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India cannot defeat Pakistan militarily

Trained and armed by India. The Khalistanis were entirely Punjabi, the Kashmiris were entirely Kashmiri, etc etc.
You forget that the core of the Mukti Bahini was the rebellious East Pakistan policemen, including the East Pakistan border police. They had arms and training long before they reached out to us. Their leaders were captains, majors and colonels from the regular Pakistan Army. The Air Force elements were practically immobilised at the outset of the repression because the technicians were mainly Bengali, and were hostile.

The Kashmiris were definitely not Kashmiri; only a very small percentage was. The vast majority were found to be from parts of Pakistan with no connection to Kashmir.
 
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The Kashmiris were definitely not Kashmiri; only a very small percentage was. The vast majority were found to be from parts of Pakistan with no connection to Kashmir.
Yeah, I assume they carried Pakistani IDs to help the Indian forces find out right? Or are Pakistani DNA codons arranged district-wise?
 
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They are buried in Kashmir with Pakistan flags draping their graves and pro Kashmiri slogans. Wani, for example, was from a wealthy Kashmiri family.
Check the numbers. A handful. Regrettable that they took the path they did, but a handful. As for the Pakistan flags, as long as the separatists were active, under Geelani and the Hurriyat, these gestures were organised (funded by money that appeared mysteriously from Nepal) by them. It is known to all that Geelani's family members were comfortably esconced within Indian institutions and organisations, even as ordinary people were being told that they should have nothing to do with the Indian system.

He confessed on video.
If an Indian organisation parallel to the ISI had you in custody, we would have your sworn testimony that you were the daughter of King Charles III.

He confessed on video.
If an Indian organisation parallel to the ISI had you in custody, we would have your sworn testimony that you were the daughter of King Charles III.

That is, according to India. Pakistan says he was caught in Balochistan, Pakistan.
Did you expect the ISI to say anything different? Have you not enough evidence from within Pakistan, from Pakistani citizens, about how facts have been distorted, or fabricated, and how false cases have been instituted against citizens whose only fault was to criticise the establishment?

How naive can we be, on hearing these claims?

Repeating your version of events will only lead you to buying your own propaganda. Not a single country in the world recognizes India's sovereignty over Kashmir, and Kashmiri discontent will not disappear regardless of how much India demonizes the locals and calls them Pakistani terrorists.
LOL.

They don't have to.

What constitutes India is what India holds and administers. India has claims to other territory, but does not wage wars to recover those.

Yeah, I assume they carried Pakistani IDs to help the Indian forces find out right? Or are Pakistani DNA codons arranged district-wise?
There has been a variety of clues, not just Pakistani IDs, which were discovered in some cases. In others, bills, receipts for payment, bus tickets, clothing labels all have been used.
 
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Your inference is correct but partial. Once there is an exchange of fire, even an exchange of fire by rifles, what prevents an exchange of fire by machine guns? What prevents an escalation to exchange of fire between artillery? At what point will multi-barrel rocket launchers, effectively artillery without gun barrels, be legitimised?

Once missiles are exchanged, irrespective of their respective payloads, there is a thin wall, even no wall, between conventional and nuclear war.

The situation therefore is that the tipping point is not at the moment when conventional-load bearing missiles are fired by both sides at each other, but at the moment when there is an exchange of fire, through whatever weapons, down to a pistol or a revolver.
In any armed conflict, there is always an escalation laddar from small fire arms to larger caliber and so on. And there is some rationality behind that thus most respected militaries follow that. Skipping the steps have serious implications to which I was trying to bring the attention towards and reasoned that.

The first bullet is not the tipping point but can be initialization of a large conflict. Of course in any war, missiles and other weapons system have a place, but certainly they are not to be utilized as was India using in the most recent conflict.
This will be inevitable, when one administration is irresponsible and keeps encouraging brain-washed irregular armed men to infiltrate the LOC and start attacking the administrative and LEOs of the other side.
Attacking LEAs of an enemy state within an INTERNATIONALLY recognized disputed territory is much less of a substantial complaint over state actor targeting not only Pakistanis but Chinese in terror and other actions in an well established, recognized territory of a nation.

Unless, you too like the Bhakts deny the status of Jammu and Kashmir region; for which case, I don't think any reasonable discussion can be carried forward.
What Pakistan is doing today is not setting a match to gunpowder only because of the natural disinclination of a belligerent, bigoted administration to escalate matters, wishing to concentrate on internal affairs within India, and confining itself to token gestures not amounting to an irrevocable progression by either side. Only the unstable BJP is keeping the situation stable.
In my understanding, this is a grossly wrong reading if anyone sincerely thinks the govt wished to concentrate on internal matters of India and by its actions, keeping the situation stable.
The danger lies in the belief on the Pakistani side that they can do anything at all, and the only retaliation will be cosmetic and tightly bound to visibly limited goals.
I do not think Pakistan side think they can do anything without any significant retaliation. Even in it's all adventures, there is calculated risk.
All the concessions so far have been made, explicitly sometimes, implicitly always, by India. The no-first-use policy is an example. If it is taken as unstable and subject to change, that would normally be a signal for the opposed state to bring things to a screeching halt, and for deep introspection, perhaps even to serious and permanent negotiations to ensure a permanent peace. Do we see that? Or do we see that it is not taken as an unstable situation, but as a stable situation, licensing a four times aggressor state to continue aggressive moves?
That is quite a view to look at things, and perhaps anyone from Indian side is not at fault especially when the Indian state does not even communicate on any issues in recent history; which leads such perception and mis-understanding. I am sure, just as you, Pakistan too has much legitimate concerns and point of view regarding these and also other issues. For any negotiations or any way forward, do you think there can be even serious or proper negotiations without even having the dialogue?

And until both sides start talking, all accusations contribute to nothing meaningful.

A four time aggressive state on DISPUTED territory. Sir, let's not forget that Pakistan for most of the major aggressions you have pointed out acted in disputed territory, while India acted more in non-disputed territory. Let's keep that in mind when putting forward out reservations.
Have you, as a member of the staff, stopped the posting of pictures of that same prisoner of war bloodied by assault by civilians who captured him?
I have also posted pictures of him drinking tea, being treated by military doctors, stated his video statements of good treatment by Pakistan. I hope you also came across them.

And le t's just say I have not been the most responsible member on the platform and do not represent the PDF administration in all postings. I have quite often trolled and my past and recent posts can be evident on al kinds of topics.

However, in any constructive discussion such as one having with you, I have tried to refrain myself from such behavior. I do am guilty as charged but perhaps the intention was to silence the Indian trolls lurking around and not to disappoint esteemed and respectable members such as yourself.
Has anyone commented unfavourably on the treatment of Kambampati Nachiketa, and his report that his captivity was difficult to describe in words, and that death would have been preferable to that captivity?

What was expected from the Indian side, considering the past history of treatment of Indian prisoners of war, in sharp contrast to the treatment of Pakistani prisoners of war?
We can debate about the alleged ill-treatment of Kambampati Nachiketa just as of Sepoy Maqbool Hussain as PoW from 1965s when I dare say, our respective militaries were much more professional regarding PoW. I am not dismissing all your legitimate complaints, but I also hope you are not disregarding that Pakistan too has legitimate complaints and both can blame the other. Thus, I advocate engagement which Pakistan has never shied away from unlike India.

Terrorism is as much a concern for Pakistan as it is for India if not more, and we hope India does not use any excuse to run away from dialogue. Pakistan is open to talking on ALL concerns of India and we hope India also reciprocates that including on terrorism and disputed territories.

When we hear that India was posturing, it is difficult to understand. What must be done to convince Pakistan that these are serious positions, that can be shaken, but only by egregious ill-treatment of prisoners and by sustained assault on one nation by another, using all means available, including suicide squads being landed in one country's metropolis to kill over a hundred civilians?
I do not think Pakistani state covertly and otherwise ever intended or approved to target civillians in the 2008 Mumbai attacks you mentioned. Do also keep in mind that Pakistan itself was fighting the menace of terrorism almost at it's peak inside Pakistan and had trouble dealing with that at that time. And I am sure Pakistan has a case of Samjohta Express and otherwise which took place a few years before the metropolis attack; and Pakistan is waiting for due Judicial process to occur; I might inform that similar to Indian courts, Pakistan judicial process involves beside papers documents and graphical evidence human witnesses for the court to take the case forward. We hope India can cooperate as both Pakistan and India want to get to the end of it. We also wonder the status of Samjhota Express case where Pakistani Victims were the victims inside India, the incident also occured inside India and the case is also inside India.

I will reply further later.
 
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That is, according to your government. Let's not touch upon our dossier about India's support to TTP, which murdered 143 school children in one day.
We had nothing to do with what terrorists of Pakistani origin, with not a single Indian around them, perpetrated within Pakistan.

You should ask the parent organisation, the Taliban, for explanations. It has become public knowledge that the Taliban and the TTP are one and the same, with different areas of operation. The distinction between 'good' Taliban and 'bad' Taliban was made by Pakistan, and this is regretted today.

Nothing to do with us.

Immediately after that foul massacre, India expressed sorrow.

Not one such expression of regret, not one act of human sadness or grief from the other side. Only bragging and newspaper headlines.

certainly they are not to be utilized as was India using in the most recent conflict.
Did you perhaps mean as India did not use?

The initial spark, in our view, was the Pulwama incident. If you had read the public statements made at that time, there was a (professed) resolution in the Indian political leadership to pursue the matter with seriousness and intent. Missiles were an option from the first day, albeit missiles with conventional warheads. The targets were the same; the mode changed to air attack on the advice of the military.
 
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certainly they are not to be utilized as was India using in the most recent conflict.
Did you perhaps mean as India did not use?

The initial spark, in our view, was the Pulwama incident. If you had read the public statements made at that time, there was a (professed) resolution in the Indian political leadership to pursue the matter with seriousness and intent. Missiles were an option from the first day, albeit missiles with conventional warheads. The targets were the same; the mode changed to air attack on the advice of the military.
Attacking LEAs of an enemy state within an INTERNATIONALLY recognized disputed territory is much less of a substantial complaint over state actor targeting not only Pakistanis but Chinese in terror and other actions in an well established, recognized territory of a nation.
If you believe that cross-LOC attacks are legitimate, what, indeed, are we discussing?

The absurd proposition levelled against your own citizens, for instance, that accused a Chinese overseer of blasphemy and assaulted him? These are incidents that won international attention. How now are we suddenly the villains of the piece?

Unless, you too like the Bhakts deny the status of Jammu and Kashmir region;
What status are you referring to? That Pakistan is in occupation of a portion of Kashmir, a state that acceded to India, is a reality. That Pakistan created a dispute where none existed, citing the Standstill Agreement after having sent in irregular armed murderers, is also a reality. That Pakistan rejected the initial Security Council agreement is again a reality.

Where do we stop? Where Pakistani wishes it to stop? After three failed efforts to achieve its ends through clandestine armed action?

In my understanding, this is a grossly wrong reading if anyone sincerely thinks the govt wished to concentrate on internal matters of India and by its actions, keeping the situation stable.
Then our understanding differs, and that is all right. It differs partially because of your misreading of what I said.

I did not say that it was BJP policy to keep the relations with Pakistan stable. I said that their focus and concentration was, and is, on internal affairs, and as a result, they neglected the Pakistan situation. One reason for its public declaration that it would have nothing to do with Pakistan as long as the situation continued with regard to the support of terrorism by Pakistan.

It was not a deliberate decision to keep matters stable; it became the default position due to Indian politics.
 
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I do not think Pakistan side think they can do anything without any significant retaliation. Even in it's all adventures, there is calculated risk.
Again, very much the point.

Pakistan calculates risk, and invariably, without fail, finds that risk insufficient to deter its adventures.

Your analysis, not mine, although I thoroughly agree.
 
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That is quite a view to look at things, and perhaps anyone from Indian side is not at fault especially when the Indian state does not even communicate on any issues in recent history; which leads such perception and mis-understanding. I am sure, just as you, Pakistan too has much legitimate concerns and point of view regarding these and also other issues. For any negotiations or any way forward, do you think there can be even serious or proper negotiations without even having the dialogue?
Absolutely not. There HAS to be dialogue.

May I now, take this opportunity of pointing to an aspect of Pakistani behaviour that is downright exasperating?

We constantly have this complaint that today, India is being unreasonable, that it was far easier to talk to India earlier. So whose fault is that? How did Pakistan treat the moderate, even accommodating government of, say, Manmohan Singh? For that entire administration, R&AW was restricted in action, and kept away from Pakistan. The reward? A straightforward and peace-seeking man was made to make a reference to Balochistan being admissible for discussion, a remark made in innocence of the outcome, naive, perhaps, but exploited to the full by the Pakistani ministry. The next thing we knew, an empty folder was brandished in public to prove to the world that India was guilty of interference in Baloch affairs.

You should think of how Pakistan flouted every peace effort, or initiative, or even the initial willingness of this dreadful government to allow free access to Indian facilities to needy Pakistani citizens. You should recall the Kargil adventure, what it entailed, the way Indians were treated after capture, and the way Pakistanis were recommended to their higher echelons for gallantry deserving of recognition (something that reached a count of ten or more, when I used to keep count in the past, all from India, not even on a single occasion from Pakistan).

If today, you face a hostile, unrelenting atmosphere in New Delhi, you have earned it. Even those of us who want peace with Pakistan, and friendly relations with her citizens, have given up, temporarily, as we are unable to sustain the barrage of insults from our countrymen for being Pakistan's patsies.

I would love the situation to improve, but এক হাতে তালি বাজে না।
 
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No. Pakistan does not foster anyone. Especially not terrorists because only freedom fighters operate there.
Imran Khan accepting the reality himself.

Internet is full of interviews by Musharraf and few previous Paksiatn heads accepting their role in training and abetting Non-state actors as a tool in the neighbourhood. Few of them have turned their attention on Pakistan and today Paksiatn is a victim of its own accord.

Any infiltration of men and material from Paksiatn to India isn’t likely to be good for Paksiatn. India has enough clout to make life difficult for Paksiatn.
 
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Absolutely not. There HAS to be dialogue.

May I now, take this opportunity of pointing to an aspect of Pakistani behaviour that is downright exasperating?

We constantly have this complaint that today, India is being unreasonable, that it was far easier to talk to India earlier. So whose fault is that? How did Pakistan treat the moderate, even accommodating government of, say, Manmohan Singh? For that entire administration, R&AW was restricted in action, and kept away from Pakistan. The reward? A straightforward and peace-seeking man was made to make a reference to Balochistan being admissible for discussion, a remark made in innocence of the outcome, naive, perhaps, but exploited to the full by the Pakistani ministry. The next thing we knew, an empty folder was brandished in public to prove to the world that India was guilty of interference in Baloch affairs.

You should think of how Pakistan flouted every peace effort, or initiative, or even the initial willingness of this dreadful government to allow free access to Indian facilities to needy Pakistani citizens. You should recall the Kargil adventure, what it entailed, the way Indians were treated after capture, and the way Pakistanis were recommended to their higher echelons for gallantry deserving of recognition (something that reached a count of ten or more, when I used to keep count in the past, all from India, not even on a single occasion from Pakistan).

If today, you face a hostile, unrelenting atmosphere in New Delhi, you have earned it. Even those of us who want peace with Pakistan, and friendly relations with her citizens, have given up, temporarily, as we are unable to sustain the barrage of insults from our countrymen for being Pakistan's patsies.

I would love the situation to improve, but এক হাতে তালি বাজে না।
Joe i feel this tu tu mai mai is a long and ardous path shared by both nationstates. If posters from both sides sat down, I'd wager they could list out all such shenanigans perpetuated by both sides right uptill our inception and maybe even before then.

For a layman, it seems whenever there was a desire for peace overtures from one side they have been met with the complete opposite from the other.

How to get out of this logjam?. While war might been the opium Pdf posters run on it remains an undeniable fact that we would face significant challenges projecting globally if trouble at our fence keeps requiring our undivided attention and resources.

One opined that this is the exact calculus the Chinese have been pondering on, to divert our resources from the IN to the IA and their activities at our border may attest to that.

For once I wish there was a logical discussion on atleast what matters both side could agree to cooperate on and work forward from thereon. Here in a public forum atleast if not in policy circles. Atleast a thought experiment on what could be done now to the benefit of each other.

Blaming each other achieves nothing and nation states do not have the luxury of ignoring their neighbors.

P.S. It is with sad news that i might add, the resolution we undertook on this forum saw either an exodus of its members or more entertainingly an ironic immediate violation by one of its founding members subsequently followed by all if not most who remained.
 
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Joe i feel this tu tu mai mai is a long and ardous path shared by both nationstates. If posters from both sides sat down, I'd wager they could list out all such shenanigans perpetuated by both sides right uptill our inception and maybe even before then.

For a layman, it seems whenever there was a desire for peace overtures from one side they have been met with the complete opposite from the other.

How to get out of this logjam?. While war might been the opium Pdf posters run on it remains an undeniable fact that we would face significant challenges projecting globally if trouble at our fence keeps requiring our undivided attention and resources.

One opined that this is the exact calculus the Chinese have been pondering on, to divert our resources from the IN to the IA and their activities at our border may attest to that.

For once I wish there was a logical discussion on atleast what matters both side could agree to cooperate on and work forward from thereon. Here in a public forum atleast if not in policy circles. Atleast a thought experiment on what could be done now to the benefit of each other.

Blaming each other achieves nothing and nation states do not have the luxury of ignoring their neighbors.

P.S. It is with sad news that i might add, the resolution we undertook on this forum saw either an exodus of its members or more entertainingly an ironic immediate violation by one of its founding members subsequently followed by all if not most who remained.
I agree completely, but with reservations.

First, we did try, if you remember. Now there is nobody left on PDF with whom to interact, although the person calling himself PDF Staff was very reasonable.

Second, as long as the basic thesis of the Pakistani participants remains that Kashmir was theirs, legitimately, and that they are entitled to do anything, anytime, anywhere, there can be no discussion, no hope for even an artificial agreement within the confines of this forum. Rewarding that kind of clandestine goal-seeking will not do anything for even medium term peace.

Third, any agreement that we build here will remain meaningless given the kind of government we have. People might point out that both sides have incompetent, and eminently impeachable, governments. My point is that at least one of the two must change; the Indian government must change, or the Pakistani government must change. With the BJP, we cannot do anything.

You mentioned something in your postscript. Would you mind reminding me?

For once I wish there was a logical discussion on atleast what matters both side could agree to cooperate on and work forward from thereon. Here in a public forum atleast if not in policy circles. Atleast a thought experiment on what could be done now to the benefit of each other.
This is the only part we can work on.
 
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One Mistake! 786 Mistake! Tumse kuch nahi hoga.


Good Morning

You will have a humble pie can't wait until the day comes when we lock horns your dreams will be shattered like a bubble of water..

The day will come and may not be tomorrow but perhaps decades from now but eventually shxt will occur and it is linked to the world economy that will be the final decision maker of the timing..

You will feel same emotions others felt before you when they were badly outwitted
 
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I agree completely, but with reservations.

First, we did try, if you remember. Now there is nobody left on PDF with whom to interact, although the person calling himself PDF Staff was very reasonable.

Second, as long as the basic thesis of the Pakistani participants remains that Kashmir was theirs, legitimately, and that they are entitled to do anything, anytime, anywhere, there can be no discussion, no hope for even an artificial agreement within the confines of this forum. Rewarding that kind of clandestine goal-seeking will not do anything for even medium term peace.

Third, any agreement that we build here will remain meaningless given the kind of government we have. People might point out that both sides have incompetent, and eminently impeachable, governments. My point is that at least one of the two must change; the Indian government must change, or the Pakistani government must change. With the BJP, we cannot do anything.

You mentioned something in your postscript. Would you mind reminding me?
The code of conduct for indians on this forum.

One of the founding members of the code of conduct was shantanu, if im not recalling incorrectly. His code was tested when He went ballistic and threatened violence for some Pakistani posters mocking and insulting Mahatma Ghandi. He stated he could tolerate a lot of things but words against bapu would be met with an unending fury and attack. He subsequently left in a huff.

The irony was lost on him

I can already anticipate what a thread talking about logical and pragmatic ways we can cooperate would turn out to be. As you can attest, not responding to trolls is a temptation hard to master and as such the thread would denigrate into predictable groups arguing against each other. How to work around such a problem?
 
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The day will come and may not be tomorrow but perhaps decades from now but eventually shxt will occur and it is linked to the world economy that will be the final decision maker of the timing..

You will feel same emotions others felt before you when they were badly outwitted
With that logic given enough time even this planet will perish.

Should we start the despair now?
 
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One of the founding members of the code of conduct was shantanu, if im not recalling incorrectly. His code was tested when He went ballistic and threatened violence for some Pakistani posters mocking and insulting Mahatma Ghandi. He stated he could tolerate a lot of things but words against bapu would be met with an unending fury and attack. He subsequently left in a huff.

The irony was lost on him
Yes, I remember. Very sad.

With that logic given enough time even this planet will perish.

Should we start the despair now?
Ignore this troll. He is a particularly rabid specimen.
 
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