In Madrid people throw their garbage at the banks entrance

[Audio]

shot himself before the match.

LOL, amazing. So, what you're saying there was no competition present, no space race, no fights through proxy, rivalry that extended into the Olympics etc etc

Are you Chinese by any chance? Only from them one can expect such falsification of facts conveyed with a straight face.

Stop embarrasing yourself.

 

[xenon54 out]

You can blame even Satan. But the guilty for the collapse of the USSR - Gorbachev. He tried to cure the socialist economy with capitalist methods. Although, in fact - he deliberately ruined the state - the Party, and the economy.

These three qouotes from the link i gave you pretty much describes why economy is to blame.

''The Soviet system is not working because the workers are not working.''

''They pretent to pay us and we pretend to work.''

''First there was a visible decline in the rate of growth, then its complete stagnation. There was a drawnout, deepening and almost insurmountable crisis in agriculture. It was a frightening and truly terrifying sign of crisis. It was these factors that were crucial in the transition to perestroika.''

 

[vostok]

LOL, amazing. So, what you're saying there was no competition present, no space race, no fights through proxy, rivalry that extended into the Olympics etc etc

Are you Chinese by any chance? Only from them one can expect such falsification of facts conveyed with a straight face.

Stop embarrasing yourself.

These three qouotes from the link i gave you pretty much describes why economy is to blame.

''The Soviet system is not working because the workers are not working.''

''They pretent to pay us and we pretend to work.''

''First there was a visible decline in the rate of growth, then its complete stagnation. There was a drawnout, deepening and almost insurmountable crisis in agriculture. It was a frightening and truly terrifying sign of crisis. It was these factors that were crucial in the transition to perestroika.''

Guys, you are seriously trying to tell me about life in my own country?
Maybe I should know better about?
I have lived in the country, my parents lived there, their parents lived.
And you know about it from some cheap propaganda brochure of Goebbels and his disciples.

 

[xenon54 out]

Guys, you are seriously trying to tell me about life in my own country?
Maybe I should know better about?
I have lived in the country, my parents lived there, their parents lived.
And you know about it from some cheap propaganda brochure of Goebbels and his disciples.

No further discussion needed.

 

[Audio]

Guys, you are seriously trying to tell me about life in my own country?
Maybe I should know better about?
I have lived in the country, my parents lived there, their parents lived.
And you know about it from some cheap propaganda brochure of Goebbels and his disciples.

You know it from cheap Stalinist propaganda. What's the difference?

Bottom line, USSR collapsed in large part due to economic problems, there was also a social and political element but economics played a part quite larger then you are willing to admit. And you aren't willing to admit it because of aforementioned Stalinist propaganda.

Come to think of it, you have it so ingrained in you, you refuse even to admit who won the cold war and you make up some silly statements about one guy shooting himself in the foot before the race starts and how there were no problems until the mid 80's.
Laughable. If there were no problems, Gorbatchev wouldn't be forced to implement reforms, coincidentally in the mid 80's. Logic is amazing isn't it?
You shoot yourself in the foot with fallacies like above.

 

[vostok]

You know it from cheap Stalinist propaganda. What's the difference?

Bottom line, USSR collapsed in large part due to economic problems, there was also a social and political element but economics played a part quite larger then you are willing to admit. And you aren't willing to admit it because of aforementioned Stalinist propaganda.

Come to think of it, you have it so ingrained in you, you refuse even to admit who won the cold war and you make up some silly statements about one guy shooting himself in the foot before the race starts and how there were no problems until the mid 80's.
Laughable. If there were no problems, Gorbatchev wouldn't be forced to implement reforms, coincidentally in the mid 80's. Logic is amazing isn't it?
You shoot yourself in the foot with fallacies like above.

Do not underestimate your own life experience.
You've learned something by directly interacting with the world and watching it?
Try something on your own experience - is to know really, by your own feelings, not by books or TV. What can you know about the Soviet Union if all what you have been told about it - enemies words?
They lied to you.
USSR - at the moment the only socialist state in human history. The fact that it no longer exists - it does not mean anything. Now there is an alternative for humanity and the future, which means sooner or later humanity will step to the next level.
I would be interested to see the dialogue feudal and slave-owner. I am 100% sure that the slave-owner would find 1,000,000 reasons why slavery is better than feudalism.
However, after slavery came feudalism. After feudalism, capitalism has come. After capitalism come socialism. And so on. These steps are inevitable as progress, as evolution. They can not stop - unless humanity will be destroyed.
And sometimes happened that after the bourgeois revolution was restored the monarchy and feudalism. It does not mean anything.
Next socialist society would be deprived of most of the disadvantages of socialism of the USSR.

 

[Audio]

Do not underestimate your own life experience.
You've learned something by directly interacting with the world and watching it?
Try something on your own experience - is to know really, by your own feelings, not by books or TV. What can you know about the Soviet Union if all what you have been told about it - enemies words?
They lied to you.
USSR - at the moment the only socialist state in human history. The fact that it no longer exists - it does not mean anything. Now there is an alternative for humanity and the future, which means sooner or later humanity will step to the next level.
I would be interested to see the dialogue feudal and slave-owner. I am 100% sure that the slave-owner would find 1,000,000 reasons why slavery is better than feudalism.
However, after slavery came feudalism. After feudalism, capitalism has come. After capitalism come socialism. And so on. These steps are inevitable as progress, as evolution. They can not stop - unless humanity will be destroyed.
And sometimes happened that after the bourgeois revolution was restored the monarchy and feudalism. It does not mean anything.
Next socialist society would be deprived of most of the disadvantages of socialism of the USSR.

Yep, Stalinist propaganda.

 

[vostok]

Yep, Stalinist propaganda.

You know what I'm reminded of this kind of talk ?
Well , imagine - you're living on a normal street with normal neighbors.
Here I come and say to you on the network - in your street instead of houses landfill , and your neighbors - the homeless .
You're talking to me - no, man, I can see with my own eyes that there decent houses and decent people . I sagely nod my head and deny it - no, I'm telling you , it's all propaganda . On your street there are no decent homes. In general, there are no houses and no street at all - it's a dump.
And how are you going to speak with such a guy?

 

[Audio]

You know what I'm reminded of this kind of talk ?
Well , imagine - you're living on a normal street with normal neighbors.
Here I come and say to you on the network - in your street instead of houses landfill , and your neighbors - the homeless .
You're talking to me - no, man, I can see with my own eyes that there decent houses and decent people . I sagely nod my head and deny it - no, I'm telling you , it's all propaganda . On your street there are no decent homes. In general, there are no houses and no street at all - it's a dump.
And how are you going to speak with such a guy?

It's all pretty well documented. And in case you say it's western propaganda, you have the whole 90's to remind you. That is, if you were alive during the 90's.

 

[livingdead]

@vostok : coincidentally this was one of the topic in yesterday's question time, a popular TV debate program in BBC where a panel of politicians/eminent persons from other walks of life answer topical questions from studio audience.

One panel member wanted to renationalise all british energy companies (due to high energy price), rail and banks because the system is 'not working'. It drew heavy applause from predominantly young audience before an old man said 'please no socialism again. I am old enough to live through the socialism times, and everything that you blaming now were terrible. One would need to apply months in advance to get a telephone line.'

Some people might have fond memory of socialism because state took care of them, even though life was not brilliant and they were more or less chained. The same could be achieved by unchaining the population(more money available for improvement), and giving economic safety net to poor people.

 

[vostok]

It's all pretty well documented. And in case you say it's western propaganda, you have the whole 90's to remind you. That is, if you were alive during the 90's.

Documents? They can be made in any cellar.
The bottom line is that after the assassination of Stalin Soviet economy became less and less effective. Under Stalin was no queues, deficit, bureaucracy. The economy has been growing at 20-30% per annum (exept the War).
What is the most important thing in a socialist economy? Planning. Stalin created a unique institution of the State Planning Commission - tens of thousands of scientists were constantly researching and giving advice to industry. The system worked perfectly. Prices were falling every year, wages grew every year.
Khrushchev, one of Stalin's assassins, was also the murderer of the Soviet economy - he destroyed the State Planning Commission. The system is not working as it should.
Brezhnev returned the Planning Commission, but in a highly abbreviated form - socialist economy grew, but slowly.
Gorbachev destroyed everything.
Guess who liked the most and who most hated in the West?

 

[vostok]

No further discussion needed.

Do you think the Americans invented something new when they lied about the Soviet Union?
American propaganda was based on the "work" of Goebbels.

 

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

there is only one alternative - socialism.

That ideal is beyond the grasp of humanity. Unfortunately.

 

[vostok]

That ideal is beyond the grasp of humanity. Unfortunately.

Do not underestimate the human race. We got out of the caves, is not it?
And I'm sure absolute majority at that time were very critical of the possible existence out of the caves. Rather, a much more critical than capitalists thinks about the possibility of socialism.
It's nothing. The world is changing by singles - the crowd always follows them.
We got out of the caves - and will get out of capitalism.

 

[livingdead]

Do not underestimate the human race. We got out of the caves, is not it?
And I'm sure absolute majority at that time were very critical of the possible existence out of the caves. Rather, a much more critical than capitalists thinks about the possibility of socialism.
It's nothing. The world is changing by singles - the crowd always follows them.
We got out of the caves - and will get out of capitalism.

can you tell us how the new socialism will work when old one did not. At least in India, it was utter failure the ill effect of which (mass poverty) we are still seeing today.

However many western countries have adopted some nice bits from socialism, like giving safety net to poor people, a taxation system that is friendly to poor. etc.
But we still need capitalism to fund these.