India cannot defeat Pakistan militarily

[Edevelop]

Tuchiye, we aspire to be a developed country and we are working to achieve this. Tumko samajhne me bhi problem hai yeh mujhe abhi abhi pata chala.

Good luck!

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[PDF]

For once I wish there was a logical discussion on atleast what matters both side could agree to cooperate on and work forward from thereon. Here in a public forum atleast if not in policy circles. Atleast a thought experiment on what could be done now to the benefit of each other.

This is the only part we can work on.

Is it possible for smaller, individual groups to focus on reconciling the positions, and evolving workable solutions, and then trading up the size of these groups to the point where there is a definite public opinion backing for those initiatives?

@M. Sarmad
@Krptonite

PDF for all the trolls present, also have some intellectuals who can despite the challenges of an internet forum, can present the case in an amicable manner.
I don't mind a thread dedicated to have PDF Forum Indo-Pak dialogue, but only if both side has sufficient members and sincere members to participate in.

There are not many Indian title holders active here anymore and most members lack any substantial quality in their posts so we will first have to invite esteemed volunteers for Track 'III' diplomacy.

Umm Anyone up to participate in a dialogue focusing on Indo-Pak past, present and future relations with an objective to find a practical way for detente in the otherwise doomed relations. Historical evidences, political considerations and military doctrines will be of particular interest while most posts with sufficient referencing to put forward an argument will help in keeping the exchanges informative.
@Krptonite @Joe Shearer @Ssan @M. Sarmad @waz @Armchair @saiyan0321 @peagle @The Eagle @The Accountant and others.
feel free to recommend anyone too if you think they can contribute to the subject at hand.
If we get a good response to the invitation, it will be good to have 3-4 members each side putting forward the case of the respective nations.

 

[Areesh]

The loss of an F16 is too big a national embarrassment isn't it? Was the F16 pilot Killed in action termed as "Doosra Banda?"

Hey @Joe Shearer you liked this post

You really believe this is true??

If Yes then please confirm so that I can ask other Pakistani members to not waste time in answering you since they are writing such long articles to answer you

Thank you

 

[PDF]

“We are superior to Pakistan in military and industrial power,” With the passage of time Pakistan will “accept a settlement which we consider fair, whether in Kashmir or elsewhere”.

He wasn't wrong. Even the dispute of Israel in UN is getting sidelined. The more the delay, the lesser the possibility of any peaceful resolution of the conflicts.

 

[Krptonite]

Umm Anyone up to participate in a dialogue focusing on Indo-Pak past, present and future relations with an objective to find a practical way for detente in the otherwise doomed relations. Historical evidences, political considerations and military doctrines will be of particular interest while most posts with sufficient referencing to put forward an argument will help in keeping the exchanges informative.
@Krptonite @Joe Shearer @Ssan @M. Sarmad @waz @Armchair @saiyan0321 @peagle @The Eagle @The Accountant and others.
feel free to recommend anyone too if you think they can contribute to the subject at hand.
If we get a good response to the invitation, it will be good to have 3-4 members each side putting forward the case of the respective nations.

We cud begin with a single scenario and postulate forward. For example, despite the acrimony, what would be the consequences if free economic trade was unhindered or open regardless between us.

Or

What if the artistic intellengensia from both sides could perform unhindered in each others country. Would it help? Or ultimately worthless?

Or

What would the economic implications of Saarc being an entity similar to the european union.

A single topic has the advantage of keeping the discussion cohesive instead of scattered.

 

[waz]

He wasn't wrong. Even the dispute of Israel in UN is getting sidelined. The more the delay, the lesser the possibility of any peaceful resolution of the conflicts.

The military brass have given up on Kashmir. It's a fact and people need to realise this now.
What happens after only the Lord knows. What we do know is India sits pretty much secure and this is fine for them. They'll probably offer the international border solution again for the LOC.

 

[Chute]

the person calling himself PDF Staff was very reasonable

He has a good funny bone that is worth tickling if you get the chance to.

Rescue ranger, fatman, rampage and couple others are still hanging around here from time to time too (in addition to the ones I mentioned earlier).

Haven't seen Niaz, Chak bamu and some others lately.... I guess they have called it quits from here for most part.

This place could have continued to be really great with just a little common sense applied and stuck to.

 

[Areesh]

Haven't seen Niaz, Chak bamu and some others lately....

Chak bamu used to struggle with Mian Nawaz Sharif for civilian supremacy

Now since civilians are getting abducted and getting tortured he has now retired since his cause has achieved success

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hey @Joe Shearer you liked this post

You really believe this is true??

If Yes then please confirm so that I can ask other Pakistani members to not waste time in answering you since they are writing such long articles to answer you

Thank you

Yes, I liked the entire post; it is difficult to like three lines in a post, ignore two lines or dislike them, and return again to liking the remaining two lines.

It is not necessary that I liked the two sentences you brought out.

As for the heroes who want to put me to the sword, leave them alone. If that keeps their hormones in good order, so be it.

@Joe Shearer

With regards to Kashmir, let's involve the people of Kashmir into the discussion as they are the direct involved party, much more than Pakistan or India.

@waz is one from Kashmir if my memory serves me right. I think we need to hear Kashmiris in all parts of J & K region to actually respect the democratic rights of the people.

PDF has many members hailing from our side of Kashmir (GB included in it). I do invite any and all from your side of Kashmir.

P.S: @waz kindly approve my username change request, mate. Thanks!

I will not oppose you, but I am not sure that this is a good idea in a generic sense.

All the Kashmiris that you have here are from Azad Kashmir/Azad Kashmir. They are already committed to a standpoint, and it is unlikely that they will be open to alternative standpoints.

waz is always an exception. I can deny him nothing.

Why would India need to win and win what ? Azad Kashmir?


All the rethoric of getting back the remaining part of Kashmir is just for domestic consumption. Everyone knows that trying to get back a portion of unproductive hostile population so different from us is a stupid idea..

I always felt that it is the Pakistanis who are morally burdened to liberate their deprived brothers and sisters on the Indian side of Kashmir.

Question should be whether Pakistan is capable of doing anything to support their jugular vein Kashmir - militarily, financially, diplomatically or any other means.. rethoric annual UN General Assembly speeches does not count..

Good points.

Please stay connected.

 

[Joe Shearer]

In 2014, Prime Minister Narendra Modi promised that open defecation would be eradicated in India. Eight years after the government's promise, India still lacks toilets and the country's sanitary problems are not getting any better

I couldn't care a fying fluck for what that man promised or did not. As far as the programme is concerned, it was worthwhile, and there has been progress. What you think or do not think doesn't matter, and your opinions are likely to get the same reception as Chhappanincheswar.

Good luck in your future career of inspecting drains.

We cud begin with a single scenario and postulate forward. For example, despite the acrimony, what would be the consequences if free economic trade was unhindered or open regardless between us.

Or

What if the artistic intellengensia from both sides could perform unhindered in each others country. Would it help? Or ultimately worthless?

Or

What would the economic implications of Saarc being an entity similar to the european union.

A single topic has the advantage of keeping the discussion cohesive instead of scattered.

By all means, explore this further. Please take the lead on this matter of subject selection.

He has a good funny bone that is worth tickling if you get the chance to.

Rescue ranger, fatman, rampage and couple others are still hanging around here from time to time too (in addition to the ones I mentioned earlier).

Haven't seen Niaz, Chak bamu and some others lately.... I guess they have called it quits from here for most part.

This place could have continued to be really great with just a little common sense applied and stuck to.

Would you, although a furriner, care to join in?

@PDF informs me that he will have difficulty finding 'pak' Pakistanis, as many of the most suitable people have dual nationality - oooooh, @saiyan0321, where art thou?

That gives me the malevolent idea that we might as well add more nationalities to this, ah, multicultural alignment.

Aah, I am so wicked that sometimes I scare myself.

 

[Joe Shearer]

He has a good funny bone that is worth tickling if you get the chance to.

Rescue ranger, fatman, rampage and couple others are still hanging around here from time to time too (in addition to the ones I mentioned earlier).

Haven't seen Niaz, Chak bamu and some others lately.... I guess they have called it quits from here for most part.

This place could have continued to be really great with just a little common sense applied and stuck to.

@niaz Sahib and @fatman17 are my icons. If they take part, I will frankly feel inhibited.

My third icon is fortunately absent on nappy duty, and the very respected member of the military should not be involved in discussions with shady Indians; much though his presence would lend weight, it may not be fair to inveigle him into this imbroglio.

Rescue Ranger and Rampage are always welcome, as far as I am concerned. If Krptonite's idea about artistic freedom and flexibility comes into play, Rampage may be interested, although his metier is in the upper reaches of western classical music; he usually leaves us scrabbling behind him, trying to keep up with the most inelegant leaps and bounds.

Last, what about our polite and polished Sanghi? I bet he is looking at these posts.

 

[M. Sarmad]

He wasn't wrong. Even the dispute of Israel in UN is getting sidelined. The more the delay, the lesser the possibility of any peaceful resolution of the conflicts.

Had USSR not used the veto (in clear violation of the UN principles of the charter) to strike down the UN Resolution of 20th Feb 1957, the Kashmir issue would have been resolved long ago. Russians used "veto" many times to avoid discussion on Kashmir in the Security Council. As a matter of fact, the U.N. was virtually elbowed out of the Kashmir dispute by Russia. Similarly, since 1972, the US has vetoed over 53 anti-Israel resolutions in the UN Security Council, providing diplomatic cover for its ally.

This scenario is marked by the involvement of influential global bullies backing regional bullies in order to further their objectives of global dominance. This strategy has been pursued despite a disregard for established international law and has resulted in the erosion of the effectiveness and utility of the United Nations.

 

[Battlion25]

I feel exactly the same way for you. You won't get a place to hide. You will be cleansed from your sins before your last breath. At the end it is Dharma that triumphs by uprooting Adharm.
Your end is near.

I like the way you explain your fantasies. Bund fatey tou fatey but Hawabazi na chhutey.

Thats why i am a big fan of Lai(bum) Topi. He is also made of same material like you. "Eik din duniya ke sarey decision Ishwarpura (Islamabad) mein baith ke liye jayengay.“ Alhamdolelo, Ola hu Uber

You will be laying on your back and seeing stars after an unforseen KO lands on your chin which have already landed on you many times this time won't be different either.. I will be awaiting for you

 

[Chute]

@niaz Sahib and @fatman17 are my icons. If they take part, I will frankly feel inhibited.

My third icon is fortunately absent on nappy duty, and the very respected member of the military should not be involved in discussions with shady Indians; much though his presence would lend weight, it may not be fair to inveigle him into this imbroglio.

Rescue Ranger and Rampage are always welcome, as far as I am concerned. If Krptonite's idea about artistic freedom and flexibility comes into play, Rampage may be interested, although his metier is in the upper reaches of western classical music; he usually leaves us scrabbling behind him, trying to keep up with the most inelegant leaps and bounds.

Last, what about our polite and polished Sanghi? I bet he is looking at these posts.

Probably best to set up an inbox group with the interested parties (that you tag and enquire maybe using the old thread so they have a reference if its interesting to them) that you vet highly....so this thread doesn't get derailed too much.

From what I have seen, that war simulation stuff needs much smaller set piece engagements to get results first to know the limitations and lessons for improvement (to take to larger scales).

These smaller practice chunks can be done with folks like panzerkiel and both sides working together with all blindfolds off initially, just to get comfy with the system and process (and this of course can be quite a multinational effort, the people just need to know their beans and be trusted by the earlier group that initiated this previously etc)

....these smaller results (a few each for air, land and sea) will also spur more interest here for others to pitch in time and contribute to the next tiers of scale where we try to introduce blindfolds, working groups, combined arms and so on.

It was way too much to start with a full on war simulation given the constraints of both the program and the process.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Probably best to set up an inbox group with the interested parties (that you tag and enquire maybe using the old thread so they have a reference if its interesting to them) that you vet highly....so this thread doesn't get derailed too much.

This would include the topics being suggested by @PDF and by @Krptonite. Let that get settled by mutual discussion and conversation.