India and Iran: Challenges and Opportunity

[Indus Pakistan]

Generally agreed! let's call it tactical and strategic. In my view tactical alliances may result from immediate exigencies of one's national interests. But Strategic alliances are often formed with countries that share similar set of values and world views.

Yes I suppose we used differant terms but we are trying to express the same thing. What you call tactical was my narrow spectrum. hat you called strategic I called full spectrum. It is not that simple walking away from a proper strategic relationship. If you can it would mean it was never strategic in the first place.

For example what is possiblity of Ireland and UK turning against each other? What is the possibility of France and Germany turning on each other? Zero. Yes, they will have diferance but what binds them ( geography, history, civilization, culture, religion, European identity ) is too much and will force them to resolve their differances.

I have been on other forums I cannot believe that people in Texas, USA, in Canada, in Australia, in Sweden are all having sleepless nights about the "Muslim" migrants heading to Hungary and Germany. That is when I realized that there is a fundamental connect betwen all these people. They all share a common civilization and are all united under the "Western" label. The have common military, economic and political platforms. These are examples of full spectrum alliances.

Iran and Pakistan can be like France and UK when Iran and Arabs sit and talk, resolving all their problems, or Pakistan neglecting many of its relations with GCC Arabs. That's what I love to see happen in future in Pak-Iran relations, but there are many obstacles. Unlike India, Iran and Pakistan can be 'strategic partners', meaning their relations can involve much more than business and economy, but it depends on many factors.

It will happen. Many things will change but even in hundred years when Pakistani's wake up in the morning Iran will be next door. As Iran's economy grows as it will and China's shadow on Pakistan increases watch how things change.

If you know European history just think what struggles both countries went through until both realized that alliance was the way forward. Today I can drive across to France and be back by evening no problem.

 

[bozorgmehr]

Iran and Isreali relationship before 1979 was by product of Iran and US relationship which itself was based around oil and regional hegemony by USA. As soon as Iran's relationship with USA was severed it rebounded on the Iran/Isreal relationship. It went from hero to zero overnight. In other words those relationships that are narrow spectrum can turn upside overnight. However those relationships that are full spectrum which are grounded on many ground realties and have been nurtured very over time WILL not flip upside in one day. Examples I can give is USA and UK. France and UK. These relationships are multiplex across the entire spectrum and will not tear apart so easy.

America and Pakistan have just had convergence of interest along very narrow lines. That is why it was always a transactional relationship. However USA and UK have far deeper alliance. I know in the long term Pakistan and Iran will emerge like France and Germany with full spectrum relationship based on solid realities that can't evaporate in day. The challange is this will take time and maturity. I certainly believe we are at the begining of change.

Well said! I agree. Iran and Israel's relationship wasn't grounded on Iran's inherent national interests. It was an imposition from above as a condition of club membership. In reality, Iran and Israel will butt heads in the region, because Israel's survival is predicated on dominating their immediate and proportionally more distant regional countries. And this will always bump up against Iran's inherent national interests.

In my view, strategic alliances require the convergence of national interests and more intangible cultural traits of countries. So while there's definitely there's a lot of potential for that type of relationship to emerge between Iran and Pakistan, it's still not in sight.

In general, 3rd world countries don't have the luxury of strategic alliances. Often times, it's nothing more that being a client state of a more powerful country. The closest thing Iran has to a strategic ally is its relationship with Hezbollah and Iraq.

Yes I suppose we used differant terms but we are trying to express the same thing. What you call tactical was my narrow spectrum. hat you called strategic I called full spectrum. It is not that simple walking away from a proper strategic relationship. If you can it would mean it was never strategic in the first place.

For example what is possiblity of Ireland and UK turning against each other? What is the possibility of France and Germany turning on each other? Zero. Yes, they will have diferance but what binds them ( geography, history, civilization, culture, religion, European identity ) is too much and will force them to resolve their differances.

I have been on other forums I cannot believe that people in Texas, USA, in Canada, in Australia, in Sweden are all having sleepless nights about the "Muslim" migrants heading to Hungary and Germany. That is when I realized that there is a fundamental connect betwen all these people. They all share a common civilization and are all united under the "Western" label. The have common military, economic and political platforms. These are examples of full spectrum alliances.

I like your analogies. It's good to see somebody finally understands what I'm talking about.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Well said! I agree. Iran and Israel's relationship wasn't grounded on Iran's inherent national interests. It was an imposition from above as a condition of club membership. In reality, Iran and Israel will butt heads in the region, because Israel's survival is predicated on dominating their immediate and proportionally more distant regional countries. And this will always bump up against Iran's inherent national interests.

In my view, strategic alliances require the convergence of national interests and more intangible cultural traits of countries. So while there's definitely there's a lot of potential for that type of relationship to emerge between Iran and Pakistan, it's still not in sight.

In general, 3rd world countries don't have the luxury of strategic alliances. Often times, it's nothing more that being a client state of a more powerful country. The closest thing Iran has to a strategic ally is its relationship with Hezbollah and Iraq.



I like your analogies. It's good to see somebody finally understands what I'm talking about.

There will come a day when this Shia/Sunni thing will be like the Catholic and Protestant rivalry. Where it belongs. Dead and buried. For gawds sakes look at Iraq. Brother is killing brother. It's just madness.

 

[bozorgmehr]

There will come a day when this Shia/Sunni thing will be like the Catholic and Protestant rivalry. Where it belongs. Dead and buried. For gawds sakes look at Iraq. Brother is killing brother. It's just madness.

I have no doubt about it. European countries used to kill each other worse than Shia/Sunnis. And out of that came the realization that that was madness, as you said. So they started talking and they started respecting each other and coexisting with one another. So we have a long and painful road ahead, and we will one day get there, if we don't totally wipe each other off first.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I have no doubt about it. European countries used to kill each other worse than Shia/Sunnis. And out of that came the realization that that was madness, as you said. So they started talking and they started respecting each other and coexisting with one another. So we have a long and painful road ahead, and we will one day get there, if we don't totally wipe each other off first.

The trick is too move away from dogmatic religion. I am not saying go irreligious but relax and let live. When that happens everything will start to resolve itself. This is matter of education and time. We got to learn to live by "to you yours and unto me mine".

 

[Kaniska]

Let's stick to doing business, shall we? Where we can both see value?




"Trustworthy" etc are meaningless words. What exactly has Iran done for India that you expect India to reciprocate? Even if there are strategic alliances, they happen only because the parties concerned see benefits. Let's dispense with the name calling & see if we can do business.

Be careful in responding to this poster...We have to be careful in responding posters from Iran as usually they are positive except a few..I hope you got my point..

 

[bozorgmehr]

The trick is too move away from dogmatic religion. I am not saying go irreligious but relax and let live. When that happens everything will start to resolve itself. This is matter of education and time. We got to learn to live by "to you yours and unto me mine".

Well too late! I've already gone irreligious and there's no going back..... You don't need religion to know god. In fact, if anything, religion pushes you away from the essence of god. It's like staring at a dot on a large painting, and claiming that it will teach you anything and everything you need to know about the painting. Ultimately, it will lead to ignorance and backwardness.... but that's another song.

Be careful in responding to this poster...We have to be careful in responding posters from Iran as usually they are positive except a few..I hope you got my point..

Lol... yes, be careful not to veer off the script...

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Well too late! I've already gone irreligious and there's no going back..... You don't need religion to know god. In fact, if anything, religion pushes you away from the essence of god. It's like staring at a dot on a large painting, and claiming that it will teach you anything and everything you need to know about the painting. Ultimately, it will lead to ignorance and backwardness.... but that's another song.

Count me in as well. I was being diplomatic. You know how some people can get all fired up about religion.

Edit: "Bozorgh" means elderly gent? Or is it differant in Persian?

 

[bozorgmehr]

Count me in as well. I was being diplomatic. You know how some people can get all fired up about religion.

Edit: "Bozorgh" means elderly gent? Or is it differant in Persian?

Amen to that brother. There is hope for us yet! One of the reasons why I support the Islamic government is that by dint of demonstrating the true nature of religion day in and day out and brutally rubbing the face of Iranians in it, it is secularizing the Iranian population at a speed that no other force could. Iranian intelligentsia had been trying to do that since the tobacco movement, in the late 19th century. But it really had to go back to basics and have the most deprived and culturally conservative strata of our society confront this issue, for it to have an effect. Today the sons of daughters of some of the most retrograde and reactionary members of the clerical establishments have spoken out against it and expressed the need for change. So change is gonna come...

As for my name, it's a proper Iranian name. Bozorg from Middle Persian Vuzurg means great. It does imply elder in some instances. e.g. Pedar Bozorg means grand father.

Mehr from Middle Persian Mihr originally means Mithra. One of the Iranian Gods who was later demoted to being a Yazata or ach-angel type creature.

Bozorgmehr was also the name of a famous Sassanian prime minister, in the pre-islamic period. You can read more about it here: Bozorgmehr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Aepsilons]

This number from Japan will only increase. Believe me.

 

[ito]

Iran and Pakistan can be like France and UK when Iran and Arabs sit and talk, resolving all their problems, or Pakistan neglecting many of its relations with GCC Arabs. That's what I love to see happen in future in Pak-Iran relations, but there are many obstacles. Unlike India, Iran and Pakistan can be 'strategic partners', meaning their relations can involve much more than business and economy, but it depends on many factors.

I doubt whether Iran and Pakistan can be 'strategic partners'. There are quite some strong reasons for that. First, in no case Pakistan is going to dump Saudi and GCC for Iran. Second, there are strong political undercurrents with regard to Shia vs Sunni sects in Pakistan which no government in Pakistan can ignore. Third, despite being neighbors for last 70 years, the relations between Iran and Pakistan is next to zero, show how little common you have between yourself.

And then you people are underestimating economic ties. Economics dictate geopolitics. The larger the trade that happens between Iran and India, the lesser is the probability that strategic relations between Iran and Pakistan will develop.

 

[SOHEIL]

 

[haviZsultan]

Iran has always stood for muslim interests. Iran should link an improvement of relations with India and access to their ports with the Kashmir dispute. It should demand that Kashmir be either freed or a free and fair election be held. That will improve Iran's image as an Islamic power.

I doubt whether Iran and Pakistan can be 'strategic partners'. There are quite some strong reasons for that. First, in no case Pakistan is going to dump Saudi and GCC for Iran. Second, there are strong political undercurrents with regard to Shia vs Sunni sects in Pakistan which no government in Pakistan can ignore. Third, despite being neighbors for last 70 years, the relations between Iran and Pakistan is next to zero, show how little common you have between yourself.

And then you people are underestimating economic ties. Economics dictate geopolitics. The larger the trade that happens between Iran and India, the lesser is the probability that strategic relations between Iran and Pakistan will develop.

That is incorrect. Historically Pakistan and Iran launched an operation in Balochistan together under the shah. Iran was the first country to recognize Pakistan's independence. There is an active trade partnership even now set to double in coming years. Wheat and Rice make up 60%+ of Pakistans exports to Iran. Similarly there are exports to Pakistan from Iran.

You seem to be a typical Indian burning at improving relations of Pakistan with another country. First free our Lucknow then talk. Iran's ideology is based on Islamic unity. You will have to solve kashmir and answer for gujarat and other riots before they enter relations with you.

 

[Bang Galore]

Iran has always stood for muslim interests. Iran should link an improvement of relations with India and access to their ports with the Kashmir dispute. It should demand that Kashmir be either freed or a free and fair election be held. That will improve Iran's image as an Islamic power.

Do you realise how pathetic that makes you sound? Especially when your cricket board is begging India to play because that will fill its coffers with millions of dollars......? It's bad enough that you will fight India to the last Kashmiri, you now want to fight to the last Iranian...? Good luck convincing them.

 

[ito]

Iran has always stood for muslim interests. Iran should link an improvement of relations with India and access to their ports with the Kashmir dispute. It should demand that Kashmir be either freed or a free and fair election be held. That will improve Iran's image as an Islamic power.


That is incorrect. Historically Pakistan and Iran launched an operation in Balochistan together under the shah. Iran was the first country to recognize Pakistan's independence. There is an active trade partnership even now set to double in coming years. Wheat and Rice make up 60%+ of Pakistans exports to Iran. Similarly there are exports to Pakistan from Iran.

You seem to be a typical Indian burning at improving relations of Pakistan with another country. First free our Lucknow then talk. Iran's ideology is based on Islamic unity. You will have to solve kashmir and answer for gujarat and other riots before they enter relations with you.

Sir, all countries will have relationships, that doesn't mean anything. Just look at your political media and count how much is covered on Iran in last one year, you had know how much importance Pakistan attaches to its relationship with Iran.

As on Lucknow it is yours. You haven't came to claim it. On Kashmir and Gujarat, they too are yours. You just have to come and they are yours.