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India Begs US Not To Leave Afghanistan

^^^

He is an idiot...it is proved in the famous debate between him and ZH....Infact a discussion between 2 idiots. The thing is, no one in India be it govt, media or masses (they even don't know who the hell he is) takes him seriously. :rofl:
 
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India unprepared and unwilling to defend democracy: Rediff.com India News

India unprepared and unwilling to defend democracy
February 04, 2010 15:40 IST

With the American declaration of an exit from Afghanistan, Beijing [ Images ] and Islamabad [ Images ] are upbeat. This leaves India [ Images ] in the lurch as it is ill prepared to face the threat posed by Islamic fundamentalists and the Chinese Communists argues Bharat Verma.

The creeping invasion by authoritarian regimes will engulf Asia by 2020 as democracies continue to retreat. India is unprepared and unwilling to safeguard the Asian democratic space.

The growing clout of totalitarian regimes coupled with non-State actors is set to shrink the democratic space in Asia. If the onslaught is not reversed by the end of the next decade, Islamic fundamentalist regimes, Communist dictatorships, military juntas and non-State actors will redraw the international boundaries and largely govern Asia.

The squeeze on the democratic space in India will increase once the American forces begin to exit Afghanistan in July 2011. Islamic fundamentalists with the assistance of the sympathetic Pakistan army [ Images ] will take over Afghanistan and Pakistan. This Taliban [ Images ] stronghold will operate on a 'hub and spoke' principle to expand influence and territory. To begin with, India will lose $1.5 billion (about Rs 6,900 crore) worth of investment in Afghanistan, as it is unwilling to defend it.

Islamic fundamentalism will sweep into Central Asia once the American wall holding the spread disappears from Afghanistan. Gradually, the resource rich area will come under the spell of the dark forces. Russia [ Images ] will feel threatened. Americans and the International Security Assistance Force are in many ways fighting Russia's war.

Unlike New Delhi [ Images ], Moscow [ Images ] is always willing to fight its way out!

Islamabad aims to create a caliphate with the help of the Islamic regimes running from Central Asia to West Asia and Southeast Asia. India stands in the way. Beijing desires to unravel India into multiple parts based on the pre-British model as it cannot digest the challenge to its supremacy offered in Asia by a liberal union of multi-religious and multi-ethnic States.

The simple truth is that Indian democratic values contradict and thereby pose a threat to the authoritarian philosophy of both, the Communists in Beijing, and the Islamic fundamentalists in Islamabad. Similarly, many regimes in Islamic West Asia feel uncomfortable with India's ability to generate unprecedented soft power. Regression to medieval times helps keep these autocratic regimes in the saddle.

The all-pervading Indian soft power, therefore, poses a serious challenge. Hence, Pakistan is supported by the petro-dollars dished out on a Wahabbi checkbook to neutralise the threat posed by liberal India.

It is obvious that if the Indian model wins, autocratic regimes like China and Pakistan lose.

Primarily, there have been no terrorist attacks on India after Mumbai [ Images ] 26/11 on two counts. First, the raging civil war within has kept Pakistan preoccupied. Second, the intervention of the American forces has forced diversion of the Pakistan army and its non-State actors's resources away from India. The stated exit of the Western forces beginning July 2010 from the ****** region will render India extremely vulnerable.

The truth is that American forces in many ways are fighting India's war too. However, New Delhi's expectation that they will continue to fight such a war without India chipping is being naive.

While China and Pakistan have joined hands against India and bide their time for the American forces to leave, New Delhi has appealed to Washington not to exit from Afghanistan, but is unprepared and unwilling to assist. The Catch-22 is that neither the West led by America can win without Indian help nor can India prevail without a concrete alliance with the West.

New Delhi's strategic incoherence continues to encourage Beijing and Islamabad's designs of destabilising the Union. Militarily, India remains underprepared due to the huge equipment shortages on land, sea and air, created by the ministry of defence over the last two decades.

Shirking its primary responsibility of equipping the military leaves it ill equipped to cope with the increasing intensity of the threat once the Western forces retreat.

The stalemate in Afghanistan predominantly occurs on two counts. First, superior technology in a guerrilla war where motivational level of the adversary is very high, unless combined with adequate boots on the ground cannot deliver victory.

The West does not have a large reservoir of manpower to mitigate the situation. Thus, the under-manned war for past nine years has produced difficult-to-reverse battle fatigue despite the most modern technology on display.

The result is the resurgent Taliban and Al Qaeda [ Images ] in the region. To win, a fair share of the soldiery needs to be drawn from Asian stock with equally high motivation and equipped with Western technology to surmount the challenge posed by Islamic fundamentalists.

Second, to defend Afghanistan, the war machinery should focus on Pakistan. However, the American strategy in Afghanistan is similar to the Indian fortress mentality.

Despite multiple attacks and infiltrations by the terrorists, New Delhi continues to fortify itself internally in futile attempts to repulse the attacks. Washington's approach is similar in Kabul for the past nine years.

The Americans and the allied forces keep defending against the irregular guerrilla forces launched in to Afghanistan from Pakistan, clandestinely trained by the Pakistan army and its Inter Services Intelligence. The ghost forces from Pakistan, when attacked, disappear almost unscathed. They reappear in Kabul at will.

Washington and New Delhi cannot win since both refuse to face the fact that Pakistan is the problem.

To lend stability to Afghanistan, the threat from Pakistan covertly backed by China must be neutralised. Similarly to secure India, the joint threat from Pakistan and China needs to be resolved. In both, Pakistan is the common factor.

Beijing's Communists back the Islamic fundamentalists in Islamabad to expel the American influence and subdue the Indians, even as Pakistan draws oxygen for sustenance from the economic bailouts from the West.

Logic dictates that to defend Kabul, with the intention of expanding influence of democracies in Asia, the focus must shift to Islamabad. However, an exit by the American forces set for July 2011 from Afghanistan will herald the process of colouring Asia in a dark hue.

With the declaration of the exit time frame, Beijing and Islamabad are once again upbeat.

This leaves India in lurch, as it is ill prepared to face the threat jointly posed by Islamic fundamentalists that includes the Pakistan army and the ISI, and the Chinese Communists. Both support the Maoists in Nepal and the non-State actors including the Maoists in India.

New Delhi therefore faces a simultaneous three-dimensional threat, -- the external war on two fronts, worsening internal front aided by external actors, and lack of governance.

Bharat Verma is editor, Indian Defence Review


can you please change the title or atleast ask some mod to do it........ it offending to Indians:angry:
 
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The issue is, people are interpreting words like asking/appealing/requesting/offering/proposing as "begging"....This gives somewhat a different colour.
Few examples:

(1) UN appealed to all nations to help Haiti quake victims.
(2) India asked Australia to look into the attacks on Indians.
(3) India offered Pakaistan for a talk.
(4) USA asking India to train foreign army.

They are countless more. Now just put word "begging" in place of them and see the difference. The interpretation is altered. :azn:

However it is one of the rarest case where changing title/words/meaning is so blatently supported and defended. :tsk:

Pakistan asking USA for financial assistance in WoT :taz:
 
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^^^

He is an idiot...it is proved in the famous debate between him and ZH....Infact a discussion between 2 idiots. The thing is, no one in India be it govt, media or masses (they even don't know who the hell he is) takes him seriously. :rofl:

I saw that one.. Seemed like 3 idiots and not 2.. The host was no einstien either..
 
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You started well in the first two paragraphs, but what happened in the remaining two?

Well Xeric, thanx for the morale boosting .... especially since been long since I was here. However getting back, its a variation in the POV between us, isnt it?:cheers: The latter two are exclusively Indian POV and especially for us as we prepare to bear the brunt, while you guys will have relative peace ... we expect some surge in violence this side this summer especially since you yourself are facing unrest in your areas on your side ........

Lets agree to disagree on that aspect shall we?;)


Anywaz, here's a question; how many Pathan fighters did india actually kill or catch in Kashmir. Dont confuse it with '47-'48 war.

Quite a few. And those taken prisoners were strung up in the village square and burned ..... actually purely militarily speaking, the afghan origin and veterans are tough nuts to bring down even once we nail them, they operate on a "high" usually serial users of cocaine and heroin or whatever they can find be it even methadone.

If we need to send in people crooks in lame organizations like JuD can do the 'service' very well.

Actually you needed that in 1995-96 and now again when you were facing problems within your own country. It was mighty bold and brave of Prez Musharraf to disarm these elements and attach them under guard with local PA units which saw a drop in levels of violence in J&K. I doubt the present GoP has the necessary guts to continue the same.


We dont require Afg for the purpose. It is just another false claim and an attempt to "Appeal to Fear" by india to hide its nefarious designs inside Afg and malign Pakistan, meanwhile show Pakistan as a state sponsor of terrorism, although india herself have unleashed un-matchable state-terrorism inside Kashmir.

Well you dont need Afghanistan for that certainly. But you have to deal with the very same elements whom you trained ... and they are an uneducated lot who have literally taken it upon themselves that the faith is at danger from all except from them and their kinds. It sinisterly includes the very fabric of Pakistani Society which is seen as a threat to them.

We are not out to malign you. We dont want to. We are happy as long as you fight our war for us which you are doing. And you are doing very well. I have always maintained that you are our last line of defence against these nutters and I still maintain it. All the bogey about terror is raised to ensure enough diplomatic pressure on you o act.

Additionally we could not care less about what you do within your country. As long as the effect is not felt within India.

As for J&K, frankly Guerilla War is not won by sheer force. And we have not adopted it also. We ensure that a level is maintained where enough pressure exists on secessionists to enter into a dialogue while also not enough that the whole population is antagonised.

The moment we go in for a Rambo approach we will be in trouble. We have the patience, the manpower, the monetary-military means and the will to stay in for as long as it takes, and we know that the people of Kashmir will tire of the violence ... and they have begun to. So its a matter of who has patience more. Pakistan can afford all moral and political (it officially only does this) support it can, but till when?
 
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India............BEGS.................!!!

Hmmmmm! Somehow I am reminded of SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE!!

It is really amusing to see the Indians jump up and down on the use of the word 'beg'! Whereas,

1. India 'begged' of the USA to declare Pakistan a terrorist state after 26/11

2. Statistically speaking, India remains the largest country in the world with the number of 'beggars'

So despite the Indian objections, the title suits the thread and conveys the message very well!

TROLL alert :taz::taz::taz: and from a senior member too :undecided:

So did that rant and troll make you feel like a better Pakistani or did you just have to spew out some hate ***** in order to better your day? As for the title of this thread ..call it "beg" or "barter" or "prostitute itself" etc. Who cares. Point is that Pakistan has lost its grip on Afghanistan and whether India remains in Afghanistan or not after the Yankees depart is really of no domestic value to Indians themselves. Never was. Never is. And never will be. :coffee:
 
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are the mods asleep today ?
Please change the name of the thread to Indian commentator or Indian writer thinks that US should not leave Afghanistan.
 
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Well unfortunately, the choice is no more with the US now. It has to go. When, is the only question now. Exodus starts July 2011 (Obama speech). So they are leaving and it is because of this we see the likes of B Verma going gung ho and spilling their guts all over the web.

Like as said in my first post that the fear is evident and so is the hysteria, that has started engulfing you people.

The US would leave and it's just looking for an excuse to do that. All that praise and responsibility that they try to put on our shoulders and with the statements like 'we cant do much without Pakistan's help', 'Our success depends upon Pakistan's cooperation' is just to prepare us as a scapegoat, so that when they leave after failing (read not achieving all the aim with which came inside Afg), they can blame it on Pakistan. 'Hey, see, we told ya, Pakistan was the key, they did respond much and everything is screwed now'

So, those who still think that the US may not be foolish enough to fall for Pakistan's approach should know that the US is tied and f***ed up enough in Afg that they have no other choice other than falling for it. And it is then the indian honeymoon with Karzai ends!
 
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You probably didn't need to flame the topic in order to draw attention but it appears you've done so.

The article's author makes some significant assumptions and leaps of logic that aren't likely sustainable. The notion that Asia will become the refuge of islamist, communist, and rogue criminal governments is somewhat silly since mainland Asia to a great extent is already yet has not represented any overt threat to mankind aside from A.Q.
I am really disappointed by your views. Now you just sounded like an American president. You start with ideals of democracy and go on diluting the standards of normalcy leaving behind Somalias.

You are right. The rogue elements has not yet represented a major threat because they were kept busy and under control all these years. If you are mentioning the days before US's invasions even then it's just that USA was not the target. What do you think all the fighters will do after they consolidate their position in Afghanistan? They will make hell break loose on some neighboring country. How long do you think it will take them to take up a new cause. India would silently hope that this is not Kashmir. When India was *****ing about Afghanistan's Taliban at the time of its airline hijack USA thought it was silly. It took 9/11 to wake you up and Daniel Pearl's execution to feel the pinch.
You quietly retire into your well furnished barracks of yours near the lake. We will brace for what is to come.

The good Taliban myth is soon going to be busted. Obviously these people will refuse to disarm because they face threat from bad Taliban. And they might be allowed to retain their arms or will be allowed to join the army. If they do that with the impression that they were rehabilitated out of the inability of the forces and if they do not do that out of fear or hopelessness, tomorrow they might have the temptation to fight if they get any ideas.

The author was directing a point to the leaders to take note of the circumstances India might face after the withdrawal. If it takes hyperbole and exaggeration, then so be it. And yeah the call for Indian troops in Afghanistan is a bit distasteful for Indians here, but for me it is some thing to be seriously considered over a period. Is it not true about the calm India had from Nov 28 till today? Anyways I truly believe those hapless Indian leaders sitting in the decision making circles should take note of this article, if it is not for landing in AF then at least to be prepared for the consequences of withdrawal.

@xeric: At least he does not call upon people to hate another nation because they hate you. Whatever he says goes into seminars and is addressed to people who knows what they are reading. He is being a bit over cautious, but I won't call him paranoid. May be he is a hawk. India needs a fair share of them to maintain a balance. Whatever he says is a suggestion for policy decisions. They are not addressed at masses.

@ some Indian who compared ZH with Bharat Verma: You do not know what you are talking.


America will begin leaving in mid-2011, make no mistake. Obama has an election the following year and he'll wish to show a withdrawal. By boosting forces now he gains a temporary influx of combat power to help matters now as well as creating an artificial ceiling of troops from which to begin drawing down.

While such a withdrawal shall happen, he can slowly remove many thousands of troops and still not draw down to our PRESENT levels much less dramatically below that. Conditions on the ground, government officials hastened to state in the aftermath of Obama's speech, will drive that drawdown.

Well, any fool can see that even without an insurgency Afghanistan's conditions were and still are abysmal.
So too they shall likely be in mid-2011 so nobody is taking that especially seriously except those eager to resume a full-fledged assault on the GoA from within Pakistan.
Hope you are correct about the withdrawal.

about AF c'mon mann you can't say that. When did we see a peaceful Afghanistan for the last time? I never did.:hitwall:
 
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Afghanistan-2010..a musical.

America:
Aik Mullah zaat bara hoshiyar, Meray ghar mein mar kar bhagat jaag, ham pakar chahat
arraay duzz duzz duzz duzz
Aik Mullah zaar bara hoshiyar..

NATO:
Hadd se barhne laga..Bum ka silsila..
dil nahin lag raha.. dil nahin lag raha.

Uss ne Ehwal poocha.. tu mein ne kaha.
dil nahin lag raha.. dil nahin lag raha..

Kabul mein jo bhi meray yar hain..
sab barey khwar hain.. sab barey khwar hain..

Kiss ko maalom hai .. kaun ho kab faraar
dil nahin lag raha.. dil nahin lag raha

Karzai: Ham teray pyar mein saari izzat, kho baithay.. kho baithay..
tum kehte ho ke aise pyar ko bhool jao..bhool jao..

India:
Na jao saiyan..churah ke baiyan..
Qasam tumhari mein protest karoon gi..
protest karoon gi..

:D

nicely worded ... your own compilation?:cheers:

But unfortunately all this poetry et all will go if there is a vaccuum created with US-ISAF withdrawl without ANA being strong enough to share the burden.

What is worrisome is that while majority of our fellow posters from Pakistan have advocated the reintegration of Taliban and US finds it a convenient way to withdraw with some face, the long term ramifications of any such move have not been realised with respect to Pakistani security in the short term/or have been swept under the carpet with only the intention of seeing an end to Indian influence in Afghanistan and re-establishment of (perceived) pro-Pakistan government in Afghanistan.

The mere fact that US withdrawl will mark acceptance of US defeat in Afghanistan is sufficient enough to drive in the point of future events that shall unfold thereafter.

It may very well result in a resurgent and more confident Taliban which will be deeply embedded with AQ like organisations and taliban may just turn to be a major umbrella organisation soon. With the recent PA offensive operations against entrenched Talibs in NWFP and FATA, the Afghan Talib may just wish to help their brethren establish a true Islamic state (their version of it anyways where women are persecuted if they seek education etc etc) in Pakistan (Pakistani Society is anyways threat for them as its a free and modern one) ..... and while majority of my fellow posters from pakistan may for now laugh at this suggestion of mine, I do foresee escalation of trouble within Pakistan in the near future which shall be compounded by any US-ISAF withdrawl. The initial pressure albeit isolated is being felt in Pakistani Kashmir already.
 
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India should just make it clear if they do not want to hold any sort of negotiations, but I think that is not going to be the case, why, becuase Pakistan is suceeding in fighting the militants and TTP, who we believe are sponsored terrorist with RAW and Indian backing (and you cannot say Pakistan is speculating when a serving officer, SERVING officer Col Prohit is maligned or his involvement in terrorist attacks in India where they wanted to shift the blame on Muslims) which goes to show the Indian treachery of India's military and suspicion of Pakistan also. However this Operation is gathering pace and Pakistan has successfully managed to isolate the TTP whilst keeping the Afghan Taliban out of the scope and only targetting those who wish to harm us.

The US is going full speed ahead with a withdrawal plan in 2011 in which India knows all too well, Pakistan will shift its focus back on Kashmir and the temporary setback suffered by freedom dighters may once again go ahead with full steam. India is all too aware of the last uprising and how close it came then with 700,000 troops and just cannot afford another scenario like this from developing and does not wish to have further anarchy in other parts of India i.e. Naxals, where recently Indian troops have launched operation in 5 separate States.

India knows all too well that whether is admits or not, Pakistan believes it to be behind terrorists in attacks on its soil and the ISI will this time around do what it can in causing as much chaos in other States in India hand in hand with China this time around. Most likely a no holes barred secenario where India bears the brint like Pakistan has done with India's hand, only India gets effected badly with its economy, hence running for talks and agreement, as you pointed out,what has Pakistan done since 26/11, F all, and that will stay as such. It is India which will be needing and wanting talks soon enough, looking at realities on the ground.

The US will only have a small presence in Afghanistan if the Taliban allow which I doubt as they will continue relentlessly until all foreigners are out.

It may well be in India's best interest to hold talks as Pakistan will not just sit and watch as India has shown its colours as far as Pakistan is concerned.

Lets wait and see
 
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The article's author makes some significant assumptions and leaps of logic that aren't likely sustainable. The notion that Asia will become the refuge of islamist, communist, and rogue criminal governments is somewhat silly since mainland Asia to a great extent is already yet has not represented any overt threat to mankind aside from A.Q.

Strangely only AQ seems to be a dreaded organisation! Is it because US was hit? How about a whole bunch of organisations with similar ideology?

The author may seem far fetched in his POVs, but he has certain basis for the same. Throughout history, if Central Asian-Middle East region became strong, it always set about on conquest - be it wars in China, India or even attacks on Europe. Its a historical fact.

The orientation of any such "expedition" this time round will not be in terms of a regular disciplined force (historically too, there was never a single attacking force originating here). The issue gets compounded all the more by a widening gap between the haves and have nots. Poverty has always been a breeding ground for disillusionment and violence which becomes all the more worse based on religious sentiments.

It is here that these organisations find their recruits.

Withdrawl of US from Afghanistan is not possible - and if they do, they shall leave the country in greater chaos than that it was in when they came in. It shall be another typical example where US didnt have the courage to stand up for what it claimed it was intending to do in the first place.

Withdrawl of US will be hailed as victory of the Talibs and AQ over the "infidels" and further bolster their numbers and sympathisers.

What Pakistani autorities fail to appreciate in their obsession with India is that these elements in a backdrop of US withdrawl will turn towards Pakistan and on towards India and China (Xinjiang) ..... their intention is not country specific, but region specific. The long term implications are very serious indeed.

Is it that the US found that it can not go all the way as it involves entering Pakistani territory with or without their permission?
 
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The title and the post title are different and reasons given for them are :

Its the poster who decides the title and the crux of the post which is again at the poster discretion can be used as a sufficient reason to change the post.

MODS:
So let me get this straight will you let other members do the same. I came to this forum because it was known for its fairness else I would have gone to one of the dime a dozens military forums who are biased to one country or the other.

Please I request you to either let all members do this or get the title changed. The thing is if we leave posting defamatory titles to user discretion however senior he may be, it might become a very big issue.

OP:
Sir, I would request you to please maintain the sanctity of your post and be an example to the rest of us mere low-posters irrespective of nationality.

Regards
 
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Afghanistan-2010..a musical.

America:
Aik Mullah zaat bara hoshiyar, Meray ghar mein mar kar bhagat jaag, ham pakar chahat
arraay duzz duzz duzz duzz
Aik Mullah zaar bara hoshiyar..

NATO:
Hadd se barhne laga..Bum ka silsila..
dil nahin lag raha.. dil nahin lag raha.

Uss ne Ehwal poocha.. tu mein ne kaha.
dil nahin lag raha.. dil nahin lag raha..

Kabul mein jo bhi meray yar hain..
sab barey khwar hain.. sab barey khwar hain..

Kiss ko maalom hai .. kaun ho kab faraar
dil nahin lag raha.. dil nahin lag raha

Karzai: Ham teray pyar mein saari izzat, kho baithay.. kho baithay..
tum kehte ho ke aise pyar ko bhool jao..bhool jao..

India:
Na jao saiyan..churah ke baiyan..
Qasam tumhari mein protest karoon gi..
protest karoon gi..

:D

America to Pakistan

kyon paisa paisa karti hai
kyon paise pe tu marti hai

kya hota hai paisa ka
paise ki laga doon dheri…..

main baarish kardu paise ki
jo tu ho jaaye meri
main baarish kardu paise ki
jo tu ho jaaye meri


Pakistan to America


thoda hai thode ki zaroorat hai
zindagi phir bhi [Boom,Boom,Boom] aa ha khoobsoorat hai
thoda hai thode ki zaroorat hai
zaroorat hai

jis din paisa hoga
wo din kaisa hoga
us din pahiye ghoomenge
aur kismat ke lab choomenge
bolo aisa hoga
thoda hai thode ki zaroorat hai



Pakistani ppl


Dushman na kare dost ne woh kaam kiya hai
Umar bhar ka gam humen inaam diya hai
Dushman na kare dost ne woh kaam kiya hai
Umar bhar ka gam humen inaam diya hai





:bunny::bunny::bunny: :pakistan:
 
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