Imran Khan Answers his Religious critics in this New interview.

[airmarshal]

Ahmedis are non-Muslim and there is no debate on this.

Ahmedis should stop calling themselves as Muslims and that where the problem arises.

 

[ajpirzada]

Bullshit! There is virtually NO divine claim to WHOSE beliefs are "correct" or "false" especially when original religion of Islam has been turned into hundreds if not thousands of different schools of thoughts, branches, sects and denominations in the last 1400 years:
Islamic schools and branches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Oneness of God and the finality of the prophet-hood is a divine claim as far as Islam is concerned:

"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing." (Quran 33:40)

There is no violation of human rights going on here in declaring Qadianis as non-muslims. They had even taken their case to the Human Rights Commission of the U.N.O in Aug 1988 arguing that their rights were being violated by the Pak Govt. Except for the 2 judges, the remaining 13 ruled against them.

moreover, the sectarian divide is more to do with the 'theological' beliefs rather than legal rulings: eg. Barelvis and Deobandis fight over theological issues but when it comes to legal framework they both follow Hanafi school. Its obvious enough that Muslims lived under the Shariah (legal) rule for more than 1300 years despite broad sectarian divides. How? Because the legal divide was no different than the differences in legal framework across the provincial units under one federation: e.g. where majority was Hanafi (Indo-Pak, central asia etc), hanafi legal school was applied. Likewise the State chose its own legal framework when it came to broad governance: eg. Otomon chose Hanafi legal principles in running the State affairs. Again this is no different from today's federation.

Sufism is not a legal school but a way of conducting your life. Almost all of the Sufis belong to either of the historical legal schools.

 

[airmarshal]

Qadianis are declared non-Muslim only in handful of Islamic countries. In rest of the world where governments do not meddle with people's religious affairs, they are declared Muslim as rest of Islamic sects. Qadianis in India are still considered Muslims where this faith was born. Its not secular state's JOB to declare who is Muslim and who is not. And then punish those who still defy this ban on calling themselves Muslims. LOL

You said dont meddle in their religious affairs. So that means anyone can create any mischief and misunderstanding on a free will. This must not be allowed in an Islamic country.

Qadianis are non-Muslim. Just accept this fact and live with it. Why Qadianis want to be known as Muslim in not understandable.

Just be what you are and live with it. No one should kill a qaiani on him being non-Muslim. At the same time, qadianis must stop declaring themselves as Muslims and force others to call them Muslim.

 

[qamar1990]

If IK is for justice, first thing he has gotta do is to remove anti-Qadiani bigotry from constitution of Pakistan. It was PPP and later Zia's Islamization policies that destroyed secular irreligious nature of our once prosperous state of the 60's. IK often quotes 60's as the best times of our history in his speeches. If so, then he has got to repeal those acts of constitution that are unjustified in constitution of Pakistan.

prosperous?? my ***.
our country was dirt poor back then and its dirt poor now…. most people live much easier lives now..

I don't agree with the Ahmediya Creed but I want the Second Amendment to be repealed !

@Jazzbot @HRK - Khan nei disappoint kiyaa !

do ahmedis consider us the rest of us muslims since we reject mirza ghulam ahmed??
@Norwegian @Jaanbaz @Akheilos @syedali73 @RazPaK

There was NO discrimination in Jinnah's first cabinet. Here is a list of some non-Muslims hand picked by Jinnah to administer Pakistan:
Jogendra Nath Mandal Minister for Labour and Law (Hindu)
Muhammad Zafrullah Khan was inducted as Minister for Foreign Affairs and Commonwealth relations (Qadiani)
Sir Frederick Bourne was the Governor of East Bengal, Sir Francis Mudie the Governor of West Punjab and Sir George Cunningham the Governor of N.W.F.P. (Christian and British)
And here is a quote on this cabinet's performance:
James A. Michener, a visitor to Pakistan in the early years, wrote, “I have never seen so hardworking a government as Pakistan’s. It is literally licking itself by its own intellectual book-straps”.
First Cabinet (1947) | History PakHistory Pak

Now compare first cabinet of Pakistan composed of many non-Muslims with the kind of extreme Muslim cabinets that came after Islamic supremacist Objectives Resolution was passed under Liaquat Ali Khan's administration (after death of Jinnah) and its response by a non-Muslim minister of the opposition:

In my conception of state where people of different religion live there is no place for religion in the state. Its position must be neutral: no bias for any religion. If necessary, it should help all the religions equally. No question of concession or tolerance to any religion. It smacks of inferiority complex. The state must respect all religions: no smiling face for one and askance look to the other. The state religion is a dangerous principle. Previous instances are sufficient to warn us not to repeat the blunder. We know people were burnt alive in the name of religion. Therefore, my conception is that the sovereignty must rest with the people and not with anybody else....[T]he words "equal rights as enunciated by Islam" are—I do not use any other word—a camouflage. It is only a hoax to us, the non-Muslims. There cannot be equal rights as enunciated by Islam. It goes without saying that by introducing the religious question, the differences between the majority and the minority are being perpetuated, for how long, nobody knows. And, as apprehended by us, the difficulty of interpretation has already arisen. The accepted principle is that the majority, by their fair treatment, must create confidence in the minority. Whereas the Honorable mover of the resolution promises respect, in place of charity or sufferance for the minority community the deputy minister, Dr. Qureshi, advises the minority to win the goodwill of the majority by their behavior. In the House of the Legislature also we find that, while the prime minister keeps perfectly to his dictum, others cannot brook that the opposition should function in the spirit of opposition. The demand is that the opposition should remain submissive. That is Dr. Qureshi’s way of thinking. The minorities must be grateful for all the benevolence they get and must never complain for the malevolence that may also be dealt out to them. That is his solution of the minority problem.
Objectives Resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So now we know that state sponsored discrimination of Pakistani non-Muslims or minorities started with Objectives Resolution in 1949. It only got worse after Khatm-e-Nabuwwat psychos got in the picture and forced Bhutto to sign into constitution anti-Qadiani bigotry laws of Blasphemy that under Zia's regime forced them to not even call themselves 'Muslim'. Such state monopoly of religion deciding who should call himself Muslim or not is the main reason why Pakistan became a jungle of systematic unjust as we know it today. It started with the discrimination of minorities, specifically Hindus and Qadianis and later eclipsed Christians, Shias and other minorities of Pakistan leaving only Sunnis intact. Good job Pakistan - land of the pure Sunnis!


Yes, act like your prophet. Slaughter all Ahmedis, Qadianis, Shias and others who do not agree with your Wahhabi-Sunni worldview. LOL!

so three governors of pakistan were british whites???
how could pakistanis make such a stupid mistake by putting three british whites as governors??

 

[Norwegian]

Ahmedis are non-Muslim and there is no debate on this.

Qadianis are Muslim or not is not up to some state politicians to decide. We may call ISIS, Hamas, Taliban, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda and other barbarian terrorists "non-Muslim". In reality they do everything in the name of Islam. LOLZ

Ahmedis should stop calling themselves as Muslims and that where the problem arises.

Why should they? Can you force Muslim or Islamic terrorist organisations and their supporters to declare themselves non-Muslim terrorists?

"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing." (Quran 33:40)

'Last of the prophets' is not the only interpretation of that word:
Khatam an-Nabiyyin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is no violation of human rights going on here in declaring Qadianis as non-muslims.

Bollox!

Ahmadis are declared as non-Muslims and further deprived of religious rights in the Second Amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan and Ordinance XX. Hundreds of Ahmadis were killed in 1953 Lahore riots, 1974 Anti-Ahmadiyya riots and May 2010 attacks on Ahmadi mosques in Lahore. 1974 riots were the largest killings of Ahmadis.

Persecution of Ahmadis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What human rights?

Likewise the State chose its own legal framework when it came to broad governance: eg. Otomon chose Hanafi legal principles in running the State affairs. Again this is no different from today's federation.

Religion has no business with state affairs. Its the root of all evil in politics!
Separation of church and state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You said dont meddle in their religious affairs. So that means anyone can create any mischief and misunderstanding on a free will. This must not be allowed in an Islamic country.

LOL. Tell that to Islamic Terrorist organisations operating within Muslim majority countries worldwide
Islamic terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Qadianis are non-Muslim. Just accept this fact and live with it. Why Qadianis want to be known as Muslim in not understandable.

Qadianis are known as MUSLIM in all secular countries. They are only banned in Islamic republics or dictatorships where state actively regulates people's religious affairs. In India, where Qadianism was born, they are still regarded as Muslims.
Ahmadiyya in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just be what you are and live with it. No one should kill a qaiani on him being non-Muslim. At the same time, qadianis must stop declaring themselves as Muslims and force others to call them Muslim.

Bullshit! Qadianis can call other Muslims kafir and other Muslims can call Qadianis kafir without forcing each other to do anything. Qadianis aren't forcing anyone. Its not upto the state to declare themselves non-Muslim forcibly!!!

our country was dirt poor back then and its dirt poor now…. most people live much easier lives now..

Lies:

During the 1960s, Pakistan was seen as a model of economic development around the world, and there was much praise for its economic progression. The capital Karachi was seen as an economic role model around the world, and there was much praise for the way its economy was progressing.

Economic history of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

do ahmedis consider us the rest of us muslims since we reject mirza ghulam ahmed??

Qadiani faith is dubious on this. They regard other Muslim sects for being Muslim because they believe in prophet Muhammad (PBUH). But they also regard them as kafir because other sects rejected promised Messiah claimed by Qadianis to be true Mahdi as prophesied by Muhammad (PBUH).
Mahdi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so three governors of pakistan were british whites???

Not only governors but Commander in Chief of Pakistan Army were also British during that period (1947-1951):
Chief of Army Staff (Pakistan) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

how could pakistanis make such a stupid mistake by putting three british whites as governors??

LOL. They didn't have competent people from their own people back then (they still don't)

well this topic has been debated to death on this forum without any agreement. i can see in you the enthusiasm to prove secularism as the foundational principle of a Muslim PAkistan. But unfortunately, any discussion on this topic has - more often than not - led towards more polarization than unity.

There is no discussion regarding the nature of Pakistani state after Jinnah's following speech:

There is no other solution. Now what shall we do? Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous, we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.

I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, theHindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shia's, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some states in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the nation.

Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state. Jinnah, August 11, 1947 –chairing the constituent assembly.

Secularism in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If Jinnah wanted to declare Qadianis Non-Muslim in the constitution and prevent them from holding any higher state office of his nation, why would he appoint a Qadiani as Pakistan's first foreign minister? According to some Western sources, he was also the one who wrote original Pakistan Declaration at Minar-e-Pakistan Lahore in 1940:
Muhammad Zafarullah Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So that's it. A Qadiani might be responsible for the draft that made Pakistan a historic reality. LOL
Lahore Resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dubious]

Yes, act like your prophet. Slaughter all Ahmedis, Qadianis, Shias and others who do not agree with your Wahhabi-Sunni worldview. LOL!

I have a lot to say about this statement alone....As for what the guy said it is kinda true just like Sunnis dont believe in certain things there ARE CERTAIN schools of thoughts who believe that if you dont believe in Mr.Mirza you are not Muslims and same goes for SOME Shia who believe if you dont pray on that black rock your prayer is not accepted (and when ur prayer is already in danger - then what else is left when ur 1st stance is broken?) I said SOME schools of thoughts NOT APPLICABLE TO ALL!

This form of thing is present in every sect declaring themselves holier than thou....

Remove Hudood Ordinance and Second Amendment. Only way Pakistan can progress in religious freedom

Hadd hai plz go read that Hudood thing it has been modified since some years now (since 2006)!

The Offence of Zina (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance 1979 described the offences of Zina(fornication and adultery) and zina bil jabbar (rape). They were defined separately in the Ordinance. Prior to the Women Protection (Criminal Laws Amendment) Act 2006, the Hudood Ordinance provided for two kinds of punishments: punishments under hadd under its section 8 or under Tazir under section 10.

Under hadd, "at least four Muslim adult male witnesses, about whom the court is satisfied, having regard to the requirements of tazkiyah al-shuhood, that they are truthful persons and abstain from major sins (kabair), give evidence as eye-witnesses of the act of penetration necessary to the offence."

No case could be proven under hadd due to the above stringent stipulation.

Punishments until now were awarded under the Tazir provision of the Hudood Ordinance.

The 2006 Act has now totally deleted zina bil jabbar from the Hudood Ordinance and inserted sections 375 and 376 for Rape and Punishment respectively in the PPC to replace it


So for rape you dont need 4 witnesses ...sadly very few people are aware of this change and keep saying nonsense regarding the pathetic law (Not pointing at you but it is the truth no one even knows what was changed and how to utilize it)!

do ahmedis consider us the rest of us muslims since we reject mirza ghulam ahmed??
@Norwegian @Jaanbaz @Akheilos @syedali73 @RazPaK

Yaar I am not sure...I have read (many times posted here on PDF as well) that it is in the book written by Mr. Mirza that if you dont accept him as a prophet you will not be (I am not sure of the word but I think forgiven or something as in you wont have a savior or something)...Since I didnt understand half of the stuff in the book I never bothered researching deeper...

But I have heard many Ahmedis state the direct opposite...so either its a misinterpretation or my lack of understanding....

'Last of the prophets' is not the only interpretation of that word:
Khatam an-Nabiyyin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am sorry but I am more interested in the word in Arabic Khattam literally means end / last/ not continuing...

 

[Jaanbaz]

LOL.

 

[Dubious]

LOL.

ki hoa? khairiat?

 

[Musafir117]

ki hoa? khairiat?

Do you have a good knowledge of Arabic?
like a native and specially in Quran and Ahadees? Khatam word is not such easy to define it's meaning, believe me or not I read pages and pages on it's debate. Personally I can't discuss it coz I know my Arabic level.

 

[Dubious]

Do you have a good knowledge of Arabic?
like a native and specially in Quran and Ahadees? Khatam word is not such easy to define it's meaning, believe me or not I read pages and pages on it's debate. Personally I can't discuss it coz I know my Arabic level.

My knowledge of Arabic is not sound...esp not as a language (unfortunately) I only took basic Arabic to A2 level in terms of language and I took multiple courses on Quranic Arabic...

My reply was for a layman not for a scholar as I am not one...

 

[Musafir117]

My knowledge of Arabic is not sound...esp not as a language (unfortunately) I only took basic Arabic to A2 level in terms of language and I took multiple courses on Quranic Arabic...

My reply was for a layman not for a scholar as I am not one...

I see, I was just asking coz I read your other thread about on Islam topic and your posts were kinda impressive.

 

[Dubious]

I see, I was just asking coz I read your other thread about on Islam topic and your posts were kinda impressive.

Thank you

Islam tells us to seek knowledge...

I recently read a post on my fb which was impressive...let me see if i can dig it up...

Found it enjoy the read:

"Kitnay arsay say Islamabad me hein?"
"Mujhe koi 25 saal ho gaye hein Islamabad me."

"Bajaur aur Islamabad k logon me kya farq hai?"
"Farq toh koi nahi hai logon me, udher bhi Pakistani bhai hein idher bhi wahi hein. Bas farq hai toh zehniat me hai."

"Zehniat me kesa farq?"
"Bas wahan k loog sirf deen daari me hein yahan k duniya daari me. Dono chezain he khatarnak hein. Lekin pechlay 25 saal me mene jo sekha hai wo ye hai k insan ko zinda rehne k liye dono he zaroori hai. Dunyawi taleem buhat zaroori hai kyun ke is k beghair rizq nahi kamaya ja sakta aur aglay jahan k liye deeni taleem zaroori hai."

"Koi paighaam dena chahain gay un logo ko jo ye parh rahay hein?"
"Paighaam toh mai bas yahi dena chahun ga k jitna ho sakay nayi jagaoun per jao, naye chezain daryaft karo, naye logo say milo. Is say insaan ka zehn khulta hai aur nayi chezain pta chalti hein. Mai agar Bajaur me he rehta toh mujhe Dunyawi taleem ka kabhi ilm na hota na he iski ehmiat ka. Is liye mene apne bachon ko pehlay hif'z karwaya ab school me daal diya hai ta'kay wo duniya aur akhirat k liye behtareen sabit hon."

-----------------------------------------------------------------

"How long have you been living in Islamabad for?"
"25 years."

"What's the difference between people of Bajaur and Islamabad?"
"There's no difference in people, there are Pakistani brothers there and same here. The only difference is in the mindsets."

"What sort of difference in mindsets?"
"People of Bajaur are only inclined towards religious knowledge while in Islamabad, its the opposite--which both are dangerous to a threatening degree. But what I've learnt in last 25 years is that there needs to be a balance between both. Worldly education is necessary to earn a living while religious knowledge is necessary for hereafter."

"If you could give a message to people reading this, what would that be?"
"My message would be to travel to new places, discover new things and meet new people. This is how your mind opens to new things. Had I been living in Bajaur, I would have no exposure to worldly education nor I'd have known it's importance. This is why I made my children learn Qur'an by heart first, and now I've admitted them in school so that they prove themselves to be best for both worlds."

 

[Jaanbaz]

ki hoa? khairiat?

Keep getting mentioned in threads I don't want to take part in. Specially when they mention me to start another religious topic.

 

[Dubious]

Keep getting mentioned in threads I don't want to take part in. Specially when they mention me to start another religious topic.

Aww sorry to hear that....wait who mentioned u this time?

 

[airmarshal]

@Norwegian your analogy with Islamic terrorist and Qadianis is very illogical. Sorry to say that.

Qadianis are not Muslim as they dont believe in finality of Prophet Mohammed. This is the end of the argument.

Terrorists who do terrorism in name of Islam are Muslims, unfortunately but they have perverted the religion. They are called takfiris in religious parlance. Definitely not be idolized or be models but a study of how we Muslims have collectively failed to safeguard our religion from perversion.