western rivers on the effective date ñ April 1, 1960.

Abbasi’s letter, a copy of which has been made available to The News, says with permissible withdrawals from Ranbir and Partap canals, India is entitled to water additional irrigated cropped area (ICA) of 70,000 acres from Indus, 150,000 from Jhelum and only 50,000 from Chenab.

Thus only 270,000 acres could be irrigated from western rivers but India has developed three major canals after 1960 - the Kashmir canal system, the high canal system in Jammu and the Ravi-Tawi Link irrigation system.

New Delhi submitted the justification that since India has not built any conservation storage on western rivers; rather it wastes about 35 million acres feet of water every year. India can develop irrigation by withdrawals from western rivers.

Moreover, the Igo-phey canal has been commissioned for irrigation in Leh and Kurbathang canal in Kargil. Some more canals under construction in the Ladakh region would surrender India’s right to build dams on Indus.

As per the treaty, only 0.15 million acres feet of water can be used for generating hydroelectric power on Indus and 0.35 MAF for irrigation. With the completion of these canals, India cannot build any dam on Indus.

However, at the same time, India initiated major hydropower projects on western rivers, particularly on Chenab, Pakal Dul, Kiru and Kawar, Bursar, Karthoi, Rattle and Shamnot hydropower projects.

Three main projects — Baglihar, Dul Hasti and Salal — have already been completed. If the projects, which are in the pipeline, get completed, then it would inflict an irreparable loss on Pakistan’s agriculture.

The official, quoting the letter, said Abbasi stressed enhancing the capacity of Pakistan’s Indus Waters Commission and making it digitised so that it could be run on modern lines.“This will help detect any misadventure of India; satellite altimetry technology is widely used now to measure surface water quantity.” The letter also argued that International bodies such as the World Bank ought to help the Indus Waters Commission build trust and avert any serious conflict between the two countries.

Chenab inflow ebbs as India withdraws water from Tawi

 

[blueoval79]

^^^^^

@Jana: where does this article mention Baglihar Dam...as claimed by you..

Blue and gharib we are not talking about construction of Baglihar dam.


I am talking about Indian theft of Pakistani water last year to fill that dam even when the deadline for filling was over. This is just one case. India is also blocking Bangladeshi water.

Wow,
Suddnly there is a change in track...you claim of theft at Baglihar...but the news item speaks something else...

Oh ehhh as if you have forgotten Indian stealing Pakistani water last year to fill Baghliar dam even when the date for filling was already ended.

 

[Nihat]

Jana , I wish you could provide a NEUTRAL SOURCE to water theft and violation incidents , last I checked that Dawn and Jang are not exactly neutral , they have an obvious nationalistic bias (as do Indian sources).

If you want to prove a point then do it the proper way , look up the IWT draft , find the requisite article mentioning tributary water sharing system and permissible constructions , Cu units of water which can be withdrawn . I think the claim to water is relative to needs on the other side of the border.

Taking que from above posts I gather that you are a journalist by profession , if so I'm sure you know about bias of national daily's. In case you are unaware of the complexities of water distribution of IWT then please refrain from random claims as it needlessly provokes fanboys.

Also , India and Banglasdesh have outstanding issues but keep them out of this thread , there is a separate one for that.

 

[paritosh]

can somebody explain to me...don't we the Indians have another dam on the Indus...I believe the Baghliar?
so now...Pakistan would construct a dam further up near the source glacier is that right?
if that is the case....then it would be like two serial switches on a transmission line...with the dams acting like switches....one under Pakistani control the other under Indian...which would have an 'And gating' effect...meaning that both have to be regulated to regulate the end water...I hope I am being clear...
the Pakistani water problem in the areas of Punjab fed by the Baghliar would not be solved...but maybe...you might have the power to regulate the flow to the Baghliar...and if the indus flowing into the Baghliar is reduced in water volume...the leser water would flow out as even the Baghliar has it's purpose of generating electricity...
correct me if I am wrong.

 

[blueoval79]

can somebody explain to me...don't we the Indians have another dam on the Indus...I believe the Baghliar?
so now...Pakistan would construct a dam further up near the source glacier is that right?
if that is the case....then it would be like two serial switches on a transmission line...with the dams acting like switches....one under Pakistani control the other under Indian...which have an 'And gating' effect...meaning that both have to be regulated to regulate the end water...I hope I am being clear...
the Pakistani water problem in the areas of Punjab fed by the Baghliar would not be solved...but maybe...you might have the power to regulate the flow to the Baghliar...and if the indus flowing into the Baghliar is reduced in water volume...the leser water would flow out as even the Baghliar has it's purpose of generating electricity...
correct me if I am wrong.

Baglihar is on Chenab River....A tributary.

Indus has 6 Tributaries ... Zanskar, Sutlej, Jhelum, Ravi, Beas, and Chenab, 3 with Pakistan...3 with India.

The dam by Pakistan on Indus will be more like a Parallel switch to Baglihar on Chenab.


Baglihar Dam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia