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In The Afghan War Aim For The Middle Ground

S-2

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From Sunday's WAPO editorial, S-2 finds a kindred soul in the president of the Council On Foreign Relations Richard N. Haass-

In The Afghan War Aim For The Middle Ground- Richard Haass WAPO Editorial

"The United States is doing a great deal in Afghanistan -- and is considering doing more -- because it sees the effort as essential to protecting Pakistan. But this logic is somewhat bizarre. Certainly, allowing the Taliban and al-Qaeda to reestablish a sanctuary in Afghanistan would make it harder to defeat them in Pakistan. But the Taliban and al-Qaeda already have a sanctuary -- in Pakistan itself.

It is the government of Pakistan that is tolerating the very groups that the United States is fighting in Afghanistan in the name of Pakistan's stability.
It is worth noting, too, that Pakistani officials are not asking the United States to commit additional troops to Afghanistan, in large part because many Pakistanis view Afghanistan as one of several fronts in their struggle against India and see the Taliban as foot soldiers in that contest. Pakistan's future will be determined far more by its willingness and ability to meet internal challenges than by anything that emanates from across its border."


The man should send me his paycheck for plagarizing my work...

...or offer me a job at CFR. I've been WAY out in front of this commentary:lol:

Thanks.:usflag:
 
"If Taliban have permamanet presence in 3/4 of Afghanistan [1] they dont need no 'sanctuary' in Pakistan , they already have one on their home turf. On top of this the Americans are ceeding them more terriroty everday."

Sir,

I don't think it's Afghanistan that's foremost on Mr. Haass' mind in his comments but your point is well-taken, if incomplete. Command and control along with logistics are still in Pakistan by American assessment.

However, I concur with your thoughts about ceding land in Afghanistan as I'm unconvinced that a population strategy that's focused on urban centers in Afghanistan really protects anybody but a relatively small pct. of the population.

It cedes the infiltration routes while ignoring, unless somebody indicates otherwise, the scattered demographics that really define the afghan populace.

The C.I.A. has recently downgraded its estimates of the afghan population to about 28m and the country is slated for its first serious census since 1978 next year. I can spell it out though fairly easily.

Kabul has about 2.6m as of 2006. Certainly larger now but probably not much so unless THAT estimate is well off. The next three (Kandahar, Herat, and Mazur-I-Sharif) had a combined total of just over 1m at the time. Again, larger now, but the numbers fall off dramatically from there for the top fifty cities in Afghanistan.

Point being, most of the country is living in scattered villages that probably don't exceed 1,000 and likely far, far less.

All we'd end up doing, if my assessment is correct, is securing nodes of significance while rendering the inter-connecting LOCs vulnerable and surrendering vast tracts as in-country sanctuary.

The reason, though, that I've placed this op-ed on PAKISTAN'S WAR is because Haass' emphasis (despite the title) really seems to be Pakistan-not Afghanistan.
 
It is the government of Pakistan that is tolerating the very groups that the United States is fighting in Afghanistan in the name of Pakistan's stability.
McChrystal has acknowledged that the insurgency in Afghanistan is primarily Afghan based.

This analysis draws the same conclusions, which largely validate the point many Pakistanis have been making for a long, that the safe havens in Pakistan do not drive the Afghan insurgency:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...207-afghan-taliban-less-reliant-pakistan.html
[/I][/COLOR] It is worth noting, too, that Pakistani officials are not asking the United States to commit additional troops to Afghanistan, in large part because many Pakistanis view Afghanistan as one of several fronts in their struggle against India and see the Taliban as foot soldiers in that contest. Pakistan's future will be determined far more by its willingness and ability to meet internal challenges than by anything that emanates from across its border."[/B]
Utter bullocks - it is a regurgitation of opinions by arm-chair warriors seeking to find some sort of evil and ulterior motive in every policy Pakistan proposes or implements, and somehow link it to 'strategic depth'.

Its a laughably obsolete canard, but one that continue to find traction amongst some for obvious reasons.

Pakistan's reasons for objecting to troop increases are public - Haas would do well to first analyze the PA's publicly voiced rationale behind opposing troop increases instead of clutching at conspiracy theories and regurgitating the old 'strategic depth' bogeyman.
 
Some questions to S-2

1)- After US left Paksitan and Afghanistan in mess created in 1980s.. there was no insurgency till time Pakistan choose to fight US war of terror in region. Why on earth these terrorists Taliban were sitting so calm till 2001? Were they waiting for 9/11?

2)- If US FCR is so cure about their assessment (Iraq is one place to check how good US assessments are usually) then why they are not asking president Karzai to allow Pakistan fence and mine Border between Pakistan and Afghanistan? Why Mr. Karzai is resisting? Why US is not pressing Pakistan to seal its Western border like it has done on Eastern side with India??

3)- After inept failure in Iraq to bring any peace and stability, why US thinker think that Pakistani must trust them? I think reaction on KL bill must be enough gauge what US policies has done to public perception of Pak-US relations.

4)-Do you agree that it is a failure of US and NATO that they can't stop people attacking US/NATO in Afghanistan and come back to their hideouts in Pakistan every time?

5)- How many check posts US/NATO/Afghan National army has set on Afghan side of border?

----------

Thanks in advance.
 
"McChrystal has acknowledged that the insurgency in Afghanistan is primarily Afghan based."

Pg. 2-5 of McChrystal's assessment says the following-

"Most insurgent fighters are Afghan. They are directed by a small number of Afghan senior leaders based in Pakistan that work through an alternative political infrastructure in Afghanistan. They are aided by foreign fighters, elements of some intelligence agencies, and international funding, resources, and training..."

I see a need to more clearly define motivations among fighters. There is more involved to this insurgency than simply "taliban". Internat'l irhabists, both the Haqqani and Hekmatyar networks, afghan-based pashtu nationalists who may or may not subscribe to broader theological/philosophical motivations, true Kandahar-inspired taliban, and sympathetic Pakistani tribal elements whom are led, as example, by men like Maulvi Nazir and Bahadur all contribute to Afghanistan's insurgency.

We only need to look at the shura to reconcile Baitullah Mehsud with Bahadur and Nazir called by Omar last spring to more properly re-orient their strategic focus back upon Afghanistan to understand such.

Your Reuters-based article is not an "analysis" though it points to the evolving nature of the afghan insurgency when suggesting the growth at the "pointy end" from 6,000 to approx 27,000 fighters. As the insurgency is, in the end, AFGHAN, it wouldn't be surprising that these leaders finds traction in the way of human resources within Afghanistan.

Whether their financial, medical, command & control, and weaponry are exclusively such is not questioned. It simply isn't at this point and likely will never be.

McChrystal's assessment, of course, goes much further and in far greater detail but here, on pg. 2-10 under the section on EXTERNAL INFLUENCES, he states-

"Afghanistan's insurgency is clearly supported from Pakistan. Senior leaders of the major Afghan insurgent groups are based in Pakistan, are linked with al Qaeda and other violent extremist groups, and are reportedly aided by some elements of Pakistan's ISI"

He goes on, further stating on pg. 2-10-

"...While the existance of safe havens in Pakistan does not guarantee ISAF failure, Afghanistan does require Pakistani cooperation and action against violent militancy, particularly against those groups active in Afghanistan..."

"Utter bullocks - it is a regurgitation of opinions by arm-chair warriors seeking to find some sort of evil and ulterior motive in every policy Pakistan proposes or implements, and somehow link it to 'strategic depth'."

Good. Then you've little fear of a growing Indian presence inside Afghanistan. I'm glad to read such confidence.

"Haas would do well to first analyze the PA's publicly voiced rationale behind opposing troop increases instead of clutching at conspiracy theories and regurgitating the old 'strategic depth' bogeyman"

Having noted the myriad minor but salient details your own analysis has conveniently overlooked, I doubt the president of CFR will be looking to you for enlightenment, sir.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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As the insurgency is, in the end, AFGHAN, it wouldn't be surprising that these leaders finds traction in the way of human resources within Afghanistan.
It isn't surprsing, that is what is happening, as the Reuters 'analysis' points out.

Whether their financial, medical, command & control, and weaponry are exclusively such is not questioned. It simply isn't at this point and likely will never be.
This point is not questioned, and the principle is equally applicable in case of the Baluch insurgency.

" and are reportedly aided by some elements of Pakistan's ISI"
'Reportedly' says it all. No evidence to validate that 'reported' assertion.
"Afghanistan's insurgency is clearly supported from Pakistan."

Can also be re-written as, "Pakistan's insurgency is cleary supported from Afghanistan" - per the analysis from Pakistan. The incidents in Bajaur and elsewhere where hundreds of Afghan based Taliban crossed the border to assault Pakistani positions and join the Pakistani Taliban in resisting GoP operations testify to that. Add in the drug and weapons channels from Afghanistan to Pakistan and the destabilzing impact of Afghanistan on Pakistan is clear.

Good. Then you've little fear of a growing Indian presence inside Afghanistan. I'm glad to read such confidence.
That depends upon the kind of presence - an Indian presence that supports terrorism and insurgents in Pakistan in cahoots with the GoA would be a cause for legitemate concern - an Indian presence that is soley focussed on reconstruction would not be a cause for concern.

If your and Haas's conclusion is that Pakistan is 'concerned' about the Indian presence enough to recreate 'strategic depth', then I assum both are agreed that the Indian presence in Afghanistan is being used to destabilize Pakistan.

If it is not a destabilizing presence, then the need for 'strategic depth' does not arise.
Having noted the myriad minor but salient details your own analysis has conveniently overlooked, I doubt the president of CFR will be looking to you for enlightenment, sir.

Given that Haas chose not to even attempt to analyze the public rationale of the PA on troop increases in Afghanistan, and instead dive head first into an obsolete canard of 'strategic depth', it would be a bit too much to ask for him to follow my advice.

Cheers!

:pakistan:
 
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"...the principle is equally applicable in case of the Baluch insurgency."

Not with an open coastline of hundreds of miles it isn't. Further, there's more than principle at play when tribal forces like Bahadur and Nazir contribute their weight to the insurgency. Nevermind Haqqani and Hekmatyar's networks.

Baluch tribes in Afghanistan, however, remain unsuggested as sources of such support in any amounts whatsoever, much less to the degree we see routinely otherwise coming into Afghanistan from Pakistan.

Your thoughts constitute speculation for a domestic audience in hopes of dissemblance. Were your case so compelling you'd have your answer in the court of global opinion if satisfaction couldn't be derived from America.

"'Reportedly' says it all. No evidence to validate that 'reported' assertion."

Actually it doesn't. "UNCLASSIFIED" says it all. Much is left unsaid in open sources.

"Can also be re-written as, 'Pakistan's insurgency is cleary supported from Afghanistan' - per the analysis from Pakistan."

It COULD but that's not how McChrystal's assessment is written. That, however, is EXACTLY what shall transpire once Pakistan has seen the taliban back into power in Afghanistan.

You're next sure as the sun rises in the east.

I forelornly await reading this mythical "analysis" from your army.

"The incidents in Bajaur and elsewhere where hundreds of Afghan based Taliban crossed the border to assault Pakistani positions and join the Pakistani Taliban in resisting GoP operations testify to that."

Any insurgent army would do so if its sources of sustenence and sanctuary were endangered. For once, that was the case. You'll see FAAAR more of the same when/if you finally enter the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan.

Fortuately, it wasn't sustainable. That will change though if we leave.

"If it is not a destabilizing presence, then the need for 'strategic depth' does not arise."

I don't find McChrystal's assessment to be the bollocked product of an "armchair" warrior but your attempt to dissemble misses fully half of the equation that governs "strategic depth". Somehow lost in your critique is the GoP's clear ambition to project pashtu nationalist ambitions away from the Punjab and onto Afghanistan.

That remains an overarching objective of your army's national security strategy.

Oh! BTW, the editorial is written by Richard N. HAASS.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
From Sunday's WAPO editorial, S-2 finds a kindred soul in the president of the Council On Foreign Relations Richard N. Haass-

In The Afghan War Aim For The Middle Ground- Richard Haass WAPO Editorial

"The United States is doing a great deal in Afghanistan -- and is considering doing more -- because it sees the effort as essential to protecting Pakistan. But this logic is somewhat bizarre. Certainly, allowing the Taliban and al-Qaeda to reestablish a sanctuary in Afghanistan would make it harder to defeat them in Pakistan. But the Taliban and al-Qaeda already have a sanctuary -- in Pakistan itself.

It is the government of Pakistan that is tolerating the very groups that the United States is fighting in Afghanistan in the name of Pakistan's stability.
It is worth noting, too, that Pakistani officials are not asking the United States to commit additional troops to Afghanistan, in large part because many Pakistanis view Afghanistan as one of several fronts in their struggle against India and see the Taliban as foot soldiers in that contest. Pakistan's future will be determined far more by its willingness and ability to meet internal challenges than by anything that emanates from across its border."


The man should send me his paycheck for plagarizing my work...

...or offer me a job at CFR. I've been WAY out in front of this commentary:lol:

Thanks.:usflag:

hass is stuck in a time-warp!

read david ignatiaus (spell-check) commentry in the WP - its more current and the conclusion is "if the US wants success in afghanistan - replicate the pak army efforts in swat" - further see the charlie rose interview of the same DI for further elaboration.

i know its difficult for the US to accept a different POV (which is giving results however slowly), after all the US spending in afghanistan has touched $300 bill (without much success) and the investment in pakistan has been ~$10-12 bill (with much more success) - do the sums!!!

why dosnt anybody ask where has this $300 bill gone!!!

everyone is quick to ask where has the $10 bill gone!!!

obama's is feverishly reading good ol McGeorge Bundy's book on vietnam to get a better understanding before deciding to committ up to 80,000 more troops (as recently revealed) to afghanistan - its a quagmire folks!

in the end - peace in afghanistan goes thru pakistan - whether the US (or india) likes it or not.

better to rig your cart behind the right horse matey!!!

ps: welcome back the football w/end was a disaster
 
"...the principle is equally applicable in case of the Baluch insurgency."

Not with an open coastline of hundreds of miles it isn't. Further, there's more than principle at play when tribal forces like Bahadur and Nazir contribute their weight to the insurgency. Nevermind Haqqani and Hekmatyar's networks.

Baluch tribes in Afghanistan, however, remain unsuggested as sources of such support in any amounts whatsoever, much less to the degree we see routinely otherwise coming into Afghanistan from Pakistan.

Your thoughts constitute speculation for a domestic audience in hopes of dissemblance. Were your case so compelling you'd have your answer in the court of global opinion if satisfaction couldn't be derived from America.
The coastline would only have an impact in terms of hostile entities or other Baluch population centers supporting the insurgency, and barring India there is no other with the capability or motive to utilize the coastline for those purposes. That section of the Arabian Sea is also amongst the most heavily patrolled regions in the world, which makes sea based support for the insurgency unlikely.

Afghanistan shares a border and possesses the motive and the resources, has provided sanctuary and support in the past to Baluch insurgencies. The involvement of the Indians significantly increases the impact on the insurgency than Afghanistan alone.

And back to Afghanistan, the reports indicating large flows of drugs and weapons across the Iranian and Central Asian States represent the same argument that your 'coastline in Balcuhistan' does - namely that material support for the Afghan Taliban, and subsequently the Pakistani Taliban, flows across quite a few borders, not just the Pakistani one.

"'Reportedly' says it all. No evidence to validate that 'reported' assertion."

Actually it doesn't. "UNCLASSIFIED" says it all. Much is left unsaid in open sources.
In other words, since 'Much is left unsaid', perhaps he'll blame invaders from the Planet X!

Speculative tripe, and you know it. There is no evidence, classified or otherwise. Petraeus's comments said much the same thing - 'only one unambiguous case' of an alleged tip off from someone in the ISI prior to a raid.

"Can also be re-written as, 'Pakistan's insurgency is cleary supported from Afghanistan' - per the analysis from Pakistan."

It COULD but that's not how McChrystal's assessment is written. That, however, is EXACTLY what shall transpire once Pakistan has seen the taliban back into power in Afghanistan.

You're next sure as the sun rises in the east.

I forelornly await reading this mythical "analysis" from your army.
I was not referring to McChrystal re-writing that - merely pointing out that the evidence on the Pakistani side supports that particular 'role reversal'.

And Pakistan is not trying to 'see the Taliban back into power in Afghanistan'. That is pure dissemblance ala Haas - Pakistan's position has been clear - include the reconcilable factions of the Taliban in the government. Richard Haas would do well to first listen to and understand the PA's official position on Afghanistan before clinging to conspiracy theories based on an obsolete concept.

And that analysis, of the Pakistani Taliban being supported from Afghanistan, is not 'mythical' - that position has been argued for a few years now by Musharraf, the GoP and military leadership. Do pay attention.

"The incidents in Bajaur and elsewhere where hundreds of Afghan based Taliban crossed the border to assault Pakistani positions and join the Pakistani Taliban in resisting GoP operations testify to that."

Any insurgent army would do so if its sources of sustenence and sanctuary were endangered. For once, that was the case. You'll see FAAAR more of the same when/if you finally enter the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan.

Fortuately, it wasn't sustainable. That will change though if we leave.
One 'source of sustenance and sanctuary' - as the report I posted indicates, the level of violence and the insurgency in Afghanistan did not notice any significant drop despite Bajaur no longer serving as the sort of Taliban stronghold SW and NW are currently.


"If it is not a destabilizing presence, then the need for 'strategic depth' does not arise."

I don't find McChrystal's assessment to be the bollocked product of an "armchair" warrior but your attempt to dissemble misses fully half of the equation that governs "strategic depth". Somehow lost in your critique is the GoP's clear ambition to project pashtu nationalist ambitions away from the Punjab and onto Afghanistan.

That remains an overarching objective of your army's national security strategy.

Oh! BTW, the editorial is written by Richard N. HAASS.
Becoming dyslexic? I was referring to Haas's commentary on 'strategic depth', not McChrystal's, being the reason for Pakistan opposing US troop increases in Afghanistan, despite some of the rationale behind PA reservations being voiced publicly.

Where is this 'clear ambition', where are the signs of pursuing 'strategic depth'? They remain mythical products of minds seeking to concoct excuses for US failures and find scapegoats.

Your 'project Pashtun nationalist ambitions into Afghanistan' is an inherently flawed concept (and is in fact related to my discussion with Post Colonial a few days ago - his argument was that the US was interested in bolstering Pashtun Nationalism in Afghanistan to consolidate Afghanistan).

The concept is flawed since an Afghanistan that has as its identity Pashtun nationalism will in fact be a threat to Pakistan in terms of 're-uniting the Pashtun'. Pakistan's interests are in fact best served with an Afghanistan recognizes its multi-ethnic roots and diversity with the different ethnicities sharing power.

:pakistan:
 
pashtun nationalism is increasing in pakistan but decreasing in afghanistan. many pathans in afghanistan 've understood they must adjust with their fellow afghans 'nd thats what they 're doing. but day by day I see more 'nd more pathans of pakistan become nationalistic 'nd shout 'pashtuns zindabad' instead of pakistan zindabad 'nd it makes me so bloody furious when I ask them where from pakistan 're u 'nd they answer 'I'm from pashtunistan'. there's no pashtunistan damn it!
 
pashtun nationalism is increasing in pakistan but decreasing in afghanistan. many pathans in afghanistan 've understood they must adjust with their fellow afghans 'nd thats what they 're doing. but day by day I see more 'nd more pathans of pakistan become nationalistic 'nd shout 'pashtuns zindabad' instead of pakistan zindabad 'nd it makes me so bloody furious when I ask them where from pakistan 're u 'nd they answer 'I'm from pashtunistan'. there's no pashtunistan damn it!
How did you come to that conclusion? Even the most supported pushtun nationalist party, the ANP is supportive of army actions against terrorists.
 
^we can go back-and-forth on this one but after reading the US COIN MANUAL 2007 edition signed by Lt.Gen Petraeus it is crystal clear to me as to what is wrong with the US/Nato COIN effort in Afghanistan.

it reminds me of a moment in the movie "Patton" where GCScott (as Patton) says "Rommel you brilliant bast**d, I read your book".

strongly suggest the yanks read their book again.

the most important aspect missing in their COIN effort is the "involvement of a afghan civilian re-construction effort". unfortunately they will not get this because the current karzai regime is illegitimate, corrupt and ineffective - the pashtun populace which lives along the afpak border is disinfranchised and has no say in what goes on in their area - they dont support the taliban in the ideological sense, but have no choice as the afghan govt does not have any credibility in their opinion.

the US is stuck between a "rock and a hard place" - which horse to support.

karzai and his criminal war-lords who have sucked up most of the $300 bill poured in by the US (ok not all as most of it goes to sustain the US war effort) but a substantial amount has gone the way of the war-lords.

now why is President Obama "wavering" or delaying his decision to send more troops to afghanistan - he rightly questions the "legitimacy" of the karzai regime and that is why there is "talk" to now talk to some elements of the taliban - include the pashtun populace and not put all your eggs behind the wrong basket - the Northern Alliance aka thugs, criminals, war-crime criminals - the afghan military (80,000 strong as claimed) is full of uzbeks/tajiks who hate the pashtuns - it is demotivated, inefficient and corrupt - their weapons and equipment can be found in the bazzars of peshawar!!!

my friend S-2 has mentioned somewhere else that the US has no choice but to become a "occupying force" and side-step the karzai govt (this i am assuming) - well I just feel may work in the short-term but in the long-term, the COIN will need to provide security, infrastructure, justice to ALL the people of afghanistan and not just the urban areas.

great manual this the US COIN Manual - makes things crystal clear!
 

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