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In favor of Hindutva; by a Pakistani muslim

You don't sound crazy. Just hostile to the idea of a secular nation, that demands that religion should not determine the rights of our citizens.

Yeah 'In God we Trust' has been defined by the American Supreme court repeatedly. Some of those famous cases include
'Stephan Aronow vs United states of America'

In this the problem was the printing of 'In God we Trust' on all currency notes and coinage passed by a law by congress. Stephen filed a public litigation as a tax prayer and concerned citizen that it violated the principles of first amendment in the establishment clause which had stated that the congress could not pass any law that was religious in nature or would prohibit the exercise of religion or its practice. The district court highlighted that he had no locus standi as the law had not violated the principles of the first amendment. It was then brought to its first appeal where the court highlighted that it was not empowered to do so since in the case of Massachusetts vs melons the court had adopted the doctrine of standing and pointed out that the courts cannot simply review the unconstitutional act of the congress and the question could only be considered when there is involvement or justification based on direct injury suffered or threatened. They court agreed with the district court since the appellate had not suffered any injury then he had no standing however they did not implement the doctrine of standing and decided to answer the question still. The court highlighted that the national motto has nothing to do with establishment of religion. Its usage is patriotic and of ceremonial in nature and does not give the image of government exercise to establishment of any religion. The court stated that the term 'In God we trust' is simply a term and not a support for any specific religion. Infact the court highlighted the Theodore Roosevelt saw its usage as sacrilegious due to its ceremonial and secular credentials. The court also stated that the courts will not tolerate governmental interference with religion or attempts to bring forth a government established religion.



'Mcgowan vs Maryland' ( which spoke of religion and secularism and its interconnected nature)

Elk Groove unified School district vs NewDow 2004

Lamberd vs Board of commisioners of Davidson county'

American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio vs Capital square Review Advisory board'


In the comments of Justice Sandra, the term has lost its religious value and it has now entered Ceremonial deism and its constant repetition has given it a secular meaning and has become an expression of patriotism. Justice sandra pointed that it highlighted the role of religion in national life and it was this that gave it secular flavor that the role of religion, not singular religion but all religions for all those that follow in their lives, the role it plays. In the elk groove case the good justice worded that its usage is in no way an endorsement of religion by the government or state and for those that truly respect history, they would understand the meaning behind the motto.

In newdow vs congress, it was again held that the motto does not violate the separation of state and religion and the national motto is excluded from the first amendment because the motto has no theological or ritualistic impact and is of solely secular, patriotic and ceremonial nature.


All these cases have one thing in common that they have repeatedly highlighted separation of state and religion and they have repeatedly highlighted that the motto is not religious. Now the most interesting thing in my eyes is their interpretation.

Firstly they interpreted the motto as secular despite having religious undertones. The reason is because unlike the majority of idiots found in our region, the courts in US actually know what secular is and it is not synonym with irreligious but is the state treatment of all religions equally. There exists no superiority and to make sure such exists and balance is maintained, the doctrine of separation of state and religion comes to be. The doctrine is itself is the child of secularism because secularism, in its meaning, simply tries to create equality amongst all religions and to truly be equal, the sovereign power cannot have the power to interfere in religious matter since the sovereign power is also human and is open to bias like take the case of theodore Roosevalt and his dislike for the motto.

Secondly a highlight that while a phrase will lose religious significance if it is used repeatedly as patriotic and if it gains ceremonial nature then the religious meaning will be changed. What i truly like in this is the advancement of thought that the motto is not slave to the maker nor the America of that time but to the meaning and the America of now and indeed that in the future it will no longer be slave to America of now but to the America of future. They explained it through how people see it rather than how they used to see it and that is the evolution of constitutional governance in a country. Do you see, a person born of our region where we try to throw everything back to our founding fathers or to our great leaders without thinking that rather than try to interpret their meanings and highlight their speeches, we need to spend time figuring out what we want from the country and what we need to see out country as so that we can live just lives without oppression. Did you notice the clarity of thought in their interpretation. The jurisprudence of our region pales in comparison.

Anyhow this was meant to be a great highlight how US state is not religious and the usage of this motto does not mean that US is religious and frankly in a perfect world, you guys should have tried to emulate the secularism they had.
 
But Majority is demanding Hindutva country.
The question isn't whether they have the right to have a Hindutva country.
The question is whether India can survive, prosper and live with being a Hindutva country and what the consequences will be for the minorities, and indeed for the great number of Hindus who wish for India to be a democratic, liberal, secular, tolerant country.
 
Let me tell you this from the perspective of an Indian Muslim. Compared to the tiny Indian Parsi community why hasn't the Indian Muslim community fared well in getting itself into a better socio-economic position ? Compare the common Indian Muslim especially of the last 20 years with the past intellectual movements in Muslim-majority countries like Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Syria etc.

This is BS excuse. You are well aware vast majority of Indian muslims are dalit converts. Comparing them with historically literate community is moronic. These upper caste hindutvas are picking fight with indigenous dalit Indians to get back at long dead central asian invaders, don't you find this stupid?

You heard of Sindhi hindus right? I'm sure they are known as being as good as parsis. Meanwhile see condition of sindhi muslims, you will not find more illiterate people in south asia. Yet their representation in every department was made sure based on quota.
 
Well, the ship has long sailed.
I doubt Hindus are even 70% in India as of today.

A lot of South "Hindus" are already converted and keep their Hindu name for caste benefits...

Nah that can't be right.By the way what have the southerns converted to? I've met a fair few here in the UK, strong Hindus. But they don't get involved in the indo/pak stuff.
 
Well, I may sound crazy, but yes, I fully support the idea of constitution of a Hindu national country in our neighborhood.
At the time of partition, muslims were 24% of the total population, yet they demanded a separate country. My forefathers supported that idea, I also stick to it.
However, Hindus were 85 percent, and even today, they are 80% in India. And yet they are not allowed to declare India as a Hindu country.

My question is why not?

If USA can write : In god(christian god) we trust, why can't a Hindu do the same? If top leadership in USA and Germany and even in Russia today declares themselves Christians, Pakistan and Iran can use the name Islamic republic, why only Hindu is pushed to declare themselves as secular? Why can't Hindus also write Hindu republic or Sanatana Republic?

I kick this bigotry and superlative hypocrisy. In my humble opinion, Hindus reserve full right to declare India as Hindus Rashtra.

Individual thoughts please.
@Joe Shearer dont kill me for my thoughts, but I really think that Hindus are victim here.
@Nilgiri @pothead @Soumitra @jamahir
Why would India want to regress in the 21st century when most of the other progressive countries are trying to stay as away from religion as they can? Religion is currently being pushed more and more away from mainstream thought as common people get access to information because of the internet and thus these common people can no longer be fooled by the religious nuts.

So no, this won't happen. India is not a Hindu republic precisely because the Hindus (who are the majority) don't want a Hindu republic. Any theocratic state will simply be a sham where illogical and unscientific things will find prominence among the minds of the common folks with an inability to think for themselves.
 
Why would India want to regress in the 21st century when most of the other progressive countries are trying to stay as away from religion as they can? Religion is currently being pushed more and more away from mainstream thought as common people get access to information because of the internet and thus these common people can no longer be fooled by the religious nuts.

So no, this won't happen. India is not a Hindu republic precisely because the Hindus (who are the majority) don't want a Hindu republic. Any theocratic state will simply be a sham where illogical and unscientific things will find prominence among the minds of the common folks with an inability to think for themselves.

What an extraordinary claim since in the past "Non secular" Hindu India was the global leader in scientific thinking and inventions and economy and trade and music and art and literature and architecture.

In fact, most of the migrations of Jews, Syrian christian and Parsis happend into "Non Secular" Hindu India.

It is "secular" India which is protesting against CAA :lol:


Clearly the Irony is lost on you.
 
Nah that can't be right.By the way what have the southerns converted to? I've met a fair few here in the UK, strong Hindus. But they don't get involved in the indo/pak stuff.
They have been "saved".

It's actually kind of true, can't say to what extent though.
 
Yeah 'In God we Trust' has been defined by the American Supreme court repeatedly. Some of those famous cases include
'Stephan Aronow vs United states of America'

In this the problem was the printing of 'In God we Trust' on all currency notes and coinage passed by a law by congress. Stephen filed a public litigation as a tax prayer and concerned citizen that it violated the principles of first amendment in the establishment clause which had stated that the congress could not pass any law that was religious in nature or would prohibit the exercise of religion or its practice. The district court highlighted that he had no locus standi as the law had not violated the principles of the first amendment. It was then brought to its first appeal where the court highlighted that it was not empowered to do so since in the case of Massachusetts vs melons the court had adopted the doctrine of standing and pointed out that the courts cannot simply review the unconstitutional act of the congress and the question could only be considered when there is involvement or justification based on direct injury suffered or threatened. They court agreed with the district court since the appellate had not suffered any injury then he had no standing however they did not implement the doctrine of standing and decided to answer the question still. The court highlighted that the national motto has nothing to do with establishment of religion. Its usage is patriotic and of ceremonial in nature and does not give the image of government exercise to establishment of any religion. The court stated that the term 'In God we trust' is simply a term and not a support for any specific religion. Infact the court highlighted the Theodore Roosevelt saw its usage as sacrilegious due to its ceremonial and secular credentials. The court also stated that the courts will not tolerate governmental interference with religion or attempts to bring forth a government established religion.



'Mcgowan vs Maryland' ( which spoke of religion and secularism and its interconnected nature)

Elk Groove unified School district vs NewDow 2004

Lamberd vs Board of commisioners of Davidson county'

American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio vs Capital square Review Advisory board'


In the comments of Justice Sandra, the term has lost its religious value and it has now entered Ceremonial deism and its constant repetition has given it a secular meaning and has become an expression of patriotism. Justice sandra pointed that it highlighted the role of religion in national life and it was this that gave it secular flavor that the role of religion, not singular religion but all religions for all those that follow in their lives, the role it plays. In the elk groove case the good justice worded that its usage is in no way an endorsement of religion by the government or state and for those that truly respect history, they would understand the meaning behind the motto.

In newdow vs congress, it was again held that the motto does not violate the separation of state and religion and the national motto is excluded from the first amendment because the motto has no theological or ritualistic impact and is of solely secular, patriotic and ceremonial nature.


All these cases have one thing in common that they have repeatedly highlighted separation of state and religion and they have repeatedly highlighted that the motto is not religious. Now the most interesting thing in my eyes is their interpretation.

Firstly they interpreted the motto as secular despite having religious undertones. The reason is because unlike the majority of idiots found in our region, the courts in US actually know what secular is and it is not synonym with irreligious but is the state treatment of all religions equally. There exists no superiority and to make sure such exists and balance is maintained, the doctrine of separation of state and religion comes to be. The doctrine is itself is the child of secularism because secularism, in its meaning, simply tries to create equality amongst all religions and to truly be equal, the sovereign power cannot have the power to interfere in religious matter since the sovereign power is also human and is open to bias like take the case of theodore Roosevalt and his dislike for the motto.

Secondly a highlight that while a phrase will lose religious significance if it is used repeatedly as patriotic and if it gains ceremonial nature then the religious meaning will be changed. What i truly like in this is the advancement of thought that the motto is not slave to the maker nor the America of that time but to the meaning and the America of now and indeed that in the future it will no longer be slave to America of now but to the America of future. They explained it through how people see it rather than how they used to see it and that is the evolution of constitutional governance in a country. Do you see, a person born of our region where we try to throw everything back to our founding fathers or to our great leaders without thinking that rather than try to interpret their meanings and highlight their speeches, we need to spend time figuring out what we want from the country and what we need to see out country as so that we can live just lives without oppression. Did you notice the clarity of thought in their interpretation. The jurisprudence of our region pales in comparison.

Anyhow this was meant to be a great highlight how US state is not religious and the usage of this motto does not mean that US is religious and frankly in a perfect world, you guys should have tried to emulate the secularism they had.

Thank you, I really enjoyed reading your views, and the information contained therein.

Few things that made me smile, in that I found the logic suspect but workable. Thanks again, for this lovey piece, made my day, stay blessed.
 
The question isn't whether they have the right to have a Hindutva country.
The question is whether India can survive, prosper and live with being a Hindutva country and what the consequences will be for the minorities, and indeed for the great number of Hindus who wish for India to be a democratic, liberal, secular, tolerant country.

Brilliantly put.

We will not be what we were if we change to that horribly narrow-minded model.

And you got it precisely right; not only the minorities, but even non-bigoted Hindus will suffer.
 
What an extraordinary claim since in the past "Non secular" Hindu India was the global leader in scientific thinking and inventions and economy and trade and music and art and literature and architecture.

In fact, most of the migrations of Jews, Syrian christian and Parsis happend into "Non Secular" Hindu India.
Those were different times where there wasn't much of a notion of a religious state since most of the people followed similar traditions/culture and thus nothing to be insecure about.
It is "secular" India which is protesting against CAA :lol:


Clearly the Irony is lost on you.
There wouldn't have been these issues if all subcontinent people would have consciously restricted their religion to their home. I get the irony but as I mentioned those were different times and the present is a different time.

We need to look at the future instead of the past.
 
Nah that can't be right.By the way what have the southerns converted to? I've met a fair few here in the UK, strong Hindus. But they don't get involved in the indo/pak stuff.

Neither the south nor the east, although in the east, Bengal and Assam still have not thought through their attitude towards Bangladesh and Bangladeshis. Apart from that, folks there, after Bihar, look blankly at you if you come out with something about Pakistan.

So no, this won't happen. India is not a Hindu republic precisely because the Hindus (who are the majority) don't want a Hindu republic. Any theocratic state will simply be a sham where illogical and unscientific things will find prominence among the minds of the common folks with an inability to think for themselves.

Again, @Longhorn, this bears out, from an Indian poster, precisely what you said.
 
They have been "saved".

It's actually kind of true, can't say to what extent though.

Oh ok Christians. But how are you guys sure of this? The South has huge Hindu festivals, they also seem more on it if you get my drift.
 
Well, I may sound crazy, but yes, I fully support the idea of constitution of a Hindu national country in our neighborhood.
At the time of partition, muslims were 24% of the total population, yet they demanded a separate country. My forefathers supported that idea, I also stick to it.
However, Hindus were 85 percent, and even today, they are 80% in India. And yet they are not allowed to declare India as a Hindu country.

My question is why not?

If USA can write : In god(christian god) we trust, why can't a Hindu do the same? If top leadership in USA and Germany and even in Russia today declares themselves Christians, Pakistan and Iran can use the name Islamic republic, why only Hindu is pushed to declare themselves as secular? Why can't Hindus also write Hindu republic or Sanatana Republic?

I kick this bigotry and superlative hypocrisy. In my humble opinion, Hindus reserve full right to declare India as Hindus Rashtra.

Individual thoughts please.
@Joe Shearer dont kill me for my thoughts, but I really think that Hindus are victim here.
@Nilgiri @pothead @Soumitra @jamahir

Did that Imran Hosein throw up in you or something?
 

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