IN Sea Harriers - How this Old Dog compares with the Subcontinent's Newest

[Skull and Bones]

Why Mig 29 is not included in this list... i guess in coming years Mig 29 will be the front line plane for Indian navy.

Mig-29K exceeds Harrier on all capability parameter (not on V/Stol though ), so not worthy comparing Mig-29s with Harriers.

 

[redpearl_75]

1st of all Harrier is one hell of a jet but at its time and not now.. Mig 29K is always better than Harrier in all aspects except the capability of the VTOL feature which honestly is one of the most imp feature of the jet, and makes it most suitable for amphibious roll and not for prioritized air defence roll.. Mig on the other hand is a air superiority multirole fighter and can perform all missions flawlessly.... The only problem with Harriers of the IN is technology gap and lack of proper upgrades.. Compare it with the Harrier II GR series that is no longer in service with any of the nations, it still lacks the technological advantage and we are putting it against Mig 29K which is fresh from the block.. Not fair... There is no point in upgrading the existing harriers in the fleet as it has alreasy reached its lificycle end and half of the fleet is gone..

The only problem with India is that we do not have dedicated Naval fighter wing until now when we are procuring Migs, we should emphasize upon building the same for the Navy as well..

 

[kurup]

Sea Harriers

General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 46 ft 6 in (14.2 m)
Wingspan: 25 ft 3 in (7.6 m)
Height: 12 ft 2 in (3.71 m)
Wing area: 201.1 ft² (18.68 m²)
Empty weight: 14,052 lb (6,374 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 26,200 lb (11,900 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × Rolls-Royce Pegasus turbofan, 21,500 lbf (95.64 kN)

Performance

Maximum speed: 635 knots (735 mph, 1,182 km/h)
Combat radius: 540 nmi (620 mi, 1,000 km)
Ferry range: 1,740 nmi (2,000 mi, 3,600 km)
Service ceiling: 51,000 ft (16,000 m)
Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (250 m/s)

Armament

Guns: 2× 30 mm (1.18 in) ADEN cannon pods under the fuselage, with 130 rounds each
Hardpoints: 4× under-wing pylon stations, and 1 fuselage pylon on centerline plus 2 attach points for gun pods with a total capability of 8,000 lb (3,630 kg) of payload.
Rockets: 4× Matra rocket pods with 18 SNEB 68 mm rockets each
Missiles:

Air-to-air missiles:

AIM-9 Sidewinder
AIM-120 AMRAAM
R550 Magic (Sea Harrier FRS51)

Air-to-surface missile:

ALARM anti-radiation missile (ARM)
Martel missile ARM

Anti-ship missiles:

Sea Eagle
Bombs: A variety of unguided iron bombs (including 3 kg and 14 kg practice bombs) or WE.177 nuclear bomb (until 1992 on RN Sea Harriers

Others:

reconnaissance pods or
2× auxiliary drop tanks for ferry flight or extended range/loitering time

Avionics : Blue Vixen radar

MiG 29K

General characteristics

Crew: One / Two (KUB)
Length: 17.3 m (57.76 ft)
Wingspan: 11.99 m (39.34 ft)
Height: 4.40 m (14.44 ft)
Wing area: 43 m² (462 ft²)
Loaded weight: 18,550 kg (40,900 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 24,500 kg (54,000 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Klimov RD-33MK afterburning turbofans, 9,000 kgf (88.3 kN, 19,800 lbf) each

Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2+ (2,200 km/h, 1,370 mph) / At low altitude: Mach 1.2 (1,400 km/h, 870 mph)
Ferry range: 2,000 km (1,240 mi) / 3,000 km (1,860 mi) with 3 drop tanks
Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,400 ft)
Rate of climb: initial 330 m/s, average 109 m/s 0-6000 m (65,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 442 kg/m² (90.5 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.97

Armament

1 x 30 mm GSh-30-1 cannon with 100 rounds
9 hardpoints (5 wet): 8 x under-wing, 1 x centerline for up to 5,500 kg (12,125 lb) of weapons and fuel tanks, including

Air-to-air missiles

Eight air-to-air missiles — a mix of infrared homing, semi-active radar homing (SARH) and Active radar homing.

AA-11 "Archer"
AA-10 "Alamo"
AA-12 "Adder"
Astra missile BVRAAM
Novator K-100
Rafael Python 5

Air-to-surface missiles

Kh-25ML
Kh-29T
Kh-35U

Anti-radiation missiles

Kh-25MP
Kh-31P

Anti-ship missiles

Kh-31A
Kh-35

Bombs

RBK-250
RBK-500
RBK-750
FAB 500-M62 General-purpose bomb,
FAB-1000, (1,500 kg / 3,300 lb),
KAB-500KR electro-optical TV-guided fire and forget bomb

Others

Flares/Infrared decoys dispenser pod and chaff pod or
Electronic countermeasures (ECM) pod or
Targeting pods or
Refuelling pods or

Avionics

Zhuk -ME radar
Infrared search and track system
SPO-15 Beryoza RWR (radar warning receiver)

 

[Abingdonboy]

The only problem with India is that we do not have dedicated Naval fighter wing until now when we are procuring Migs, we should emphasize upon building the same for the Navy as well..

What are you talking about? The IN has had a dedicated fighter wing ever since 1953 Fairey Fireflys and since then Alize and Hawker Hunters, Sea Harriers and now Mig-29Ks, N-LCA and N-MMRCA.

 

[redpearl_75]

What are you talking about? The IN has had a dedicated fighter wing ever since 1953 Fairey Fireflys and since then Alize and Hawker Hunters, Sea Harriers and now Mig-29Ks, N-LCA and N-MMRCA.

what I intend to say by the word dedicated is that IN never had the figter wing which was emphasized, u r right on what u said, but IN didn't took the initiative of modernizing the available fighter fleet.. Harriers were procured in 1985, this is 2012 and the fleet was only upgraded to carry Matra R550 Magic air-to-air missiles. Neither the Sea Harrier FA2's Blue Vixen radar, the radar warning receiver or AMRAAM capability was proposed to be included and finally the entire project was cancelled for a complete upgrade. My concern is IN's initiative in that part.. Look at the naval fleet and its getting upgraded to the max, Naval LCA was proposed only after LCA was in picture.. Now that we are in the pipeline of procuring Groshkov n IAC, Mig 29K came into pic. INS Viraat was upgraded with anti air and cruise missile capability, but look at its fllet.. Half already gone..

 

[MiG-21]

This was not intended to be a Harrier vs PAF topic guys, I was comparing LCA too. Basically I wanted everyone to see how Harrier fared against the Desi counterparts. Besides the desi ones, PAF has around 120 BVR-less Mirage-3s & Mirage-5s, and 180 F-7s, while the IAF has hundreds of MiG-27s and Jaguars, to put things in perspective wrt the Harriers.

Yea, like some members have already pointed out, didn't bring in MiG-29K for obvious reasons.

Your pint about the N-LCA having "spectacularly" lower specs to AF version is incorrect. The N-LCAs that enter service will be based on the Mk.II version adpmd as such will have a more powerful GE engine so the specs will not be significantly different to Mk.I AF versions.

Let the Mk-II fly first. I was comparing the non carrier capable N-LCA Mk-I.

Only if we ignore that the LCA and JF 17 have better flight performance, lower RCS, bigger noses for radars with bigger diameter and longer detection range, the better avionics and so on. Having the same radar and BVR missile as LCA doesn't make it as capapable!
Today they are more useful in the strike role like we have seen in Afghanistan and Libya and would have formed a good mix with INs Mig 29K, even better than N-LCA.

Lets not forget the Jammer pods while talking about RCS shall we.

Let the JF-17 finish testing the SD-10 and get operational clearance, same for the KG-300 chinese pod(god knows how good the chinese pod will be). As for LCA, let it fire an BVR missile first, let alone integration of a pod.

what I intend to say by the word dedicated is that IN never had the figter wing which was emphasized, u r right on what u said, but IN didn't took the initiative of modernizing the available fighter fleet.. Harriers were procured in 1985, this is 2012 and the fleet was only upgraded to carry Matra R550 Magic air-to-air missiles. Neither the Sea Harrier FA2's Blue Vixen radar, the radar warning receiver or AMRAAM capability was proposed to be included and finally the entire project was cancelled for a complete upgrade. My concern is IN's initiative in that part.. Look at the naval fleet and its getting upgraded to the max, Naval LCA was proposed only after LCA was in picture.. Now that we are in the pipeline of procuring Groshkov n IAC, Mig 29K came into pic. INS Viraat was upgraded with anti air and cruise missile capability, but look at its fllet.. Half already gone..

I even stylized my opening post particularly for guys like you and still you failed to read it. I even posted a pic. What is wrong with you? Maybe next time I should start using different colors and increase the font size to gigantic proportions.
After reading it, I suggest you Google IN Sea Harrier upgrade and read it in-depth.

 

[arp2041]

what I intend to say by the word dedicated is that IN never had the figter wing which was emphasized, u r right on what u said, but IN didn't took the initiative of modernizing the available fighter fleet.. Harriers were procured in 1985, this is 2012 and the fleet was only upgraded to carry Matra R550 Magic air-to-air missiles. Neither the Sea Harrier FA2's Blue Vixen radar, the radar warning receiver or AMRAAM capability was proposed to be included and finally the entire project was cancelled for a complete upgrade. My concern is IN's initiative in that part.. Look at the naval fleet and its getting upgraded to the max, Naval LCA was proposed only after LCA was in picture.. Now that we are in the pipeline of procuring Groshkov n IAC, Mig 29K came into pic. INS Viraat was upgraded with anti air and cruise missile capability, but look at its fllet.. Half already gone..

nope, that is not the case, IN was afraid earlier of inducting fighter aircrafts, since IAF objected to it, that it was solely it's domain which IN is entering & with su-30mki's induction it further pressured IN not to buy any fighters for protecting it's surface fleet. So it only procured limited no. of sea harriers earlier, but now with IN growing surface fleet & increased role in IOR + MOD's clearance, IN is inducting fighter aircrafts at a pace such that in a decade it's aviation wing will be comparable to many Air forces in the world, mig 29k's + NLCA + MMRCA will make the IN fighter fleet count at around 200 formidable aircrafts.


off topic - frnds now we cannot post even visitor messages if we don't have 10k posts????

 

[david blain]

T Mk.60 - Dual-seat trainer

 

[subincb]

what I intend to say by the word dedicated is that IN never had the figter wing which was emphasized, u r right on what u said, but IN didn't took the initiative of modernizing the available fighter fleet.. Harriers were procured in 1985, this is 2012 and the fleet was only upgraded to carry Matra R550 Magic air-to-air missiles. Neither the Sea Harrier FA2's Blue Vixen radar, the radar warning receiver or AMRAAM capability was proposed to be included and finally the entire project was cancelled for a complete upgrade. My concern is IN's initiative in that part.. Look at the naval fleet and its getting upgraded to the max, Naval LCA was proposed only after LCA was in picture.. Now that we are in the pipeline of procuring Groshkov n IAC, Mig 29K came into pic. INS Viraat was upgraded with anti air and cruise missile capability, but look at its fllet.. Half already gone..

Not upgraded is not right. It was upgraded to Elta 2032 and Derby missiles plus a whole lot of other goodies not mentioned. IN started losing Aircraft on a regular basis(not just after end of service life) and they felt the platform is not reliable. It says 12 but it was just 6 or so when viraat came here.

Indian Navy flying wing was always important and no one can forget 1971 role. Viraat the only carrier right now can use only Harrier and thats why navy did not emphasis on their air wing. Currently Navy is searching for better and better platforms for Vikramaditya and Vikrant. They are even investing on research in India due to these facts.